Immigration reform may pass or fail because of same-sex couples

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 7:32 AM GMT
    Link to an article on how some evangelicals are supporting Obama's immigration-reform efforts. It seems possible that with evangelical support persuading some Republicans, a lame-duck Congress might just pass immigration legislation later this year -- unless the legislation includes provisions facilitating the reunification of same-sex couples.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/us/politics/19evangelicals.html?hp
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 8:05 AM GMT
    It'd be nice if this event starts an avalanche of breaking political stereotypes. The parties really need to shuffle around. Both of them.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 1:21 PM GMT
    After reading this article there is no connection or disconnection between Immigration reform and same-sex couples it's mentioned in the beginning of the article and that's it. So there for there is one the title of this post is mis-leading. The artilc nonetheless is a very interesting read.

    I like the premise of the article in giving those law abiding immigrant who are here a path to become legal and or temporary workers.

    I also agree with the background checks, I do have a problem that the article suggests that those immigrants who do not speak English possibly be deported as the article indirectly implies.

    Being a son of immigrant any law or bill that would promote racial profiling like that of AZ is just wrong. I find it ironic that the bill only targets Latinos.
    When there are plenty of others who are here illegally.

    I would also like to see it become criminal with jail time, fines and loss of business for any one who knowingly hires those who are in this country.

    This blames the victim and the disenfranchised mentality that we have in this country is bordering on the barbaric.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 1:57 PM GMT
    Ducky46 saidAfter reading this article there is no connection or disconnection between Immigration reform and same-sex couples it's mentioned in the beginning of the article and that's it.


    Apparently you did not read the very last paragraph of the article:

    But Mr. Blackwell said the whole effort could implode if the final legislation extended family reunification provisions to same-sex couples where one spouse did not have legal status. For evangelicals, he said, "That would be a deal-breaker."
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 2:19 PM GMT
    Where you in my office when I read the artilce NO so BACK OFF! This article does not connect the dots with the religious right, the latino community and the gay the community. The what they propose doesn't do enough or say enough in my opinion just as you have yours. I don't the this would be a good pairing at all.

    If it did become a deal breaker, it would be the latino community (the immigrants) who would get thrown under the bus!

    So don't tell me what I read and what I didn't read!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 3:12 PM GMT
    Calm down! Look at what you said again: it's mentioned in the beginning of the article and that's it. Clearly this is not the case as it is mentioned at the very end of the article. The very last thing!


    edit-I did not post anything with the intention of being mean. I was just pointing out that when you say it is mentioned only at the beginning of the article and not again, you are clearly mistaken. It's not a matter of differing opinions- It's there in black and white in the very last paragraph.
  • mustangd

    Posts: 434

    Jul 19, 2010 3:45 PM GMT
    the AZ isn't racial profiling, its nationality profiling. yes, i understand how fine a line that is, but AZ isn't saying they want to reduce hispanics in the state, they are saying they want to reduce citizens of a foreign country who have entered the state of AZ and the U.S. illegally. it so happens that the people who have entered the state/country are hispanic. lets reverse this. Mexico as the land of plenty, and caucasians cross the border into Mexico by the thousands, some intent on a life of crime, the majority a burden on the Mexican infrastructure/health care system. would it be just if the Mexicans used that fact that they saw caucasians milling in large groups, or acting suspiciously, as a method to help reduce illegal immigration into their country? of course they would!

    we need to stop pinning the racial epitaph on everything. obviously there is plenty of times today, and throughout history when race is/was the issue, but its not always the root of the problem. this topic is a perfect example. AZ isn't targeting hispanics, who are breaking the law by entering the U.S./AZ illegally, they are targeting people who have broke the law of the land, by entering the U.S./AZ illegally, many commiting crimes, many more taxing the public infrastructure, who are hispanic.

    the same law allows the AZ police to question someone of middle eastern ethnicity, who is acting suspiciously. estimates are that 3% of the people crossing the border into the U.S. via Mexico are from the middle east. who would object to questioning someone of middle eastern background in post 9-11-01? would you say its ok to question people from yemen/pakistan/iran, but not Mexicans?

    i do agree that EMPLOYERS of illegal immigrants need to be targeted, fined and or punished by the law.

