The Middle Class in America Is Radically Shrinking

  • metta

    Posts: 39075

    Jul 26, 2010 8:22 AM GMT
    The Middle Class in America Is Radically Shrinking

    http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/the-u.s.-middle-class-is-being-wiped-out-heres-the-stats-to-prove-it-520657.html
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Jul 26, 2010 10:40 AM GMT
    We have had the biggest redistribution of wealth in this country in the last 100 years
    The Bush tax cuts alone have cost us trillions and it didn't help the middle class at all
  • mustangd

    Posts: 434

    Jul 26, 2010 3:14 PM GMT
    that we give corporations an incentive to offshore through tax breaks is mindboggling. we have lost sight of the fact that a corporation is not a living organism in itself. all hail the corporation, and quarterly bonuses at any expense seems to be the contemporary mantra, with no allegiance to country or people. if a corporation that is based in the united states, that enjoys the benefits of being a u.s. company, can not generate a profit while employing american workers, then it should cease to exist. if a corporation can not contribute to the good of the nation, and its people, through providing employment and generating tax revenue, it has no value to the nation as a whole, just a small percentage of citzens who have invested in it.

    this contemporary thinking of the corporatizaion of america is fools gold. witness the fact that the standard of living in america has stalled and in many cases is shrinking, as wages stagnate or decline. with what are americans to use to feed the consumer oriented economy? our ability through techology, and increases in population to produce has outstripped our capacity to purchase, which lead to the credit crisis, as americans do not earn enough to continually fuel that economy without borrowing. now, they can no longer borrow. our economy is only on life support through government influx of public funds, that is a stop gap measure, and can not continue indefinitely.

    is the answer to continue to allow jobs to move offshore, so that corporations can reap the profits of cheap labor?

    that is a good strategy for corporate bonuses and is a dividend generating machine for wall street, but, where does it leave the nation, and the vast majority of americans?

    are we to give up on the american dream? become modern day indentured servants, by eaking out a survival existence and leaving paycheck to paycheck? walk away from social security/medicare/medicaid, and return to the 19th century where old and infirm people are left to fend for themselves?

    all so that a small percentage of americans can enjoy the benefits?

    Ike warned us this was coming in his last presidential address, imagine that, a republican president. a president whose administration saw a tax rate of 92% for the top tax bracket, to pay off debt from WW2, the cold war, and build the interstate highway system. to have suggested allowing corporations to offshore with a tax break would've been inconceivable, and it still should be...

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    Jul 26, 2010 3:23 PM GMT
    mustangd said
    are we to give up on the american dream? become modern day indentured servants, by eaking out a survival existence and leaving paycheck to paycheck? walk away from social security/medicare/medicaid, and return to the 19th century where old and infirm people are left to fend for themselves?


    This is the American dream in conservative America.

    I sometimes participate in a health-related message board that has mostly older white male conservatives. Their political views are truly blood-curdling (and we think Southbeach is bad).
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    Jul 26, 2010 3:24 PM GMT
    GQjock saidWe have had the biggest redistribution of wealth in this country in the last 100 years
    The Bush tax cuts alone have cost us trillions and it didn't help the middle class at all


    Interesting perspective to say that tax cuts "cost" us anything. I saw it as a savings personally.

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    Jul 26, 2010 3:28 PM GMT
    metta8 saidThe Middle Class in America Is Radically Shrinking

    http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/the-u.s.-middle-class-is-being-wiped-out-heres-the-stats-to-prove-it-520657.html


    Every depression is caused by a major shift in direction of the economy. During the shift the middle class takes a big hit. I'm not saying it's right or wrong it just is. Government could assist us by making the US an inviting place for manufacturing and staying out of the way.

  • tbeaux

    Posts: 419

    Jul 26, 2010 3:28 PM GMT
    tomk7..if you're wealthy it may have cost you nothing, but for the majority of the middle class and poor class, the taxing went down heavily on them. So what this in turns says to the world about America; if you don't make a lot of money you will be taxed heavily.
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    Jul 26, 2010 3:32 PM GMT
    tomk7 said
    GQjock saidWe have had the biggest redistribution of wealth in this country in the last 100 years
    The Bush tax cuts alone have cost us trillions and it didn't help the middle class at all


    Interesting perspective to say that tax cuts "cost" us anything. I saw it as a savings personally.



