Does the government serve the people or do the people serve the government?

  • solak

    Posts: 493

    Jul 20, 2010 5:20 PM GMT


    http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-07-07-column07_ST1_N.htmicon_cool.gif

    "The average federal employee earns an annual salary almost 60% higher than the average private-sector employee"

    "Federal civil servants enjoy another perk: near-absolute job security.
    It's virtually impossible to fire federal employees for bad performance once they've passed a one-year probationary period."

    brb practicing interviewing skillzzzzicon_cool.gif
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    Jul 20, 2010 5:26 PM GMT
    solak said

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-07-07-column07_ST1_N.htmicon_cool.gif

    "The average federal employee earns an annual salary almost 60% higher than the average private-sector employee"

    "Federal civil servants enjoy another perk: near-absolute job security.
    It's virtually impossible to fire federal employees for bad performance once they've passed a one-year probationary period."

    brb practicing interviewing skillzzzzicon_cool.gif


    These jobs are pretty hard to get, and it says right there in the article that federal employees have higher education.

    Who exactly do you think is hiring students with degrees in math, sciences, and physics? It sure as hell isn't walmart.
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    Jul 20, 2010 6:15 PM GMT
    For those who don't click on the link, it's an opinion piece that doesn't cite it's sources. The writer works for the extremely right-wing and anti-gay heritage foundation.

    Apparently, getting fairly compensated, being provided with health benefits, and paid leave (vacation, sick time) - what we used to call the "social contract" between employers and employees - if unAmerican.

    What the article also leaves out is the services that those federal employees provide for their pay. It suggests - again without citing sources or any real detail - that our tax dollars are being spent willy nilly. How many of those employees work for regulators, the intelligence agencies, HHS, etc?

  • solak

    Posts: 493

    Jul 20, 2010 6:30 PM GMT
    we're already at 35% marginal..

    but that's only Federal.

    once you add in State, Local, Sales, Vehicular, Property, SS/Medi, Unemployment, Alternative Minimum Tax, Health, proposed VAT, Work Comp, etc, etc..

    one wonders what the real number is..

    MSN Money says over 40%+, but that was a couple years back..

    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTaxRate40.aspx

    of course, i'm gonna guess MSN Money is a gay-loathing source like USAToday, WSJ, NYT, VillageVoice, NBC, ESPN, Nickelodeon and every other media outlet that questions anythingicon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jul 20, 2010 7:16 PM GMT
    solak said

    of course, i'm gonna guess MSN Money is a gay-loathing source like USAToday, WSJ, NYT, VillageVoice, NBC, ESPN, Nickelodeon and every other media outlet that questions anythingicon_rolleyes.gif


    If you want to post propaganda from an anti-gay source to back up your increasingly extreme and often ludicrous arguments, don't be surprised when you get called out on it.
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    Jul 20, 2010 11:07 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidI would say that as soon as the government is taking more than 50% of your earnings in various taxes (note: various taxes), then we are working to serve the government.


    Southbeach keep up the good work but here we differ.

    50%?

    If memory serves, the master of a serf could take no more than 33 percent of the fruit of the serf's labor.

    The Founding Fathers never intended us to be serfs of government. Direct taxation by the federal government was not even foreseen by the Founding Fathers.

    The power pigs in Washington, e.g., Obama-Pelosi-Reid, are way out of control. Give them a trillion in taxes and they'll waste ten trillion.

    What we need is a flat tax, walking papers for the power pigs and pink slips for a large percentage of overpaid federal government employees, many of whom have few marketable skills. It's bad enough paying these leeches while they are "working"; if they can shuffle papers long enough they get jumbo retirement benefits, the unfunded liability of which makes every taxpayer a serf.


  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Jul 20, 2010 11:40 PM GMT
    Uh. Fail. The US has the lowest taxes of any developed country, and one of the lowest taxes of any country. The country with the lowest taxes in the world? Somalia. Because the government can't collect them. Now there is a country to emulate.

    Oh, and adding to the unemployed by dumping a large part of the US workforce all at once. Now there is a way to rescue the economy.
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    Jul 20, 2010 11:55 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    solak said

    of course, i'm gonna guess MSN Money is a gay-loathing source like USAToday, WSJ, NYT, VillageVoice, NBC, ESPN, Nickelodeon and every other media outlet that questions anythingicon_rolleyes.gif


    If you want to post propaganda from an anti-gay source to back up your increasingly extreme and often ludicrous arguments, don't be surprised when you get called out on it.