    also, amend the 14th amendment to the Constitution. remove the section granting citizenship to anyone born in the U.S., and reword it to children born to CITIZENS of the U.S. are automatically citizens.

    a pathway to citizenship for the hundreds of thousands of illegals already here? yes. they MUST declare themselves, they MUST enroll in english language classes, they MUST pass the same naturalization program that anyone who has become a citizen from a foreign country has. they are NOT eligible for social security, medicare beyond what they have paid into it, there can be a scale for that. cetainly no benefits for family back in Mexico...

    failure to meet any of the above crtieria, should result in deportation.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 4:21 PM GMT
    Ducky46 said

    If it did become a deal breaker, it would be the latino community (the immigrants) who would get thrown under the bus!



    This is where our opinions on this differ. Is it okay to throw lbtg immigrants under the bus and divide their families? Immigration reform needs to be about the inclusion all types of families, not the exclusion of some.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 4:31 PM GMT
    Leviticus 19: treat the stranger as you would yourself (unless he's gay.)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 6:04 PM GMT
    Or we might find some interesting political allies as our "bedfellows"

    Think of it: Hispanic "catholics", and proponents of "same-sex marriage" banding together to create a supermajority to pass progressive immigration reform that the right-wingers oppose.

    Brilliant!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 6:07 PM GMT
    Or we might find some interesting political allies as our "bedfellows"

    Think of it: Hispanic "catholics", and proponents of "same-sex marriage" banding together to create a supermajority to pass progressive immigration reform that the right-wingers oppose.

    Brilliant!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 8:22 PM GMT
    heartrobb saidCalm down! Look at what you said again: it's mentioned in the beginning of the article and that's it. Clearly this is not the case as it is mentioned at the very end of the article. The very last thing!


    edit-I did not post anything with the intention of being mean. I was just pointing out that when you say it is mentioned only at the beginning of the article and not again, you are clearly mistaken. It's not a matter of differing opinions- It's there in black and white in the very last paragraph.


    Thank you, heartrobb.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 8:42 PM GMT
    This union may make strange bedfellows. Is it the right kind of bed fellows, eh?
    How many of us has liad down with a stranger and wanted to naw our arm off to get away the next morning!

    Ningunas gracias
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 8:51 PM GMT
    My partner of 12 years and I live in Europe because he is German and I am American. We cannot both live together in my country because of the immigration implications of DOMA.

    This is a real issue that affects many people.

    We are already down under the bus.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 10:43 PM GMT
    Here's one thing that struck me in the article:

    "Bryan Fischer, director of issue analysis for the American Family Association, a national conservative Christian organization in Tupelo, Miss., said, 'What my evangelical friends are arguing is that illegal aliens should essentially be rewarded for breaking the law.

    " 'I think it's extremely problematic from a Judeo-Christian standpoint to grant citizenship to people whose first act on American soil was to break an American law,' said Mr. Fischer, who hosts a daily radio show on which immigration is a frequent topic."

    I'm a Jewish atheist, but even I know that Jesus is reputed to have said, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." It's too bad that Mr. Fischer doesn't seem to know it or to get it. From a Judeo-Christian point of view, that is.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 11:14 PM GMT
    Logically, same-sex couples don't even make up a full 1% of the population. So I highly doubt that those who are coupled and on a path to potential marriage carry that much clout. Going on about it is a great scare tactic for the evangelicals, who are more concerned about us getting married than their kids getting kidnapped/robbed/murdered on spring break in Mexico.

    It's a sad situation all around. I know that living conditions in Mexico are unacceptable and should not be tolerated. I think any one of us would do whatever we could to get the hell out of there if we had a chance. But looking at the laws, and really, trying to think forward here, it angers me that as a US citizen with no kids, a college degree, perfect health and at the prime age to be at my best, I can not move to Canada. Their immigration system is one of the most exclusive and restrictive than any country I've seen. You practically need a doctorate-level education, you need to have saved up at least a years' worth of your salary, and be at a point in your career that you would be considered for a job that no other Canadian citizen currently would not qualify for (so that we wouldn't end up stealing their jobs). That pretty much leaves me out on all three counts. And the whole 'just find someone to marry' thing is over - you can't do that anymore either.