    It's the usual talking points not attached to reality. The assumption seems to be that those dollars not taken in by the federal government for any tax cut shoulds have been moved directly to someone's pocket, i.e. those who scream about tax cuts. As if they deserved any of my income or yours. Something they did not earn and never will.

    It's the looter amd moocher attitude, not reality.
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    Jul 26, 2010 3:53 PM GMT
    twomack said
    tomk7 said
    GQjock saidWe have had the biggest redistribution of wealth in this country in the last 100 years
    The Bush tax cuts alone have cost us trillions and it didn't help the middle class at all


    Interesting perspective to say that tax cuts "cost" us anything. I saw it as a savings personally.



    It's the usual talking points not attached to reality. The assumption seems to be that those dollars not taken in by the federal government for any tax cut shoulds have been moved directly to someone's pocket, i.e. those who scream about tax cuts. As if they deserved any of my income or yours. Something they did not earn and never will.

    It's the looter amd moocher attitude, not reality.


    Wrong... Progressive taxation takes into account the greater share of government provided goods and services that the wealthy use up in the running of the businesses that make them wealthy. You couldn't make the money you do without highways, the postal service, cable, the telephone infrastructure, etc. Not to mention how your customers are also the beneficiaries of these services, without which they may not be able to access your products. There are also the police who make sure people don't steal your shit, the fire department which will put out the fire at your warehouse or office building, etc.

    What you want is the right to earn as much money as possible without paying back into the infrastructure that your business and its customers depend on. So, you're really the moocher, aren't you? icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jul 26, 2010 3:55 PM GMT
    This must be hard to understand for bible thumping America. It's real economic Darwinism at work.
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Jul 26, 2010 3:57 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]tomk7 said...Government could assist us by making the US an inviting place for manufacturing and staying out of the way.

    [/quote]


    the bush adminstration did exacty this with big oil...and the largest oil spill in the history of our country is the result of your advocated inattention/relaxation of regulations!!!!!!!

    icon_mad.gif

    icon_exclaim.gif

    icon_mad.gif
  • Daniepwils

    Posts: 151

    Jul 26, 2010 5:24 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    twomack said
    tomk7 said
    GQjock saidWe have had the biggest redistribution of wealth in this country in the last 100 years
    The Bush tax cuts alone have cost us trillions and it didn't help the middle class at all


    Interesting perspective to say that tax cuts "cost" us anything. I saw it as a savings personally.



    It's the usual talking points not attached to reality. The assumption seems to be that those dollars not taken in by the federal government for any tax cut shoulds have been moved directly to someone's pocket, i.e. those who scream about tax cuts. As if they deserved any of my income or yours. Something they did not earn and never will.

    It's the looter amd moocher attitude, not reality.


    Wrong... Progressive taxation takes into account the greater share of government provided goods and services that the wealthy use up in the running of the businesses that make them wealthy. You couldn't make the money you do without highways, the postal service, cable, the telephone infrastructure, etc. Not to mention how your customers are also the beneficiaries of these services, without which they may not be able to access your products. There are also the police who make sure people don't steal your shit, the fire department which will put out the fire at your warehouse or office building, etc.

    What you want is the right to earn as much money as possible without paying back into the infrastructure that your business and its customers depend on. So, you're really the moocher, aren't you? icon_rolleyes.gif


    Wow, I never looked at it that way. Very interesting.Thank you.
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    Jul 26, 2010 5:31 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    twomack said
    tomk7 said
    GQjock saidWe have had the biggest redistribution of wealth in this country in the last 100 years
    The Bush tax cuts alone have cost us trillions and it didn't help the middle class at all


    Interesting perspective to say that tax cuts "cost" us anything. I saw it as a savings personally.