    Microsoft is now anti-gay?


    Don't be an ass. The writer of the op-ed works for Heritage Foundation. I guess you don't actually read the shit that gets posted, as long as on the surface it agrees with your Miltonian (or is that Hobbesian) worldview.
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    Jul 21, 2010 12:10 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    DCEric saidUh. Fail. The US has the lowest taxes of any developed country, and one of the lowest taxes of any country. The country with the lowest taxes in the world? Somalia. Because the government can't collect them. Now there is a country to emulate.

    Oh, and adding to the unemployed by dumping a large part of the US workforce all at once. Now there is a way to rescue the economy.

    The USA has the highest taxes on business of any industrialized country.


    Demonstrably false again. According to the World Bank, the US is 61 out of 181 countries in favorable tax rates for businesses. We're ahead of Belgium, Finland, Germany, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Israel, Thailand, Taiwan, Japan, China, Italy, and, well, I could go on.
  • mybud

    Posts: 11832

    Jul 21, 2010 12:32 AM GMT
    Ideally both....Alot of individuals in our society have the mindset.....What's in it for me?.....With all it's fault's and missteps....we still live it the greatest country in the world....the author it the article can pass judgments..it's America..but would this same guy give up anything to insure fairness and parity for all?...talk is just that... talk....talk then action in my view...... Respect.....my 2....BUD
  • solak

    Posts: 493

    Jul 21, 2010 12:32 AM GMT
    DCEric saidUh. Fail. The US has the lowest taxes of any developed country, and one of the lowest taxes of any country. The country with the lowest taxes in the world? Somalia. Because the government can't collect them. Now there is a country to emulate.

    Oh, and adding to the unemployed by dumping a large part of the US workforce all at once. Now there is a way to rescue the economy.


    ...huh?

    U.S. States Lead the World in High Corporate Taxes
    http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/22917.html

    "24 U.S. states have a combined corporate tax rate higher than top-ranked Japan."

    ...and that's just Federal and State taxes..

    before Property taxes, Alternative Minimum Tax that hit middle income households, Local, Sales Tax, Medi/SS Tax, etc, etc are even accounted for.

    scary to think these simple numbers are above your head, given you work for the government.

    you'd think you'd know this little fact given that the public pay for your salary. you're welcome?
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Jul 21, 2010 1:15 AM GMT
    solak said

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-07-07-column07_ST1_N.htmicon_cool.gif

    "The average federal employee earns an annual salary almost 60% higher than the average private-sector employee"

    "Federal civil servants enjoy another perk: near-absolute job security.
    It's virtually impossible to fire federal employees for bad performance once they've passed a one-year probationary period."

    brb practicing interviewing skillzzzzicon_cool.gif




    That is an error.

    I have worked for the Federal government, and I have seen plenty of people fired, who had many years of employment.

    And, the 60% higher salary figure sounds like these people are getting rich. Our union contract dictated that our salary had to be EVEN with the cost of living, not above it, nor below it.
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    Jul 21, 2010 1:18 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    southbeach1500 said
    DCEric saidUh. Fail. The US has the lowest taxes of any developed country, and one of the lowest taxes of any country. The country with the lowest taxes in the world? Somalia. Because the government can't collect them. Now there is a country to emulate.

    Oh, and adding to the unemployed by dumping a large part of the US workforce all at once. Now there is a way to rescue the economy.

    The USA has the highest taxes on business of any industrialized country.


    Demonstrably false again. According to the World Bank, the US is 61 out of 181 countries in favorable tax rates for businesses. We're ahead of Belgium, Finland, Germany, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Israel, Thailand, Taiwan, Japan, China, Italy, and, well, I could go on.

    Huh? Germany just lowered their corporate tax rate to 29.8% The EU average is 23%.

    And the Europeans are cutting corporate tax rates in order to grow their economies.

    Here's some more data in a nice, neat chart:

    USA Has Highest Corporate Tax Rates


    My data is from the World Bank, a fairly well-known organization with neoliberal tendencies. Yours is from a corporate blog that references an "international organization promoting 'free market' principles", which is about as credible as Heritage Foundation. Try again, dearie.
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    Jul 21, 2010 1:19 AM GMT
    solak said
    DCEric saidUh. Fail. The US has the lowest taxes of any developed country, and one of the lowest taxes of any country. The country with the lowest taxes in the world? Somalia. Because the government can't collect them. Now there is a country to emulate.

