The 'Str8 acting" gay, the queen and everyone in between.

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    Feb 06, 2008 10:37 PM GMT
    I read this quote about perez hilton on a forum thread posted on here..and while I am not his biggest fan either, the tone sort of surprised me..
    "Hate hate hate hate him. Nelly, bitchy queens disgust me and set back our cause decades every time they open their mouths..."

    This post is not meant to attack him for saying it at all. The tone used appears in a lot of threads on here and that worries me.

    It struck me how little some people must know about gay history. It is not the Nelly queens that set you back at all, they were actually some of the only faces on the front lines fighting for your rights. Silence, hiding and homophobia will set your cause back. Here's to the queens that helped us get this far.

    Harvey Milk. 1930-1978
    Named by TIME magazine as one of the most important 100 People of the Century .Milk was part of the emergence of the gay community in San Francisco and America in the 1970s, a tireless organizer, small businessman, and politician. He ran for office 3 times before finally being elected in 1977 to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, where he was instrumental in passing that city's gay rights ordinance. He was also a great coalition-builder, forming alliances with other minority groups and achieving widespread acclaim. Milk's personal efforts were very important in defeating the anti-gay Briggs initiative in 1978, and there seemed to be no limits to what he could accomplish when he (and mayor George Moscone) were assasinated by conservative political rival Dan White. Harvey Milk's legacy continues on today as someone who stood proudly for who he was and what he believed in.

    Oscar Wilde 1854-1900
    The ultimate "nelly , bitchy queen)
    Often considered one of the most influential novelists and playwrights of Victorian London was imprisoned for his homosexual indescretions. He died penniless a few years after his release from prison.
    The sexual implications of Wilde's artistic and socialistic theories are also clear. If "pleasure" must be justified, only heterosexuality and reproduction can be allowed. But if pleasure can exist without justification (art, so to speak, for its own sake), homosexuality is not only not a vice, but a virtue. Sexual freedom then would in part exist when heterosexual activity is not linked to reproduction. By extension, women would only be free when reproduction was not demanded (or even expected) of them. Again and again in his plays and critical writings Wilde extolls the value of pleasure over simple usefulness and the importance of the individual action and impulse over the needs of society. Wilde's message is still radical and frightening now. In this age of "just say no," the constant eroding of the constitutional right to abortion and other reproductive rights, the attacks on gay sexuality and gay rights, the cutbacks in AIDS and safe education (and the insistence on promoting abstinence as the only "sure" way to prevent AIDS), Oscar Wilde's message of pleasure and individual freedom are as necessary as they were 100 years ago. But will they be heard? Victorian society responded to Wilde's threat by imprisoning him; we respond with victim-status sentimentalizing and pretending he is just another clever queen with a quip and an attitude.

    Stonewall patrons , Sylvia and neighbors june 28,1969
    Gay bars in the united states were routinely raided during the 50s and 60’s and patrons were arrested for kissing, holding hands and cross dressing.. The night of June 28th 1969 was different because ,while being arrested, a tranny named Sylvia Rivera was prodded by a nightstick and fought back with a bottle to the officers head. This started a night of violence and arrests throughout the neighborhood. This event inspired thousands of gays to march from Greenwich for central park demanding fair treatment. This is why most gay pride celebrations are held in June. We started coming out of hiding and demanding equal treatment

    ACT UP march 10,1987
    Started by Lary kramer in New york to devote all of their energy to political action during the AIDS crisis. Personally, I remember being scared of the in your face tactics of these people. They wore militint costumes and they were really angry.. and gay. However, thanks to them, we have greater access to experimental AIDS drugs and a coordinated national polics to fight the disease. They also devoted endless energy to dispell myths about AIDS and how it is transmitted.

    And i can’t forget the thousands of gays and lesbians that died in the holocaust or the gays being murdered all over the world for being out or living their life out in the open.

    These are just some of the major examples of “Nelly queens” furthering the equal treatment of all homosexuals in this, the united states of america. It would seem to me that it is the closet cases (married men cheating, self hating gays, "straight guys who like head from other dudes, etc) that are doing the damage by treating it as shameful rather than biological. Look at Larry craig and ted Haggert with their bathroom sex, drugs and rent boys. I am not advocating gays subscribe to gay stereotypes to make progress but for god sakes, the people who are on the front line and putting themselves out there, deserve a little respect and a kind word or two rather then hatred. It is damaging to tell little boys that they have to be afraid of that part of them is different and hide it. Growing up gay is hard enough if you are getting picked on by straight people, we shouldn't accept it as adults from other gay men. I used to be afraid of effeminate, queeny guys because my whole life I heard how bad it was. It wasn't until I worked at an AIDS shelter that I grew a pair and saw the value of just being yourself and not necessarily conforming.
    Cheers to the guys who see beauty in the spirits and minds of gay men. We do make the world a better place when we remember to celebrate our diversity and show a little compassion for others.
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    Feb 06, 2008 10:46 PM GMT
    Very well said.
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    Feb 06, 2008 11:58 PM GMT
    I was surprised at that as well, but, I think the author was probably more reacting to PH, even if that doesn't come across so clearly in his original post.

