Carbs of DOOOOM

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    Feb 10, 2008 5:43 PM GMT
    So, in the past week or two, I’ve had several people tell me, online and in person, that the body stores bread as fat. Bread in particular. For awhile now, I’ve been having a slice of 100% whole grain with my whey protein shake after workouts, and I’ll often have a slice of bread with olive oil with lunch or dinner. So, I wanted to get the RJ consensus – am I hindering my core definition?

    I don’t suppose there are any other low- to moderate-glycemic index carb sources that are as easy (and as cheap) as taking a slice of bread out of the fridge? Should I switch to apples, or...?
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    Feb 10, 2008 6:24 PM GMT
    100% whole grain breads should be fine. For the longest time I was a victim of the Atkins "Carbs are the Devil" mentality. The truth is that whole grains in moderation are good for you and are lower on the glycemic index that white bread. My general rule of thumb is "if it's white, it ain't right" meaning products made with white flour, refined sugar and potatoes (sweet potatoes are okay). I know I'm going to catch hell on the potatoes comment, so bring it!
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    Feb 10, 2008 6:56 PM GMT
    As I understand it, the carbs you have with a protein shake, right after weight training, are largely sent into the muscles to replenish glycogen. Right after a workout is the one time I don't worry about the nature of the carbs I'm eating. There's an older crowd at the rec center that gets together in the early morning for coffee and exercise, and once in a while they leave out a box of donuts, left over from celebrating a birthday. Even though I don't even eat wheat, for the most part, I usually indulge myself. And, my trainer always grabs a donut for after his own workout.

  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Feb 10, 2008 7:05 PM GMT
    When it comes to carbs, I think the important thing is know the difference between empty (sugar) carbs and enriched/helpful carbs.

    Take a look at the ingredients and values and see what the fiber content is compared to the carb count, and look at what vitamins and minerals are.
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    Feb 10, 2008 7:15 PM GMT
    Dude, you're so thin that you NEED some fat. You're skin and bones.

    You can study up on nutrition (frankly there's a lot of quacks and anything worth doing should be worth doing well) by googling on nutrition and how it works. There's SO MUCH information about this stuff online that it's a real easy to study up on.

    Insulin shuttles nutrition (amino acids and carbon chains...basically) in and out of the cell. When you eat, your blood sugar level when eating, and what you eat, determine whether nutrition gets utilized, or shuttled into storage.

    E.g. a fat person may eat fewer calories than they need, and feel hungry, but, they eat the wrong thing. They starve all day, let's say (which is typical), and then they binge on something like chocolate cake. The icing on the cake is nothing more than Crisco grease, food coloring and large amounts of sugar...THAT...causes an insulin response which says....take whatever I just ate and STORE IT. So, the fat person isn't getting nourished, but, instead, they are storing even more fat. Fat does NOT burn calories, period, as muscle does, even at rest, so fat folks walk around with the coat of lard because they eat the wrong things at the wrong time.

    In your case, you're very thin, and unless you drive your insulin up with fast gyclemic index foods, you sure aren't going to get fat. You're not getting enough to eat. STOP with that line of thinking. You EAT; EAT UNTIL IT HURTS; EAT EXTRA.

    Want to stay lean? Lift weights! Resistance training is the ONLY exercise that increase your BMR, lean muscle mass, and strengthens your bones, AS YOU GROW OLDER. Want to stay lean? EAT! The saying goes, "fuel the furnace."

    When you starve, you train your body how to become a fat-storing machine. That's why fat folks fail in diet. They don't understand metabolic activation.

    In your case, EAT, eat, eat. Do resistance training. Bread is NOT going to make you fat when you're undernourished, and under-eating. Only if you douse it in sugar, and invoke an insulin response will it make you fat...otherwise, it's going to help you get healthier.

    In addition to your bread, post workout, throw some grits, oatmeal, farina, brown rice, or some other slow carb / low glycemic index food in there along with some water. You do that a minimum of five times a day, and you'll see some progress. Post workout, a faster carb like white rice, and any fruit juice, are just what your body needs to be replenished in the "golden hour."

    Quit worrying about getting fat.

    I usually don't pull bread out of my diet until about 20 weeks out from the show.

    YOU need calories. You're skin and bones.

    Bring your carbs UP. Eat about 50 grams of carbs, at each setting, or even more, a minimum of five times a day. Instead of one piece of bread, you eat two.

    Carbs are protein sparing. Glucose is your body's preferred fuel. Give it the glucose it needs to be healthy and strong.

    Eat about 40 to 50 grams of protein at each meal, a minimum of four times a day.

