"Muslims are taking over the world"....maybe?

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  Jul 27, 2010 10:48 AM GMT

  So what do you think of this video? I agree with the concept up until the end, which makes it sound possibly ironic (I'll tell you why below this video). And after some research, I think it's right-wing exaggeration (of course) as the figures are skewed higher than they really are, but I still think it has a point.
  
  
  
  So it's true. The Muslim birthrates are growing faster than non-Muslim birthrates in European countries, much like the Mexican populations are growing faster than non-Mexican populations in the US. These are facts. Now don't go catapulting your harangues at me glistening with your liberal cliches because I just pointed out two painfully obvious facts. But now what I'm about to say can be open to interpretation. The Mexican population has more in common with Americans and easily assimilate, but Muslim populations are having a harder time doing the same which begets the question: If and once Muslims outnumber non-Muslims in Europe and Canada are they going to be assimilated? Or are they going to turn Europe and Canada into a Sharia Islam continent? What are your thoughts on Europe and Canada becoming Islamic?
  
  Oh and the possible irony of this film is after it bashes Islam at the very end it suggests for you to prevent the spread of Islam by...spreading the gospel message? What?!? I hope they are not referring to...believing in Christ? Because Christianity is the OTHER religion that's bent on world domination (though it's support is attentuating recently). That's like saying, "Hitler is a bad bad bad man. You should follow Stalin." But anyway yeah, Muslims are probably taking over the world, though not as fast as the video reports. I just hope that if they do, they leave gays alone.
  
  And on an unrelated note I love Middle Eastern music.
  

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  Jul 27, 2010 11:45 AM GMT

  jprichva said

  JB82 said That's like saying, "Hitler is a bad bad bad man. You should follow Stalin."

  
  Stalin was deeply misunderstood. All he ever wanted was to be loved.
  Is that so wrong?

  
  
  When you throw millions of citizens against their will to the battleground to use as buffer to keep out the Nazis out of your country...well....ehhhh you stopped the Nazis but you're still a mass murderer. Also Stalin (like Hitler) tried to cleanse his country of minorities. Stalin was almost like Hitler in my opinion but he existed thankfully at the same time...so they sorta cancelled each other out. Maybe Christianity and Islam will cancel each other out.

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  Jul 27, 2010 12:23 PM GMT

  Oh crap! ..need to run and have some babies quick to counter this growing threat.
  
  Perfect! my plan worked... the Christians will be so busy fighting with the Muslims that they'll never notice the gays moving in to take control!
  
  Muhahahahahahaha *cough* hahaha
  
  

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  Jul 27, 2010 12:25 PM GMT

  How odd. I have been thinking of this this week and just yesterday saw a program about Pim Fortuyn on French TV. (Who? Google him.) I also saw this video years ago when I was a fundie Christian. It´s very much over the top (e.g. only an idiot would suggest that the south of France was a centre of Christian life in Europe) and having a majority Muslim population does not make a country an Islamic Republic .
  
  The OP is right: the Hispanic immigration to the USA is much less of a threat to American culture than Islamic immigration in Europe is to European culture. Culturally, Latin Americans are broadly Catholic, Americans broadly Protestant or post Protestant. I have lived on both continents. They are very different, but not fundamentally opposing. This is not the case with Islam and secularism.
  
  The whole issue is very big in Europe, and often focused on women wearing the veil or face coverings. There are partial bans in Belgium, France, half the German states, Holland, and I just read of one in Catalonia the other day. I am in favor of banning the veil in public as I see it as symbolic of the political intentions of Islam (i.e. the refusal of people to integrate into a western society but instead try to keep living as though they were in the Muslim world). People get all flappy about this and say that people should have the freedom to express their own religious beliefs. This misses the point.
  
  The fundamental mark of western societies is NOT “freedom” as it is often construed nowadays (do whatever you want), it is secularism or laïcité, which is a more specific freedom. We are post enlightenment societies which reject the claims of any religion to have binding opinions which can be enforced on people by law. Simply having a muslim population does not make a country muslim. What matters is what dictates the law: is it religion or not? What must be fought at every turn is Islam having any role in forming a country´s politics (which is where the half truth about the problem of large, unassimilated muslim populations comes in).
  
