5 Things...

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    Feb 06, 2008 4:34 PM GMT
    The 5 Things That You Can Count On One Hand...That Gay Men Lack

    I know that this is a LONG time coming & I should have posted this a LOT sooner. The reason for the ever-so-late posting is because, as of January 4, 2008, I was officially declared a SNOB by guys who get a kick out of playing games. I tried giving someone I know a chance & well, chances are, he was just someone out to seek an obsession to help to pass the time. We had made plans to see and be with each other for NYE but that plan went up in smoke, oh well.icon_redface.gif Of all the things that I've seen in all of my years of being gay, it seems apparently clear to me, gay men lack totally lack them. You can take this any way you wanna see fit, whether you be cool about it or come out of a bag on me, hell, you can even call me a SNOB or jaded for it really doesn't make any difference. I can come to terms with the fact that gay men, period, will continue to play games, I just refuse to put up with it, therefore, I would rather be a snob. I have given chance after chance & the results, astoundingly, are still the same to me. It has NOTHING to do with cultural differences, whatsoever. I work 2 jobs, I go to school (I graduate this year, so EAT CROW, you hatin' ass chickenheads! LOLicon_razz.gif) & I workout 3-4 hours, 3x-4x a week, therefore, I do not have the time to be out looking for drama. The reason to say any of those words aforementioned, would mean that anyone would gladly take a cop-out to avoid hearing the no-holds barred truth. You will see the words appear in this after it is posted. It is totally your choice to figure out their meaning, next to the values & aspects of these words & their meaning(s)...

    1. Conformity to sociocultural standards of conduct and speech.

    2. The basing of ones actions on an internally consistent framework of principles. Depth of principles and adherence of each level to the next are key determining factors. One is said to have integrity to the extent that everything he does and believes is based on the same core set of values. While those values may change, it is their consistency with each other and with the person's actions that determine his integrity. This concept is directly linked to responsibility in that implementation spawning from principles is designed with a specific outcome in mind. When the action fails to achieve the desired effect, a change of principles is indicated. Accountability is achieved when a faulty principle is identified and changed to produce a more useful action.

    3. In humans involves the earning or the expectation of personal respect or esteem. To esteem persons or things is to give them a high value.

    4. (Also called self-worth, self-confidence, and self-respect) is a person's overall self-appraisal of their worth.

    5. Is also called or considered faithfulness or a devotion to a person or cause.

    Decency, Dignity, Self-Respect, Integrity & last but not least, LOYALTY!! Care to catch the meanings of these words?

    Now that this is and has been said, I have had my say & I see why I'm very single & LOVING it until Mr. Do Right comes along.

    This is my REALITY check & I am through.

    However, one more thing...Which road would you take? Being a snob who can do bad all by their selves or being someone who constantly deals with a broken heart from dealing with people who play games?
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    Feb 06, 2008 6:49 PM GMT
    TheWayItIs said
    However, one more thing...Which road would you take? Being a snob who can do bad all by their selves or being someone who constantly deals with a broken heart from being people who play games?


    Neither one of these is a good choice. I find your generalized descriptions a little insulting, but I can empathize with where you are coming from.
    I don't limit what I expect from someone simply based on their sexuality. I constantly work on breaking out of a mold a few people want to pour for me. People are full of surprises (good and bad) and that is what is interesting about putting yourself out there.
    It is impossible to avoid heartache, but don't underestimate the lessons to be learned there. Don't be so hard on yourself or others and allow for a learning curve. People don't come with a book of instructions.

    It would be sad to let a few assholes limit who you believe is out there. It would be even more sad if you became an asshole just so you could deal with them.
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    Feb 06, 2008 7:00 PM GMT
    mnjock2003 said[quote][cite]TheWayItIs said[/cite]
    However, one more thing...Which road would you take? Being a snob who can do bad all by their selves or being someone who constantly deals with a broken heart from being people who play games?


    Neither one of these is a good choice. I find your generalized descriptions a little insulting, but I can empathize with where you are coming from.
    I don't limit what I expect from someone simply based on their sexuality. I constantly work on breaking out of a mold a few people want to pour for me. People are full of surprises (good and bad) and that is what is interesting about putting yourself out there.
    It is impossible to avoid heartache, but don't underestimate the lessons to be learned there. Don't be so hard on yourself or others and allow for a learning curve. People don't come with a book of instructions.

