Crises Of Capitalism

  • metta

    Posts: 39089

    Jul 05, 2010 9:43 PM GMT






    (****ducks for cover****)
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    Jul 05, 2010 11:28 PM GMT
    That was pretty good!
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    Jul 05, 2010 11:44 PM GMT
    RSA animate is the sh-t!!
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    Jul 05, 2010 11:45 PM GMT
    It reminded me of being in college. What I like about this is less about having a "revolution" and instead having a paradigm shift (yeah yeah, 90s word. Get over it) and start THINKING about what's going on. The only way way to see where to go is to see where we've been and discuss it rationally.
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    Jul 05, 2010 11:57 PM GMT
    Here is the (two-pronged) starting point for a rational discussion of capitalism:

    41JX8FMGNZL._SL500_.jpg

    Hayek1.jpg
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    Jul 06, 2010 1:12 AM GMT
    I'll begin spoon-feeding. It's ok, I don't mind, it's no trouble at all:

    Liberty

    "Equality of the general rules of law and conduct, however, is the only kind of equality conducive to liberty and the only equality which we can secure without destroying liberty. Not only has liberty nothing to do with any other sort of equality, but it is even bound to produce inequality in many respects. This is the necessary result and part of the justification of individual liberty: If the result of individual liberty did not demonstrate that some manners of living are more successful than others, much of the case for it would vanish."
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    Jul 06, 2010 2:28 AM GMT
    jprichva saidIt's hilarious that you actually think Hayek has anything worthwhile to say.

    Revealing, too. Try 'Winnie the Pooh' for a more adult discussion next time.


    adult discussion - LOL - did you watch that stupid video?

    So you prefer silly YouTube videos like this one? Do you think "The Story of Stuff" is also brilliant?
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    Jul 06, 2010 2:41 AM GMT
    jprichva saidIt's hilarious that you actually think Hayek has anything worthwhile to say.

    It's tragic that anybody still thinks Marx had anything worthwhile to say.
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    Jul 06, 2010 2:57 AM GMT
    TexDef07 said
    jprichva saidIt's hilarious that you actually think Hayek has anything worthwhile to say.

    It's tragic that anybody still thinks Marx had anything worthwhile to say.


    Actually, he does. But the unfortunate fact is that even when Marx was right, he was wrong.

    I will again quote Hayek (who, as we know, has nothing valid to say) quoting Eastman, who was considering Marx:

    "It is pathetic, yet at the same time encouraging, to find as prominent an old communist as Max Eastman rediscovering this truth:

    'It seems obvious to me now--though I have been slow, I must say, in coming to the conclusion--that the institution of private property is one of the main things that have given man that limited amount of free-and-equalness that Marx hoped to render infinite by abolishing this institution. Strangely enough Marx was the first to see this. He is the one who informed us, looking backwards, that the evolution of private capitalism with its free market had been a precondition for the evolution of all our democratic freedoms. It never occurred to him, looking forward, that if this was so, these other freedoms might disappear with the abolition of the free market.' "

    (Hayek, The Road to Serfdom, p. 136, from Eastman, "Socialism Doesn't Jibe With Human Nature," July, 1941.)

    Personally, I think it did occur to Marx, but in his typically boneheaded fashion, he simply wished it away and got pissy with anyone who would dare point out such a flaw in his logic.


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    Jul 06, 2010 3:16 AM GMT
    JackBlair saidI'll begin spoon-feeding. It's ok, I don't mind, it's no trouble at all:

    Liberty

    "Equality of the general rules of law and conduct, however, is the only kind of equality conducive to liberty and the only equality which we can secure without destroying liberty. Not only has liberty nothing to do with any other sort of equality, but it is even bound to produce inequality in many respects. This is the necessary result and part of the justification of individual liberty: If the result of individual liberty did not demonstrate that some manners of living are more successful than others, much of the case for it would vanish."


    Troll warning Pictures, Images and Photos
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    Jul 06, 2010 3:31 AM GMT
    jprichva saidIt's hilarious that you actually think Hayek has anything worthwhile to say.