    It's the usual talking points not attached to reality. The assumption seems to be that those dollars not taken in by the federal government for any tax cut shoulds have been moved directly to someone's pocket, i.e. those who scream about tax cuts. As if they deserved any of my income or yours. Something they did not earn and never will.

    It's the looter amd moocher attitude, not reality.


    Wrong... Progressive taxation takes into account the greater share of government provided goods and services that the wealthy use up in the running of the businesses that make them wealthy. You couldn't make the money you do without highways, the postal service, cable, the telephone infrastructure, etc. Not to mention how your customers are also the beneficiaries of these services, without which they may not be able to access your products. There are also the police who make sure people don't steal your shit, the fire department which will put out the fire at your warehouse or office building, etc.

    What you want is the right to earn as much money as possible without paying back into the infrastructure that your business and its customers depend on. So, you're really the moocher, aren't you? icon_rolleyes.gif


    Bingo!icon_biggrin.gif
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    Jul 26, 2010 5:37 PM GMT
    rnch saidhaven't Political Pundits been commenting on "the shrinking middle class" since the great depression of the 1930's?

    Actually, no. The Middle Class was growing again as we came out of the Great Depression, following the drastic shrinkage it experienced at the height of the collapse. And the Middle Class really exploded after World War II, when returning veterans used government-insured loans to buy houses, start families (the "baby boom") and stimulate the consumerism that fueled American economic growth. This created more jobs and higher salaries.

    There have been ups & downs since, mostly ups, until the second Bush. From that point we have been all downhill.
  • TristanLane

    Posts: 118

    Jul 26, 2010 7:35 PM GMT
    Whats considered middle class?
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Jul 26, 2010 7:38 PM GMT
    There isn't really a true middle class in the US. Many people in the US who earn anywhere from $30,000 and $150,000 consider themselves middle class.
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Jul 26, 2010 7:40 PM GMT
    wilton, surely you don't consider you and your bf members of the "middle class".. icon_question.gif



    (no sarcasm or slur intended)
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    Jul 26, 2010 7:52 PM GMT
    rnch saidwilton, surely you don't consider you and your bf members of the "middle class".. icon_question.gif

    As opposed to what, the lower class? Certainly possible. We haven't got a lot of money, just adequate. I was raised upper middle-class, though educated & socialized with upper class.

    Unfortunately none of their money rubbed off on me. As my late mother often said to me: "Robert, you have champagne tastes on a beer budget." My mother was the wisest woman I ever knew. So today middle class is the best I can claim.
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Jul 26, 2010 8:03 PM GMT
    Wilton said
    rnch saidwilton, surely you don't consider you and your bf members of the "middle class".. icon_question.gif

    As opposed to what, the lower class? Certainly possible. We haven't got a lot of money, just adequate. I was raised upper middle-class, though educated & socialized with upper class.

    Unfortunately none of their money rubbed off on me. As my late mother often said to me: "Robert, you have champagne tastes on a beer budget." My mother was the wisest woman I ever knew.


    HA!! my father's favortie verbal caution to me was that i "have champagne tastes on a tap water budget".


    and no, i was not intimating that you are a member of the lower classes... just the opposite.
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    Jul 26, 2010 8:17 PM GMT
    rnch saidand no, i was not intimating that you are a member of the lower classes... just the opposite.

    By "breeding" possibly, by income no way on Earth. I know how to ACT like money; I never learned the knack of EARNING money.

    Having been raised in it, and spoiled by it, I never learned how to make it for myself. When my late father lost our family fortune, I was up the creek without a paddle. Well, no great tragedy, I'm very adaptable.

    I'm certainly not broke, just not rich. And what little I have I mostly give to charity anyway. Like, who else should I save it for? My partner is independent, and does the same thing.

    The Army taught me to live very frugally and minimalist, and now I'm kinda proud I can do that. I take a perverse pleasure in living on less than was spent on me as a child.