    This discussion has been up a few times at least in the past 6 months. It's always interesting.
  • jarhead5536

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    Feb 07, 2008 12:06 AM GMT
    I'll own up to being the guy that said that, and I meant it. Hilton is such a cartoonish stereotype that he's sickening. I know what happened at Stonewall, and we're all surely grateful for that, but he just grosses me out. Every time I see or hear him, all I can think is "is THAT what we want people to think about us?" Queeniness to that degree is just off-putting, and I don't condone it.

    Plus, he's just plain mean and catty. If he were a thoughtful, intelligent writer or reporter, I could stomach him a little more easily...
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:09 AM GMT
    When I first came out I thought "Finally! Everything is going to be fabulous from now on." Then I came to the sobering realization that most gay men are as tedious as straight guys and often, but not always, they have more excruciating tastes than their het brothers. What's a mo to do?
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:09 AM GMT
    If you are only attracted to masculine men, great, I can understand that. If you only like smooth guys, hairy guys, beards, bald etc... cool with me.
    I just don't get the group of gay guys that think we would be further along if all gay men were passable as straight. We would be easier to ignore,sure, but I don't think our lives would be any better or more meaningful or that we would have fuller protection under the law.
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:14 AM GMT
    PH can't be faulted for his mannerisms any more than you should be congratulated on yours. That he's a dirty little schmuck on the other hand, he should be condemned as should any dirty little schmuck. He should never be referenced by another gay man as repulsive for his queeniness any more than that gay man should be for his love of cock or ass. To be gay or bi and believe otherwise leaves you with a lot of self discovery that you should be so lucky to experience before you die.
  • jarhead5536

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    Feb 07, 2008 12:16 AM GMT
    mnjock,

    takin' it to email. Talk to you privately in a minute...
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:17 AM GMT
    McGay saidPH can't be faulted for his mannerisms any more than you should be congratulated on yours. That he's a dirty little schmuck on the other hand, he should be condemned as should any dirty little schmuck. He should never be referenced by another gay man as repulsive for his queeniness any more than that gay man should be for his love of cock or ass. To be gay or bi and believe otherwise leaves you with a lot of self discovery that you should be so lucky to experience before you die.



    I knew I liked you.
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:19 AM GMT
    Perez Hilton sets us back not because he's queeny, but because he is an asshole who lives to take others down and in general obsesses too much about celebrity.
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:21 AM GMT
    I've got no problems with queens. But. . .
    Isn't there something wrong with the term "straight acting"??
    A lot of gays, and I include myself, could be labelled "straight acting" just because we don't "girl out". It's not that I think I am "acting straight". This is who I am.

    I think "straight appearing" would be a more accurate term.

    If I were to put on all of the stereotypical gay mannerisms (and, really, there's nothing wrong with them), than actually I would be "gay acting." A gay man, trying to queer it up even further.
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:23 AM GMT
    XRuggerATX saidPerez Hilton sets us back not because he's queeny, but because he is an asshole who lives to take others down and in general obsesses too much about celebrity.

    Understood,. but this isn't a post about PH. it is about the belief (that some hold) that you have to be Str8 acting to be valuable or sexy etc. That all of the guys who act gay are detrimental to the gay rights movement. I just don't find that to be true. I would never attack someone for being too gay, but many do.
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:29 AM GMT
    The issue is one of "flamboyance". It's not even men behaving like women, because women don't behave like "queenie" men. It's a whole other category entirely. Butch women are more easily accepted than flamboyant men. Even among gay men. WTF? There's a place for everyone who's not harming someone else. Good grief, imagine the world of entertainment (which, obviously, where everyone here spends at least some time engaged) without the characteristics you find so loathesome. Elton John anyone. He was an open drag queen in the early and mid 70s. He just wore pants, but those outfits were ones to rival Cher's for fuck's sake. Still, his music slashed and burned and influenced everything you hear today (ok, except that nails on the blackboard guy from Creed ARGH!). T Rex anyone, David Bowie?!?!?! HELLO!?!?!?!?
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:30 AM GMT
    I participated in a similar forum on AfterElton regarding the Bridgestone tire ad during the Super Bowl (the one where Richard Simmons nearly gets run over).