    It would be sad to let a few assholes limit who you believe is out there. It would be even more sad if you became an asshole just so you could deal with them.
    [/quote]MNJOCK 2003


    The perfect answer now let's all give him a BIG HUG we have all been there at some stage and some more than other's!
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    Feb 06, 2008 7:11 PM GMT
    I think you are painting a very wide brush with this forum. I would feel better if you said what 5 things "men" lack not just gay men. Talk to straight women, straight men can play plenty of games.

    I find it very easy for gay men to take out their frustrations on other gay men when things are not going well. Gay men are as complicated as their straight counterparts, some gay men do reprehensible things (which you have mentioned), but I have met many who are responsible, loving, and live life to the best of their abilities.
  • dhinkansas

    Posts: 764

    Feb 06, 2008 7:24 PM GMT
    Me kinda simple in these parts and not sure I understand this entire message. Dog gone internet schooling.

    The wayitis sounds very smart and like he will go far in the world. It's a hard realization when the light bulb goes off that people do disappoint, they aren't always what they seem, and can be complete poo poo heads.

    Keep your own good characteristics close to your heart. If others can't see them, you are better off without them in any capacity.
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    Feb 06, 2008 8:32 PM GMT
    TheWayItIs is young and it appears that he has a lot of knowledge and intellect, but not a lot of experience. Since many of his experiences have been bad, it is easy to make sweeping generalizations about gay men. Sadly, I've found this to be the case with people in general.
    What needs to be done is the development of patience as well as the strength to maintain good and reasonable standards. That way you will eventually meet the 'right guy' and won't become bitter. It's true that you have to kiss a lot of toads to find a prince, but you must always remember that if you stop before you find the prince, you will falsely assume that all are toads.
    I've known and met several guys who've met my standards, but the fact that they weren't into me hasn't made me bitter. I've made some extraordinary friends that way.
    I will say that Gay Culture sometimes promotes certain stereotypes within the community, but anyone with half a brain should be able to easily see that there are gay men out there who are completely counter to the stereotypes whether its in one aspect or all all aspects. You just have to find them. They are out there. (Many are right here on RJ)
  • justjk

    Posts: 302

    Feb 06, 2008 8:38 PM GMT
    If i ranted and raved everytime i had been rejected there would not be enough space on anyone's computer to hold all that data!!! It happens to all of us, and it dosen't mean that every gay man or straight man for that matter is the same, i have every one of the values that you describe me as lacking if not more, so just deal with the rejection and move on
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    Feb 06, 2008 8:44 PM GMT
    jbedwardsI would feel better if you said what 5 things "men" lack not just gay men. Talk to straight women, straight men can play plenty of games.

    Life hands us questions with answers that we think are "not good enough" or even the "that's not an answer." deal. D.W.I. is all I can say. Life, my friend, is NOT all roses.

    Well, in my learnings, I've seen it more out of more gay men than anything else. This saying is true, you really don't know anyone UNTIL they show you who they are.

    Here's a saying that I've learned...

    Maya Angelou - "If someone shows you who they are, believe them."


    MnJock2003...you have someone; I, on the other hand, have spent 7 years as of April being single. How can you say heartache is hard to avoid? What is the LONGEST time period that you have spent being single? I just got tired of getting played and getting the short end of the stick. When they show me that they do not want to act right or be childish, I just simply leave them alone. They are grown, without a doubt. Isn't time that they checked the light bulb to see if it's working? Tricks & games are for kids.icon_rolleyes.gif

    Getting my priorities & keeping them together was just about the best thing to EVER come along for me. I've really no support system (mother, family), aside from some friends that I work out with from time to time. I am trying my damnedest to get far ahead in the world...Music, songwriting (everyone sings remixes these days), weightlifting, next to not struggling paycheck to paycheck, without losing what may be or may not be left of my sanity.icon_lol.gif

    All I can say is this...If I deal with guys who play games, then more than likely I'll turn into an uppity-nose asshole (Like that offends meicon_neutral.gif). You are right, dhinkansas, when it's all said & done, I am better off without them.