    Revealing, too. Try 'Winnie the Pooh' for a more adult discussion next time.


    The "road to serfdom" as outlined by Hayek is now taking the global economy down one of two paths:

    Painful austerity plans and deflation that salvage what’s left of today’s currency system by promoting savings and encouraging new capital formation; or endless stimulus injections into economies with the promise of austerity once the economy recovers.

    The second path one is more likely I think because it’s more politically popular especially once the European pro-austerity camp discovers just how addicted their economies are to the welfare state. Hopefully, a critical mass of people who value freedom over the illusion of economic security can move to wean us off today’s frighteningly powerful roles for governments and central banks.

    Based on the decisions we’ve seen in recent years (decisions driven mostly by political considerations) I’m not holding out much hope at this point.

    Most Western economies are now thoroughly addicted to government spending. Each fiscal and monetary injection into zombie banks will likely have to be larger in order to offset the withdrawal symptoms of losing the last stimulus plan.

    Entrepreneurs figure this game out and gradually withdraw from participating in the economy in a healthy, productive manner. This loss of entrepreneur confidence in the system will ultimately accelerate the demise of all paper currencies.



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    Jul 06, 2010 3:40 AM GMT
    Tom - I agree with you, but it may be even more bleak than that.

    Many European nations are pulling back on their social welfare and enacting "austerity measures," but without a fundamental change in basic policy, I fear it is for naught.

    Even the phrase "austerity measures" tells me that this is only temporary, that the Euro governments fully intend to stick with anti-growth policies.
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    Jul 06, 2010 4:02 AM GMT
    JackBlair saidTom - I agree with you, but it may be even more bleak than that.

    Many European nations are pulling back on their social welfare and enacting "austerity measures," but without a fundamental change in basic policy, I fear it is for naught.

    Even the phrase "austerity measures" tells me that this is only temporary, that the Euro governments fully intend to stick with anti-growth policies.


    True that. And neither governments nor their economic advisors can make the bad debt disappear. They know that as well as we do. All their sweating and grunting has another purpose - to decide who gets stuck holding the bag.

    Taxpayers, for example. That is the general drift of the proposal. "Austerity" as they call it, means higher taxes, fewer services, and bailouts of the financial sector. The big banks won't pay for their mistakes. The public will. Martin Wolf and Paul Krugman are wrong about most things, but they're probably right about the side effects of this bitter medicine; it will probably deepen and prolong the slump. It will cause a third depression says Krugman.

    On the other hand, Krugman, Wolf and all other neo-Keynesians have a bad proposal of their own.

    Governments are obsessing about inflation when the real threat is deflation, preaching the need for belt-tightening when the real problem is inadequate spending says Krugman.

    If too little spending were the real problem it would invite the most agreeable fix since sex therapy haha. Every government would lend a hand. But, the real problem is the opposite. It is the consequence of too much spending - debt. More government spending means more debt.

    Who will pay it?

    Taxpayers? Consumers? Savers? Investors? Lenders? The young? The old? Nobody knows for sure I don't think. But everybody is surely going to find out.


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    Jul 06, 2010 4:12 AM GMT
    jprichva saidIf the policies you prefer are ever enacted, the result will not be the prosperity you would love to believe will occur. It will be world-wide meltdown.

    What we're seeing now is just the trailer. The main feature is coming. And no, this depression isn't the result of the past 18 months' of policies. It is from the past 30 years of the nonsense of Chicago-school 'economics'.


    True 'dat, Jay.

    Anyone on here who thinks Marx's theories have failed - despite that fact that they are dead on for any thinking person - needs to be reminded that Miltonian economics not only crashed and burned but has wrecked more economies than all other theories combined.
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    Jul 06, 2010 6:20 AM GMT
    jprichva saidIt's hilarious that you actually think Hayek has anything worthwhile to say.

    Revealing, too. Try 'Winnie the Pooh' for a more adult discussion next time.