    Eat good fat: peanut butter, almond butter, nuts, avocados, oily fish. This will help you stay healthy.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 10, 2008 8:57 PM GMT
    Satyricon331, seriously LISTEN to chuckystud!!!
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    Feb 10, 2008 9:02 PM GMT
    Wow, the way Chuckles talks you would think you're starving Ethiopian baby with flies circling you. If you want to bulk up, go for it, but don't do it because some knuckle dragging ape thinks you're too skinny. Thin is hoticon_wink.gif
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    Feb 10, 2008 9:21 PM GMT
    Satyricon331 saidSo, in the past week or two, I’ve had several people tell me, online and in person, that the body stores bread as fat. Bread in particular. For awhile now, I’ve been having a slice of 100% whole grain with my whey protein shake after workouts, and I’ll often have a slice of bread with olive oil with lunch or dinner. So, I wanted to get the RJ consensus – am I hindering my core definition?

    I don’t suppose there are any other low- to moderate-glycemic index carb sources that are as easy (and as cheap) as taking a slice of bread out of the fridge? Should I switch to apples, or...?


    Dude your a twig. what are you so worried about?
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    Feb 10, 2008 10:29 PM GMT
    As long as you're eating 100% whole wheat or whole grain, you're fine, I would think. I agree about avoiding white bread, white flour, etc., that's no good.

    Just keep eating the good stuff. You mentioned apples. I try to eat one of those every day. I also have steel-cut oatmeal almost every morning, and put blueberries or strawberries in them, along with some walnuts. That's good, also with some orange juice.

    It sounds like you're trying to bulk up, which is fine. I think, though, that you are a "small-boned" guy like me; I've always had trouble putting on weight. So if that's the case, consider this: A guy who weighs 140-150 lbs who is cut and defined looks great, IMO every bit as good as a 200-lb guy who is cut, and WAY better than a 200-lb guy who may be bulky but not cut. Also, a defined guy at 140 looks bigger than he actually is anyway. People who try to guess my weight usually think I'm 160 (I wish !!)

    So keep plugging away, don't worry if your gains take time -- and in the meantime, be consoled by the fact that, really, you look excellent right now. Just always strive to be better, and if you can gain another 10-20, and it's good definition -- fantastic!

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    Feb 10, 2008 10:36 PM GMT
    Your body will store any food as fat if it has more calories than it needs.
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    Feb 10, 2008 11:03 PM GMT
    Certain inapposite commentary notwithstanding, it sounds like whole grain bread isn't something to worry about. I really appreciate the constructive comments. Thanks, guys! icon_smile.gif
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    Feb 11, 2008 1:27 AM GMT
    Chuck's a fucking genious when it comes to this shit, guys... I need to put up some before and after pics, I used to be skinny as hell, but with a little diet advice, I gained 50lbs and look like a fucking underwear model.
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    Feb 11, 2008 3:46 AM GMT
    Fuck Logan...LOL...you're gonna' get on the Real Jock Shitlist.

    Thanks for your kind words....200# here we come Logan!

    People don't always like truth, but, it is what it is. You have to execute a plan. It's all just science.

    To bad they keep taking down that one pic, huh?

    Anyway, don't worry about the bread. You'll be fine.

    logan_september1_rotated.jpg

    logan_stud_cropped_black_box.jpg

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 11, 2008 7:29 AM GMT
    carbs are energy carbs are essential some are better than others but at the end of the day carbs are never the enemy.

    Excess calories are stored as fat be it protein, carbs or fat by nature.

    as for drinking shakes after a session well its less about what you ate then and more about what you ate 3 hours before, digestion is a long old process and it is more about replenishment than some instant tap to top up the muscles
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    Feb 11, 2008 8:20 PM GMT
    bfg1 said

    Excess calories are stored as fat be it protein, carbs or fat by nature.



    Not quite. Your body has a MUCH harder time converting protein to fat, because protein is being used to repair your body and protein is not easily stored as fat. That's why muscle-building diets recommend you take in your bodyweight (or more) in protein. I normally take in 200-300 grams of quality protein a day without increasing my bodyfat.

    The speed which your body stores carbs as fat or turns them into energy depends on the type of carb.

    And fat...well, your body NEEDS fat. Vitamins E and K are only fat-soluble. Good fats (such as from nuts, olive oil, and fish) are a better source of energy than carbs and have a positive effect on your cardiovascular system.
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    Feb 11, 2008 8:26 PM GMT
    LatinMuscleSF said[quote][cite]bfg1 said[/cite]

    Excess calories are stored as fat be it protein, carbs or fat by nature.



    Not quite. Your body has a MUCH harder time converting protein to fat, because protein is being used to repair your body and protein is not easily stored as fat. That's why muscle-building diets recommend you take in your bodyweight (or more) in protein. I normally take in 200-300 grams of quality protein a day without increasing my bodyfat.

    The speed which your body stores carbs as fat or turns them into energy depends on the type of carb.

    And fat...well, your body NEEDS fat. Vitamins E and K are only fat-soluble. Good fats (such as from nuts, olive oil, and fish) are a better source of energy than carbs and have a positive effect on your cardiovascular system.[/quote]

    errr quite if there is no excess over and above what the body requires to build or maintain no fat will be stored.