    JustJK...
    I can deal with the rejection...hence, I focus on my schoolwork & keeping my act together, by myself. If I go for the rewards by myself, I can keep to myself. Besides, it isn't about rejection, its about what gay men lack as far as what needs to be seen within us.
  • justjk

    Posts: 302

    Feb 06, 2008 8:55 PM GMT
    And just to let you know, i was with someone for 16 years though my world began and ended with him, trust me it dosen't if we can just learn how to be o.k. without having someone who we think "completes us" then we will all be better, and back in the mix after all that time, i know it's rough, but there is always a light at the end of the tunnel, dosen't mean the light will be held by brad pitt, but at least there's a light! to keep us from falling all over ourselves!
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    Feb 06, 2008 9:45 PM GMT
    justjk saidAnd just to let you know, i was with someone for 16 years though my world began and ended with him, trust me it doesn't if we can just learn how to be o.k. without having someone who we think "completes us" then we will all be better, and back in the mix after all that time, i know it's rough, but there is always a light at the end of the tunnel, doesn't mean the light will be held by brad pitt, but at least there's a light! to keep us from falling all over ourselves!


    Uh, let's see...first & foremost, justjk, I do not rely on a man to "complete me" or fill in the void for the sake of being alone. I know how to do bad by myself. And BTW, Brad Pitt (well, men, in general, who do not like to take upon proper hygiene), disgusts me.

    BGCat57...

    I have had my share & experiences of dealing with gay men. I wouldn't pull this straight out of my ass. Dealing with guys who aren't up to my standards are okay as friends, I just don't see myself compatible with them. I have managed to grow and keep good & reasonable (yes, even high) standards. It has gotten me more friends in the gym circuit than the social (chickenhead) club circuits, next in line to straight women as well as straight men. It is what it is. I can deal with that. I've YET to come across a potential on RJ here. Given what I've posted here as far as being labeled a "man-hater", I really cannot blame anyone. April will be approaching, hence year 7. Once it passes, single hood may be permanent.
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    Feb 06, 2008 10:06 PM GMT
    I can appreciate TheWayItIs that your life has not been a bed of roses. You have been single for 7 years? I was single for 8 1/2 years before I met my life partner and during that time I had to deal with becoming HIV+. During that time I developed certain ways of thinking that made it more difficult for me to make friends and get into relationships. I am not disputing that some gay men play games, but many do not, you just have not had the good fortune to meet them.
  • dhinkansas

    Posts: 764

    Feb 06, 2008 10:09 PM GMT
    It's ok to be single. I know you are discouraged with it though. I won't say you will find someone when you aren't looking, because that's too cliche' and I don't know whether or not it's a true statement. People do have faults, and I know that's different than a comparison to standards, and it's ok to hold the bar high for people you may become involved with. And I'm not saying this to be difficult or disrespectful, because I suspect you garnish a great deal of respect from those in your circle. Just make sure you aren't confusing faults with not meeeting certain standards. Singlehood is not a box of milk in the store...there's no expiration date on it. Be open, weed out people who aren't a good fit with you, enjoy your life, and see what happens if you leave the door slightly ajar. You might be surprised.
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    Feb 06, 2008 10:23 PM GMT
    I will say one thing to qualify my experience. I once went about 11 years not only without a relationship, but I dated one guy for two weeks during that time. Not long enough to 'get my heart broken.
    If you've been single for 7 years, then how can you have experience of having your heart broken. You have to be in a relationship for long enough to reach that point. It would be beyond dating. So I'm assuming that if that's not true, then the issue is that you've had your heart broken because you invested in a relationship that wasn't mutual. If that's the case, then the issue is one where you need to look inward to determine why your choosing 'the wrong guys'. You may be placing too much weight on aspects that have nothing to do with the quality of the relationship. (That's a sample guess - it could be any one of a hundred things.) Nevertheless, you need to look at the pattern of your actions to see if you seem to be constantly choosing men who not suitable and what's worse letting them break your heart.
    Love isn't a one way emotion. If you love someone who doesn't love you back, that's the same love as one has with "I love ice cream" or something similarly inanimate. When the ice cream is gone, you don't spend weeks moaning to friends or in a deep funk.
    It needs to be reciprocal to be true love.
    I have no doubt that you've had painful moments, and I'm not by any means dismissing them, I simply suggest that you look at your part in this.
    I know you think you've got a lot of experience, but anyone 40 or older would laugh at that. You're only 26 and you've had 'seven years' of experience. I was in a relationship for 14 which ended badly. I, and no doubt many other guys here, would say I've a little more experience and at my age, I know, it's limited.
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Feb 06, 2008 10:26 PM GMT
    How about 5 things that gay men possess that others don't?