    Hayek won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1974. His opinions do at least have SOME merit.
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    Jul 06, 2010 6:24 AM GMT
    JackBlair said Do you think "The Story of Stuff" is also brilliant?


    i fuckin love that film! icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jul 06, 2010 6:27 AM GMT
    Christian73 said
    jprichva saidIf the policies you prefer are ever enacted, the result will not be the prosperity you would love to believe will occur. It will be world-wide meltdown.

    What we're seeing now is just the trailer. The main feature is coming. And no, this depression isn't the result of the past 18 months' of policies. It is from the past 30 years of the nonsense of Chicago-school 'economics'.


    True 'dat, Jay.

    Anyone on here who thinks Marx's theories have failed - despite that fact that they are dead on for any thinking person - needs to be reminded that Miltonian economics not only crashed and burned but has wrecked more economies than all other theories combined.


    And I would say that's a false dichotomy. Milton Friedman was what is commonly called a Moneterist (or a member of the Chicago School of Economic Thought). Hayek was an adherent to the Austrian School and would strongly disagree with Milton on a whole host of issues, especially monetary policy.
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    Jul 06, 2010 6:30 AM GMT
    tridenttwist said
    jprichva saidIt's hilarious that you actually think Hayek has anything worthwhile to say.

    Revealing, too. Try 'Winnie the Pooh' for a more adult discussion next time.


    Hayek won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1974. His opinions do at least have SOME merit.


    Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize... but some people think everything he says is wrong and most admit that as yet he has contributed little of substance to world peace...
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    Jul 06, 2010 7:07 AM GMT
    Lostboy said
    tridenttwist said
    jprichva saidIt's hilarious that you actually think Hayek has anything worthwhile to say.

    Revealing, too. Try 'Winnie the Pooh' for a more adult discussion next time.


    Hayek won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1974. His opinions do at least have SOME merit.


    Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize... but some people think everything he says is wrong and most admit that as yet he has contributed little of substance to world peace...


    I agree about Obama (to an extent), except the Nobel Prize in Economics is for a major contribution to an academic subject, which can only be attained by doing something significant in a field of study. The Nobel Peace Prize isn't quite the same. Paul Krugman, for instance, won for economics too and I strongly disagree with his economics. But I admit he is at least worthy of some contemplation merely for being such a large player in the field.
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    Jul 06, 2010 12:03 PM GMT
    Christian73 said Anyone on here who thinks Marx's theories have failed - despite that fact that they are dead on for any thinking person - needs to be reminded that Miltonian economics not only crashed and burned but has wrecked more economies than all other theories combined.

    Anyone on here who thinks Marx's theories worked needs to be reminded of the millions shot, starved to death, or sent to the gulag in the name of socialism.
    Anyone who thinks Marx's theories worked should do a simple reality check by comparing China under Mao with China today and ask any Chinese which they prefer.
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    Jul 06, 2010 12:12 PM GMT
    jprichva said Nowhere in Marx is Stalinism or Pol Pot-ism imagined, let alone justified.

    Judging by their writings, Stalin and Mao thought so. As did their victims.
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    Jul 06, 2010 12:19 PM GMT
    All this far left vs. far right blather aside, I think the video did have a point that we need a bit of a dialogue change. Economics, as interesting as it is, is mostly just microeconomics and rational-choice modeling, but it would be more fruitful to pursue macroeconomics more than we have and further the bounded-rationality models.

    It's hardly an original call, I know icon_sad.gif
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    Jul 06, 2010 12:32 PM GMT
    TexDef07 said

    Anyone on here who thinks Marx's theories worked needs to be reminded of the millions shot, starved to death, or sent to the gulag in the name of socialism.
    Anyone who thinks Marx's theories worked should do a simple reality check by comparing China under Mao with China today and ask any Chinese which they prefer.


    Anyone who thinks Jesus´s teaching is true needs to be reminded of the atrocities perpetuated by societies calling themselves Christian. The logic is the same. Hell, blame Nazisim on Jesus. Why not?