    I have no problems with people being themselves, whether they are effeminate or super masculine. Where I get irritated is when people are acting out for whatever reason and seem phony. I don't put down effeminate men, they can be as heart-warming and lovable as so-called straight-acting gays. Bitchiness I can do without though, it usually shows a lack of respect for others. Then again there are some real macho gay guys that can be real jerks too.
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:38 AM GMT
    Aero saidWhen I first came out I thought "Finally! Everything is going to be fabulous from now on." Then I came to the sobering realization that most gay men are as tedious as straight guys and often, but not always, they have more excruciating tastes than their het brothers. What's a mo to do?



    Ha Ha... I felt exactly the same way. It's like fuck, I am afraid to hold a beer bottle the wrong way. I find all of the posturizing and pretending sad but a little hilarious. It's much more important to be yourself then to pretend to be something you aren't ever going to be.
    I'm an old bird, so I can just get on with my life without worrying about it much. I feel bad for the young gay guys who are growing up with manhunt and craigslist and everyone on there using the term "STR8 acting" as if that is the most appealing attribute a gay guy can have.
    we are being deprived of our rich history and I think our own fear of looking gay is sending the wrong message .

    Discrimination on a gay site or a gay bar for being too gay is just wrong.
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:44 AM GMT
    Lots of good points, I've got to jump in.

    I do find the term "straight acting" offensive. When I see the term "straight acting" and "masculine" multiple times in a profile it actually raises red flags for me.

    I'm gay; you're gay. In my opinion "Straight acting" infers that being or acting straight is the ideal and that being or acting gay is somehow inferior.

    I agree with NNJfitandbi that it goes to authenticity. I have some dear gay friends who act like women; they are more effeminate than many women I know. I'm certain they can't "act" any other way; that is who they are. I never get the impression they are acting or "gaying it up" to borrow a term from above. They are very real.

    Before I came out, I too had issues (same as some in this string) with Nelly, bitchy queens, but that was my problem and not theirs. I got over it, and you should too.
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    Feb 07, 2008 12:52 AM GMT
    I agree with the guys who talked about authenticity and the misuse of the term "straight-acting." It's so funny how many men I have met who also would label themselves masculine or "butch" but who are buff guys with the softest most finessed and sometimes bitchy/queeny personalities.

    Why do we try so hard to separate ourselves from being gay but then we are for gay rights. I agree I'm much more attracted to men who tend to be more masculine, but labeling oneself is misleading, because what you think of yourself subjectively might be completely different than what many others think of you. Some people were completely shocked when I came out and others were like, "DUH". haha. The most balanced and perfect person would be both feminine and masculine, both inwardly and outwardly. Saying you are "straight-acting" or "masculine" often makes me wonder if they are just overcompensating for their own insecurities and their disapproval of flamboyant or more feminine gay men. I guess I shouldn't judge though, I've told people the same thing. I guess we have to use labels to a degree.
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    Feb 07, 2008 1:00 AM GMT
    Thanks Mnjock for a VERY cool post. As a gay guy who was extremely homophobic when I first came out, I understand the reaction that some gay guys have to "bitchy, nelly queens." I used to have a similar reaction because I was raised in a very straight world where that sort of behaviour was very looked down upon. Probably less because it was "gay" and more because it was "not masculine" (that's a whole 'nother can o' worms.)

    It took the whole spectrum of our community to bring change to our laws and we're still doing it. Everone from the loud, bitchy, nelly ones all the way to the butch, conservative, boy-next doors helped break down the doors in their own ways. The nelly, loud annoying ones refused to lay down and "be like the rest". The "straight acting ones" confused the hell out of people and surprised many into accepting that "gay does not mean feminine or nelly."

    My point is that ALL OF US HAVE HELPED.

    I came to realize that after a few years of being gay and out. I realized that I wasn't attracted to "nelly queens" as personal friends that much because frankly, I don't know too many of them who do a lot of outdoor sports and I don't like gossip, showtunes, and "girl talk." But I sure as hell appreciate the fact that they're LOUD and OUT and won't shut the hell up just to make others more comfortable. More power to them. Oddly, I have always felt "lucky" that I pass as a straight guy. Because I'm not sure I have the balls to be a flamboyant gay guy who has to deal with society's response everywhere he goes!! So good on them for getting out and living their life proudly!