    Yeah, there are times I kinda miss the pampering I had, the privileges, and I still have an appreciation for the finer things in life. But that life passed me by, yet I'm still here, and thriving. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Jul 26, 2010 9:47 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    Wrong... Progressive taxation takes into account the greater share of government provided goods and services that the wealthy use up in the running of the businesses that make them wealthy. You couldn't make the money you do without highways, the postal service, cable, the telephone infrastructure, etc.


    Thank you. This little point is lost on so many when they scream about the progressive tax system.

    The other issue is that a poor person depending upon a small salary...say, an immigrant farm worker in Arizona...couldn't afford to pay a proportional tax levy (meaning, everyone pays the same percentage). A much larger proportion of their money goes to maintaining life support (rent, food etc.) not to mention the lost wages when Arizona's ridiculous SB 1070 is implemented and anyone with a brown face will be automatically under suspicion and, possibly, detained. (I know, I know, the law specifically SAYS that can't possibly happen.....dream on).

    OK, don't like the example of the farm worker from Arizona? How about the poor guy who works for Macdonald's in Bugtussle, Oklahoma who will be lulled into thinking that the tea party "deranged" will implement massive tax reform that will actually put money back into his pocket?

    icon_twisted.gif

    [Edit: by the way, there really is a Bugtussle, Oklahoma. I have been there.]
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    Jul 26, 2010 9:54 PM GMT
    And no sign of south bitch? WTF?!?
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    Jul 26, 2010 10:09 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    twomack said
    tomk7 said
    GQjock saidWe have had the biggest redistribution of wealth in this country in the last 100 years
    The Bush tax cuts alone have cost us trillions and it didn't help the middle class at all


    Interesting perspective to say that tax cuts "cost" us anything. I saw it as a savings personally.



    It's the usual talking points not attached to reality. The assumption seems to be that those dollars not taken in by the federal government for any tax cut shoulds have been moved directly to someone's pocket, i.e. those who scream about tax cuts. As if they deserved any of my income or yours. Something they did not earn and never will.

    It's the looter amd moocher attitude, not reality.


    Wrong... Progressive taxation takes into account the greater share of government provided goods and services that the wealthy use up in the running of the businesses that make them wealthy. You couldn't make the money you do without highways, the postal service, cable, the telephone infrastructure, etc. Not to mention how your customers are also the beneficiaries of these services, without which they may not be able to access your products. There are also the police who make sure people don't steal your shit, the fire department which will put out the fire at your warehouse or office building, etc.

    What you want is the right to earn as much money as possible without paying back into the infrastructure that your business and its customers depend on. So, you're really the moocher, aren't you? icon_rolleyes.gif


    Great post. Never thought about it from that perspective.
  • nv7_

    Posts: 1453

    Jul 26, 2010 10:46 PM GMT
    To the wealthy....

    You are as wealthy as you are with the help of the poor and middle class. Before you say no, imagine if you will, the entire poor and middle classes wise up and declare they will do no more work until they make more money. A strike! Your business, and the world itself comes to a complete halt.

    You have somehow convinced yourself that you make the money you do on your own without the help of anyone. When in fact, others making less money have indeed helped you make more. A redistribution of their wealth into your pocket, you could say. icon_cool.gif

    This is part where you realize how lucky you are that the general population is either stupid and/or too scared to rock the boat and you say thank you. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jul 26, 2010 10:50 PM GMT
    nv7_ saidTo the wealthy....

    You are as wealthy as you are with the help of the poor and middle class. Before you say no, imagine if you will, the entire poor and middle classes wise up and declare they will do no more work until they make more money. A strike! Your business, and the world itself comes to a complete halt.

    You have somehow convinced yourself that you make the money you do on your own without the help of anyone. When in fact, others making less money have indeed helped you make more. A redistribution of their wealth into your pocket, you could say. icon_cool.gif

    This is part where you realize how lucky you are that the general population is either stupid and/or too scared to rock the boat and you say thank you. icon_rolleyes.gif


    ... For now.

    But absolutely correct.

    The largest redistribution of wealth in human history took place with the bailout, except it was all distributed to the very top of the social structure.

    To imagine there wouldn't be repercussions is dangerously naive and frankly, idiotic.