    If there is excess then you are right that excess will be from the opposing operation to fat loss ie the easiest substance stored: carbs, fat and then protein

    The only reason your body does not convert that protein to fat is its not excess over and above your bodies muscle building capacity Its exactly the misinformation that you have just put across that leads to obesity through ignorance

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    Feb 11, 2008 8:35 PM GMT
    at the end of teh day satyricon we are talking optimal carb sources not good or bad.

    the question you need to ask yourself is this: do you enjoy eating bread and if by avoiding it is it likely you will not last with your eating plan long term
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    Feb 11, 2008 8:50 PM GMT
    bfg1, keep talking....

    Good stuff.

    Stuff I know intuitively from years of training, and being around it, and stuff other folks can read, but, are to lazy to.
  • USMCjock

    Posts: 89

    Feb 11, 2008 10:46 PM GMT
    Someone call Sally Struthers!
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    Feb 12, 2008 7:37 PM GMT
    bfg1, i never said protein will NEVER be converted to fat; just that your body has a harder time converting them to fat. If you ate nothing but protein, your body would convert it to fat; but your body uses up protein generally much faster than it has time to store it as fat, particularly when you engage in exercise.

    What I said was no misinformation, but fact, so don't classify it as such. And certainly not misinformtion that leads to obesity.
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    Feb 12, 2008 9:53 PM GMT
    LatinMuscleSF said but your body uses up protein generally much faster than it has time to store it as fat, particularly when you engage in exercise.

    What I said was no misinformation, but fact, so don't classify it as such. And certainly not misinformtion that leads to obesity.


    Just look at what you have just written

    what you are saying basicaly is if he ate say 200 calories of protein rather than 200 calories of bread then his body would use it up quicker and convert it to muscle and not fat.

    That is simply not true and has no basis of fact to it whatsover.

    As to misinformation like that leading to obesity maybe a little too harsh but having this mentality of protein good, carbs bad, and good fats are great for you is arguably why so many people are totally lost and confused about basic nutrition
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    Feb 15, 2008 4:00 PM GMT
    Chuckystud's advice is very good, especially when discussing why obese people have so much trouble losing weight. The worse thing you can do if you are obese is go on one of those starvation diets, it will actually make things worse, because your body remembers your ancestor's bad experiences with starvation, and thinks "oh oh better slow the metabolism down, the crop failed again." Human beings in terms of the physical side of things have actually not evolved much over the past several thousand years, we are still reacting to what happened frequently many thousands of years ago (and still happens in some parts of the world today).

    When I decided to lose weight last spring I knew the only way to do it and keep it off was to change my habits. Instead of waking up at 7 AM and eating breakfast then going to work, I decided to get up an hour earlier and work out. I knew I would never have the energy to work out after supper. Human beings are very habit forming creatures, the secret is to develop more good habits and discard the bad ones, easy to say but at times hard to do.
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    Feb 16, 2008 12:19 AM GMT
    What chucky studs post fails to define tho is what starvation level is?

    2000 calories a day is not starving, at 6ft 2 and 200 lbs 1400 calories a day is not starving.

    Staying on a lower level diet of 1400 calories per day is not optimal or advisable long term tho. But then again neither is a static diet figure anyway.

    I dont advocate the switching daily and by activity level as that in my books is

    a) a pointless exercise and
    b) too much of a headache to monitor.

    Far better to change it weekly when going down with a refeed in mind and fortnightly when going up on the weight

  • FredMG

    Posts: 988

    Feb 16, 2008 5:51 PM GMT
    I like what BFG1 has to say about calories and "starving". A good place to start for how many calories your need is

    www.primusweb.com/fitnesspartner/library/weight/calsburned.htm

    I think, it still all boils down to numbers. Your lean body mass is going to burn so many calories each day. If you add your calories for working out each day, you can then 'ballpark' how many calories you need. If you want to bulk up on muscle take more calories from protein, if you want to add some padding, try simple carbs and fat. carbs, fats, proteins get broken down, used and if there's leftovers, stored.

    And of, course if you keep your foods closer to the way they came out of nature the better they are for you. My favorite example are steamed yams or sweet potatoes. one cut up is one of my favorite sources of sweet carbs and last me for days. Sweet potato pie, however takes days of stair master to work off.

    Fred
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    Feb 16, 2008 9:07 PM GMT
    I love the vault of information that's being posted on here. The perks of this site are always reflected in the vast amount of information you can get from the educated, experienced workout pros on here.

    I have played the carb game to death, starting with atkins, and have finally found a happy spot for me that works in both fueling my body and allowing me to eat carbs. What works for me may not necessarily work for you. There are too many variables.

    Look at me, I follow the "white aint right" rule mentioned earlier, follow a sugar-free diet (added, not natural), and otherwise do not regulate my carb intake. I eat what I enjoy and makes sense within the boundaries I have quite liberally set for myself. I also log about 25 miles a week of running. 5-6 miles a pop. Because that is a part of my current conditioning, I am eating more carbs. 2 months ago when it was 15 degrees outside that mileage number was nearly cut in half, so I adjusted my carb intake accordingly.

    My point is its a constant adjustment, there is no hard and fast to any of it, you create a diet to help you reach your goals. It will probably change again when you get closer to them. icon_idea.gif