    So I'm with you mnjock, if it weren't for the loud, obnoxious, visible ones that wouldn't go back in the closet, wouldn't hide, and wouldn't compromise, I don't think we would be where we are today. But I feel that way about ALL of our sub-tribes. I guess I'm just thankful that we've all contributed in our own way, whether that is by "just living your life" quietly and having people say, "I really like him...and did you know he's gay?" or whether that is by prancing about in rainbow outfits at every opportunity and shouting from the rooftops. All of us have helped change a few minds.

    As for Jarhead, well, I have only this to say. I don't know who Perez Hilton is - I have never heard of him. But from the forum here, it sounds like he's a bitchy, nelly, loud, catty, gossipy, and very very very gay queeny guy. Okay.

    I guess I'd celebrate the very very gay part and ignore him for being bitchy, catty, and celebrity focused.

    Saying that he "grosses you out" and that he's "sickening" and that they "set back our cause decades every time they open their mouths" and that you don't want people thinking that that represents you...wow.
    That puts you squarely into the "Let's be more likeable and invisible so that we're more accepted" club.

    By making that statement, you're prioritizing your ego and fear of what people will think about YOU over his right to express himself freely in whatever way he wishes. Seems like an odd priority to me.

    You're also ignoring the valuable contribution that "those nelly queens" have made (and continue to make) to the cause.

    Will they turn some people off? Sure. But hopefully then those people will meet you, really connect with you, and will have to rethink their assumptions about homosexuality when they have to reconcile the conflict between "hating queenie gay guys" and "liking this cool 'normal' guy who seemed really awesome...but dude...he's gay!!?!?!?"

    So try to lighten up. It's ALL of us that counts, not SOME of us.

    (This would have been shorter but I didn't have enough time to edit it down...)
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    Feb 07, 2008 1:20 AM GMT
    Your right there is a large percentage of us that do know our history!

    Being a former member of ACT-UP! I will always speak out against those who is a disservice to humanity period.


    One of my college papers on Harvey Milk/Mascone and how Dan White was aquitted on the now famous"TWINKIE"
    defense. What a joke.

    In PH case I just do not like what he represents as far as his message as journalist eh!

    His mannerism are so not this issue.


    SPOT ON DUDE!

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    Feb 07, 2008 1:25 AM GMT
    McGay saidPH can't be faulted for his mannerisms any more than you should be congratulated on yours. That he's a dirty little schmuck on the other hand, he should be condemned as should any dirty little schmuck. He should never be referenced by another gay man as repulsive for his queeniness any more than that gay man should be for his love of cock or ass. To be gay or bi and believe otherwise leaves you with a lot of self discovery that you should be so lucky to experience before you die.


    This is why I luv ya Mcgayicon_wink.gif
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    Feb 07, 2008 1:34 AM GMT
    outdoorathlete said

    Saying that he "grosses you out" and that he's "sickening" and that they "set back our cause decades every time they open their mouths" and that you don't want people thinking that that represents you...wow.
    That puts you squarely into the "Let's be more likeable and invisible so that we're more accepted" club.

    By making that statement, you're prioritizing your ego and fear of what people will think about YOU over his right to express himself freely in whatever way he wishes. Seems like an odd priority to me.



    Very well said.
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    Feb 07, 2008 1:36 AM GMT
    mnjock: brilliant post. One of the best I've read recently. I'm gonna say no more, because you've really said everything that needs to be said.
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    Feb 07, 2008 1:39 AM GMT
    Ducky44 saidBeing a former member of ACT-UP! I will always speak out against those who is a disservice to humanity period.


    Hmm, Ducky, were you one of Mona's boys here in Atlanta?


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    Feb 07, 2008 1:46 AM GMT
    As if we all don't experience enough homophobia we have to become critical of our own gay brothers. Be it a leather queen, a drag queen, a masculine gym guy or a perez Hilton we should all be tolerant of each other. Perez Hilton hasn't set the gay cause back any more than gay men who have to advertise they are straight acting. Interestingly enough realjock.com advertises on perezhilton.com
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    Feb 07, 2008 1:54 AM GMT
    I put this in the "what is you biggest turnoff concerning other guys" thread, but I think this is a fair and accurate characterization of some of the more homophobic homos I've observed on here. I view it as a case of severe Double Y Syndrome with touch of Trisomy 21.

    GRUNT
    "Me manly man!
    SNIFF
    Me like only manly man!
    SCRATCH
    Girly man BAD! BAD BAD BAD!!!
    FART
    Me HATE girly man! HATE HATE HATE!!!
    SNIFF
    Me tell you again me very VERY manly MANLY man!
    GRUNT
    You think me manly man, right?
    GRATUITOUS CHEST POUNDING
    Me say you, you think me manly man RIGHT?!?!
    SCRATCH
    Do these jeans make me manly man butt look too big?
    FART
    Me mention me manly man, right?"