    1. The ability to fully appreciate the fully human and intellectual qualities of women, divorced from sexual attraction.

    2. The ability to see almost any situation from the outside. Our "other" status enables us to see the forest most of the time, rather than the trees.

    3. The ability to create closer than blood relationships from groups of virtual strangers. We invented the phrase chosen family.

    4. Real empathy for victims of bigotry or other intolerance.

    5. The ability to break free of the need for conformity to the wider social construct in any situation.
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    Feb 06, 2008 10:29 PM GMT
    jarhead5536 said
    1. The ability to fully appreciate the fully human and intellectual qualities of women, divorced from sexual attraction.


    Maybe. Still won't get in the car with one behind the wheel though.
    KIDDING! Just kidding, just kidding....
  • gr8hands4you

    Posts: 117

    Feb 06, 2008 10:54 PM GMT
    If you all think gay men play games you havent been married to a woman or dated women. Let times that by 10! We have done our best to socialize them that way too. Even religion does its best to instill a lot less than perfect behavior towards one another and the sexes. Think of all the messed up things everybody sees on TV and in the movies and think that is normal behavior. I do agree that there are many messed up people in this world that don't have a clue how to treat other people decently. And for many people its just a power trip. Yes I mean they actually get off on being rude. Hey wonder why 60% of marriages end up in divorce and 20 to 30% of whats left needs help. I would say to all just be the best person you can be towards others and make that your happiness.
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:05 AM GMT
    BGCat57

    "If you've been single for 7 years, then how can you have experience of having your heart broken. You have to be in a relationship for long enough to reach that point. It would be beyond dating. So I'm assuming that if that's not true, then the issue is that you've had your heart broken because you invested in a relationship that wasn't mutual."

    I have one relationship that had a not-so amiable ending. Tears were shed and there are times that we BOTH hate each other, but given there are 2 little lights in our eyes, we have no other choice but to...GET ALONG for the sakes of an 11- & 8-year old. As much as we wanted to stay together, we didn't for the sake of their futures. Who wants to constantly deal with their kids' bigoted school officials because of what their parents do behind closed doors?

    Dealing with guys who say that I'm about this & I'm about that and then they just show their true colours (Being a player or just someone to get your time) in front of you...I was boldly told this: "Deal with it." "Get over it." Can you imagine seeing someone that you gave the time of day to locking lips with someone else other than you? Or when you think someone is decent, DESPITE anything, because you know that hes not perfect, sleeps with you and then he just says to you that sleeping with another man disgusts him? I had to learn for myself that he'll never admit to being a player. But it's whatever and I hope it helps him sleep at night. Also, for the first time in 2006, I was in love but he showed that he wanted to be a complete creep. So much for trying to get to know someone over a 7-month period. Then someone, again, that I was into, was telling me to lower my guard because it got "annoying." Lo & behold, he let 2 months pass with ME calling him, getting his voicemail constantly, me leaving the messages and him NEVER once to return a phone call. But hey, you're left with no other choice but to...Deal With It & move on, right?

    Simply stating, I'm just tired of getting the wool pulled over my eyes. Giving people chance, after chance, after chance just took too much work. Being a snob when it comes to dealing with guys who play games or who aren't about jack, period, just makes it easier.

    That's why I've made it my choice to be more serious about ANY agendas that I set forth at hand. Be it that I rarely smile, as you see in my pics, I have learned one thing-- Smile & Laugh once you got your agendas achieved because you know what they say--

    "He Who Laughs Last, Laughs The Hardest."icon_lol.gif

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    Feb 07, 2008 3:08 AM GMT
    I see the problem here. You meet a guy that has attributes that you like (whether they are physical, or personal is really irrelevant.) Then you either ignore the obvious signs of incompatibility or the fact that he's not really into you, with the expectation that he's going to change.
    If I dated someone who didn't return my third voice-mail or email would be dropped. I'd never go two weeks in a one sided conversation much less two months. You shouldn't either. As for a guy who says sleeping with another man disgusts him, if you don't see you're worth more than that, it's a problem you have to solve before you continue dating.
    A relationship can be hard work. It should NEVER be more work than pleasure.
    Your not a snob. I think your just insecure and trying to cover for it with attitude. With confidence (not arrogance), you'll be less likely to care what some guy, who doesn't care about you, thinks or does.
    I'm not sure I got my point across here, but I hope so.
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    Feb 07, 2008 9:31 PM GMT
    BGCat57...