    Oh, and adding to the unemployed by dumping a large part of the US workforce all at once. Now there is a way to rescue the economy.


    ...huh?

    U.S. States Lead the World in High Corporate Taxes
    http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/22917.html

    "24 U.S. states have a combined corporate tax rate higher than top-ranked Japan."

    ...and that's just Federal and State taxes..

    before Property taxes, Alternative Minimum Tax that hit middle income households, Local, Sales Tax, Medi/SS Tax, etc, etc are even accounted for.

    scary to think these simple numbers are above your head, given you work for the government.

    you'd think you'd know this little fact given that the public pay for your salary. you're welcome?


    Another BS right-wing organization heard from.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Jul 21, 2010 1:31 AM GMT
    Oh my Goodness ......

    Then that must mean that we are paying our Government workers WAY too much then doesn't it ?????

    We need to cut those salaries so they can suffer ................. Right along with the rest of us icon_neutral.gif

    'Cept your shill of a right propaganda website doesn't tell us the exact truth then does it?
    That the average salary when adjusted to inflation and price increases has fallen steadily since the mid seventies
    That most American families NEED two incomes now in order to survive when their parents did just as well on one
    THAT the Top 10% make exponentially more than the median income workers and that has gotten worse and worse over the last 20 years

    So lets cut the Fed workers salaries and make the Bush Tax cuts permanent shall we because god knows that will turn around the deficit icon_confused.gif
  • solak

    Posts: 493

    Jul 21, 2010 1:33 AM GMT
    source is OECD, endorsed by the Commissioner of IRS..

    so now you're adding IRS to your BS right-wing organization list?icon_lol.gif
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Jul 21, 2010 1:40 AM GMT
    and yet so many government jobs are in private hands...

    http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/
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    Jul 21, 2010 2:36 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    My data is from the World Bank, a fairly well-known organization with neoliberal tendencies. Yours is from a corporate blog that references an "international organization promoting 'free market' principles", which is about as credible as Heritage Foundation. Try again, dearie.

    OECD isn't credible?

    At the G20 just a few weeks ago, corporate tax rates (and the cuts in corporate tax rates by the EU countries) was covered quite extensively.

    Your data may have been correct a few years ago, but I'm talking about right now.


    The data you cited is from 2008, as is mine. You also neglect to note all the corporate loopholes and tax incentives given via the federal, state and local governments, which in some cases ameliorates the taxes paid.
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    Jul 21, 2010 3:35 AM GMT
    To the OP, it seems to me that it is in the best interest of the collective of U.S. citizens that the federal gov't is hiring highly qualified and competitive people-- e.g. i want intelligent people in the FDA so i dont get food poisoning or have a complication from some prescription drug and likewise I would like someone highly qualified working in intelligence so my plane doesn't get bombed. In order to attract these qualified people the gov't has to offer competitive wages and benefits. As long as the people in these jobs are contributing to the welfare of society i see the inequity in federal pay as a necessity in order to contribute to the general well being of society.

    With regards to the question of how high the corporate tax rate is, and whether or not that rate is justifiable... after briefly checking some sources it does appear, both from the world bank data and form the OECD that corporate taxes in the US are the highest in the world. According to basic economic theory, our high corporate tax rates coupled with an investment tax most likely deter Corporate investments in expanding infrastructure and developing and researching new technologies, as well as make goods more expensive to the american consumer as a whole (depending largely on the price elasticity of the demand for the good). It is interesting, however, that the high corporate tax rates have not hindered american businesses from being the most successful in the world, and that even our recent economic depression was not caused by the failure of american corporations but rather by risky behaviours on part of lenders and a collapse of trust in our financial markets. It seems that although theoretically high corporate tax rates would distort economic outcomes and slow economic progress that our economic growth has not been significantly hampered, relative to other countries, due to our higher tax rates. My only guess as to why this is is that perhaps the money is cycled back into the hands of corporations by govt spending... and then back to the govt, and back to the firms, and so on....