    It's all relative. I know a lot of Mexicans dream of coming to the US to start a new life and are so devoted to their families and work harder than anyone I know. But it makes me furious to see that they are exploited and are afraid to say anything about it. A close friend of mine (who is Colombian, but was adopted by an American family as a baby) often is mistaken for Mexican, and has been robbed twice because of the assumption that he's probably illegal and wouldn't say anything to the cops.

    I know this will never happen, and yea, I'm thinking of myself a little here, but I guess I would like to see a more comprehensive, North American based immigration program. If we can show that we're productive, educated, skilled workers we (I) should be able to move to Canada without this much red tape and restriction. Mexicans who are doing jobs that are in demand that Americans STILL won't do should be able to come here - legally - and as such, we would know who they are, what they're doing, and they're a part of this nation and don't have to hide. After visiting Arizona, I think much of the fear is that everything is very anonymous in that nobody knows anything about the 'illegal aliens' - they could be anything from a sex offender to a murderer or a pharmacist or who knows...and obviously the violence near the border towns is enough to get people to think twice about visiting Nogales, San Diego, El Paso, etc.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 11:23 PM GMT
    UrsaMajor saidMy partner of 12 years and I live in Europe because he is German and I am American. We cannot both live together in my country because of the immigration implications of DOMA.

    This is a real issue that affects many people.

    We are already down under the bus.


    I know. It is barbaric. Even if you are legally married in a more civilized country like South Africa or Argentina, the backward U.S. won't let your spouse join you in the States.

    This is the same U.S. that joined Iran and Saudi Arabia to vote against gay rights declarations at the U.N. We have our work cut out for us.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 11:26 PM GMT
    DuluthMN said But looking at the laws, and really, trying to think forward here, it angers me that as a US citizen with no kids, a college degree, perfect health and at the prime age to be at my best, I can not move to Canada. Their immigration system is one of the most exclusive and restrictive than any country I've seen. You practically need a doctorate-level education, you need to have saved up at least a years' worth of your salary, and be at a point in your career that you would be considered for a job that no other Canadian citizen currently would not qualify for (so that we wouldn't end up stealing their jobs).


    While you may not know it, the U.S. has very similar requirements. I know because I went through that nightmare.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 19, 2010 11:46 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    theatrengym said
    " 'I think it's extremely problematic from a Judeo-Christian standpoint to grant citizenship to people whose first act on American soil was to break an American law,' said Mr. Fischer, who hosts a daily radio show on which immigration is a frequent topic."

    Good Lord (pun not really intended).

    If you can't even agree with that statement..... icon_rolleyes.gif


    I think I might agree with it from a non-Christian point of view. I find it ironic that someone from a Christian organization thinks that this is what Jesus would think is right. It seems to demonstrate a truly fundamental misunderstanding of Christ's message.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 20, 2010 12:20 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    theatrengym said
    I think I might agree with it from a non-Christian point of view.

    You might agree?

    If you don't agree, then you are in disagreement with Federal immigration law and with the government of every other country on Earth.

    People just can't wander in from one country to another. There is an immigration process that anyone wishing to enter a country other than their own must adhere to. That isn't just an evil American policy.

    Please, think about the ramifications of the policies you advocate.


    Jesus, I didn't advocate anything. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

    I think the question is whether it's wise to try to deport millions of people, maybe as many as 10-12 million. Is it more sensible and feasible to try secure the borders (which I agree should be done in some way) and instead help those who are here already secure citizenship, provided they don't have criminal records (apart from breaking the law to get into the country)?

    As on many other issues, I don't have an answer and I don't pretend I do. Things are often more complicated than many people prefer to believe. I try not to oversimplify things.
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Jul 20, 2010 7:11 AM GMT
    "Obama's immigration reform efforts ??"

    What efforts ?

    As far as I know, Congress still makes the laws in this country.
    And, they certainly won't be passing any immigration legislation before the November election.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 20, 2010 8:17 AM GMT
    Webster666 said"Obama's immigration reform efforts ??"

    What efforts ?

    As far as I know, Congress still makes the laws in this country.
    And, they certainly won't be passing any immigration legislation before the November election.


    Yes, quite right on the first point.

    On the second point, the article suggests (as I phrased it) that "a lame-duck Congress might just pass immigration legislation later this year." In other words, after the November elections.