    As for a guy who says sleeping with another man disgusts him, if you don't see you're worth more than that, it's a problem you have to solve before you continue dating.

    BGCat57, I did solve the problem...he showed what he really wanted & I am worth more than being someone that he can run to when he does or doesn't get his way with what's in the streets. I keep myself in better shape, as you've read here. And if anything more, I would be VERY insecure if I chose to put up with something like that just to have someone in my life to fill the void of being alone. I was raised with more sense than that. And if someone's not into me, then why make the effort to ask me to come home with them like they really have any plans to get to know me? As far as the asshole who led me on with the one-sided deal, he's trying his on his knees with the, "Baby, please" & he's about to get shut down permanently. I have given chances & I'm through doing it, altogether. Now that you mentioned insecure, are you pigeon-toed, bow-leggedicon_redface.gif? And were you ever the pudgy kid with the gap? Yes, I was, and still am, minus the gap and the pudgyness. Seeing past the ugly duckling phase & I overcame it. Well, still overcoming it.

    Anyone else have any other difficulties to get past or are still working on? Front of the line, please.
  • dhinkansas

    Posts: 764

    Feb 07, 2008 9:47 PM GMT
    It's hard to learn not to like the wrong guy. Am doing better after falling hard for ones in the past incapable or unwilling to feel anything more than "Can I come over tomorrow?" Liking the bad boy is a long, boring Lifetime network movie, and I've gotten better at not doing that.
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    Feb 07, 2008 10:20 PM GMT
    The things you say can, sadly, be ascribed to most people, men or women, and probably some dogs, cats and squirrels. People are complicated. Thoreau wrote "I am a parcel of vain strivings tied by a chance bond together." Some people are rats, but most of us have good qualities mixed with bad. I've been where you are, and I empathize, truly. But, please don't give up. Develop your mind and body to your own standards, as it seems you are trying to do, and you will attract the kinds of guys you want to meet.

    Best of luck.
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    Feb 08, 2008 7:32 AM GMT
    Methinks you just need a hug! icon_biggrin.gif

    I know... people can be so cruel sometimes. Don't let it get to you and get you jaded though. You'll just be turning into THEM. Don't worry about the snobs, they'll get what they deal sooner or later.

    And hey, I've been single for 22 years and a month. LOL
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    Feb 08, 2008 10:26 PM GMT
    gr8hands4you saidIf you all think gay men play games you haven't been married to a woman or dated women. Let's times that by 10! We have done our best to socialize them that way too. Even religion does its best to instill a lot less than perfect behavior towards one another and the sexes. Think of all the messed up things everybody sees on TV and in the movies and think that is normal behavior. I do agree that there are many messed up people in this world that don't have a clue how to treat other people decently. And for many people its just a power trip. Yes I mean they actually get off on being rude. Hey wonder why 60% of marriages end up in divorce and 20 to 30% of whats left needs help. I would say to all just be the best person you can be towards others and make that your happiness.


    Gr8Hands4You...

    I have dated women before & the only girls that I'll mess with are the ones the keep themselves in shape. Now that I have gotten into better shape, I would rather let the girls rub on my body, because they've always been good to me & well, apparently, you see that I get along with women more than I do with men in general. My cousin has been married 3 times and he has told me this:
    "A few things that you gotta face with when it comes to women, even in your camp, you gotta keep your eyes open at all times. Women are very sneaky, vindictive, they love you one minute, they hate you the next and their loyalty runs thin."

    Me, on the other hand, read the blogs that have been posted here on what I think of gay men and well, still to this day, gay men & the loyalty factor within them, it still runs transparent to me. Transparent (see-through or none at all) vs. thin...which would you prefer?