    I think I would agree that the U.S. has some pretty ridiculous and unprecedented taxes-- e.g. fica, investment tax and death tax... FICA is just plain stupid, i think most people would agree with that fact. it basically serves as a tax on employers buying labor from workers... increasing the cost of each labor hour and therefore lowering the employers willingness to hire workers. This obviously causes unemployment. Bad news all around. I mean the goals may have been admirable, but the way it was set up was poorly thought out.

    But to the republicans who want to cut corporate the corporate tax rate... Wouldn't the easiest way to pay off our current debt be to tax the shit out of everyone and everything? Considering that 75% (Medicare, Medicaid, social security) of our anual budget is non-discretionary it doesn't seem our debt crisis is going to be resolved any time soon by simply cutting costs. and if we cut taxes in the way some republicans have argued for it is entirely likely that our deficits would grow, regardless of how effective the govt is in reducing discretionary spending. And btw the best way to reduce discretionary spending is to pull out of Iraq/Afghanistan asap... This is not to say im in favor of the corporate tax rate as a way to pay for our debt, i am just trying to point out some of the inconsistencies in republican thinking.
    I will, however, grant that liberals have similar problems... but i really doubt anyone is on the economic high ground here. Talking of cutting deficits while at the same time talking about tax cuts seems somewhat contradictory. but then again so is talking of increasing govt spending and lowering the deficit... Neither really make sense.

    I suppose on the other hand that it may be argued that lowering corporate taxes may actually increase gov't tax revenue, that is if we are on the higher end of he laffer curve. I dont know the economic data well enough to say whether or not such an effect would take place--it is entirely possible that quite the opposite would happen.
  • Celticmusl

    Posts: 4330

    Jul 21, 2010 2:18 PM GMT
    I thought it was the aliens that served mankind.
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    Jul 21, 2010 2:53 PM GMT
    Southbeach agrees with jockfever of 'Omaba-the-muslim-with-no-birth- certiificate'?

    ROFL this explains a lot.


    No tax incentives , eh SB? So does this mean you write nothing off to do with your business when you file that tax return? icon_lol.gif


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    Jul 21, 2010 2:55 PM GMT
    Based on the latest news, http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/fooled-again-and-again-and-again/ it would appear that the government serves far right bloggers and Fox News far better than it serves the people, or itself.
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    Jul 21, 2010 5:00 PM GMT
    That's lame and clearly myopic. But then, it's you after all.
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    Jul 21, 2010 5:01 PM GMT
    solak said

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-07-07-column07_ST1_N.htmicon_cool.gif

    "The average federal employee earns an annual salary almost 60% higher than the average private-sector employee"

    "Federal civil servants enjoy another perk: near-absolute job security.
    It's virtually impossible to fire federal employees for bad performance once they've passed a one-year probationary period."

    brb practicing interviewing skillzzzzicon_cool.gif


    The old saying is that government does two things well: nothing and overreact. We could use more of the former and less of the latter.
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    Sep 13, 2010 12:17 PM GMT
    Christian73 saidFor those who don't click on the link, it's an opinion piece that doesn't cite it's sources. The writer works for the extremely right-wing and anti-gay heritage foundation.

    Apparently, getting fairly compensated, being provided with health benefits, and paid leave (vacation, sick time) - what we used to call the "social contract" between employers and employees - if unAmerican.

    What the article also leaves out is the services that those federal employees provide for their pay. It suggests - again without citing sources or any real detail - that our tax dollars are being spent willy nilly. How many of those employees work for regulators, the intelligence agencies, HHS, etc?



    Recent research out of the US Bureau of Economic Analysis confirms what other analyses have shown... and we’ve come to expect. Government workers are now compensated an average of more than $120,000, or about twice as much as the average private sector worker, who receives about $60,000.

    It is un-American when the public sector is way better compensated than the productive private sector.

    The public sector lives off taxes collected using the police power. The private sector, where people actually produce things like food, clothing, shelter, etc. is based on voluntary transactions.

    As a former federal employee I can attest to the fact that most federal employees are drones. They have no competition. Non-productivity and non-performance are not issues. Their jobs remain secure. Once in place, few federal employees leave -- they warm desks, shuffle papers, write memos, and count the days to their jumbo retirement.

    As has been noted, bored MMS employees who should have been on top of the BP oil spill, were viewing pornography. I have seen this first-hand in another federal agency. Madness is one thing the federal government produces in abundance.