  The Dutch political thinker Ayaan Hirsi Ali sees Islam as being in direct contradiction with secular enlightenment egalitarianism, especially on matters such as the role of women, punishments for adultery, homosexuality and apostacy. I agree with her, as did Iran´s spokesman at the UN when he criticized the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: the concept of human rights as outlined in UDHR is a secularized version of the Judeo-Christian tradition and thus inimical to Islam.
  
  
  On an unrelated note, I like middle eastern men.
  

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  Jul 27, 2010 12:57 PM GMT

  I found the whole topic of this a bit disconcerting as I initially thought this video would just be another "scare" video. It could have been one aimed at
  any group or race. I find it ignorant and misleading. The reality is, some of the facts are probably not misleading.... true that European countries have birthrates less than two and Islam is clearly growing in western Europe.
  
  Of course I find the "us" vs. "them" argument disgusting. It makes it sound like that muslim's are aliens and that if they become the dominant force, then all change....
  
  Certainly society would, but take a look at some of the Islamic countries..
  Is Turkey like Pakistan? Is Jordan like Saudi Arabia? Are Sunni's like
  Shia's?
  
  I think the country of Turkey would be a good example.... a muslim country, very pro western government, reasonably safe place.
  
  So what if part of this video is true? I would say the "fear" communicated is
  overrated.

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  Jul 27, 2010 12:58 PM GMT

  *looks up laïcité* oooohh.. nice one
  
  *looks up inimical* hmm... that's a pretty strong statement by Iran
  
  Nice post Lostboy, Just one small technical concern.
  
  "What must be fought at every turn is Islam having any role in forming a country´s politics"
  
  
  While this is technically correct because your post is directed at Islam in particular you then go on to discuss secularism as the fundamental mark of a western society, so I think it is more accurate to say that we must fight against any religion having a role in forming a country's politics in order to establish laïcité (hope I used that right).
  
  
  
  
  

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  Jul 27, 2010 2:58 PM GMT

  creyente... yup, though in the west of Europe Christians have little say in the political process and confused "political correctness" does not buy them any slack. I oppose any attempt by the churches to influence politics in favour of their own dogma. I find the role of religion in USA politics horrifying and anti western.
  
  The video is mostly Christian scare tactics, but the concerns about islam in european society are very real. For example, in the UK more and more muslim bus drivers and taxi drivers are refusing to allow blind people in their buses/taxis because either they or other passengers think that dog saliva is unclean (because that is the teaching of certain parts of Islam). There are reports of blind people being thrown off buses and left to find their own way home.
  
  The issue is not racial, it is about allowing religion (in this case Islam) to control the daily life of non-believers.

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  Jul 27, 2010 6:56 PM GMT

  What this video forgets is that generally when cultures mix, the incoming culture is suppressed within 3 generations, unless there is rapid expunging of the residing culture. Naturally, small residues remain. This is not happening in the West. The political freedom and neutrality in the law will never allow a single religion to eradicate another religion. Perhaps America is different than Europe, here the disparities between income levels are not as severe as in Europe. There are less attacks towards Muslims.
  
  The video obviously uses skewed numbers. To take into account the exaggerated birthrates, even if they are true, the children of these immigrants will not maintain the same birthrate. They will follow similar birthrates of the native population. Overall, worldwide, everybody is having less children. Everyone is becoming more secular.
  
  Overall, the Muslim population is more educated than any other immigration group coming into the West. The level of education is inversely proportional to the fertility rate. The actually make better American role models than the rednecks living across from me who refuse to pick up their beer bottles from their yards. They are certainly more liberal, overall, than their counterparts in their old countries. They are moderate across many issues that continue to irritate everyone else. When the second generation is exposed to the liberties of the West, they begin to abandon their culture more and more. My neighbors down a couple of houses are an old Pakistani couple. They speak and write their native tongues. They dress how they used to dress. Their children speak the native tongues. Their grandchildren are barely conversant in it, due to lack of exposure in the general public of such languages. We can safely say, their grandchildren are less religious than they are.
  
  If they live in the West, their values become different once they begin to raise families. Their children go to the same schools as the Western children. They are exposed, somewhat less maybe, to the same degeneracies in culture as the Western children are. It is THEIR culture that is assimilated. It is the Islamic values that are threatened with the continuous rise of the West and globalization. The threat in Muslim countries is a real threat, whereas, in the West, it is not.
  
  It is not going to become us v. them. Everyone will just become us. But Muslims are not going to become as big a threat as this video makes you think. The threat that Westerns face is that these Muslims are new. We fear what is new.
  
  We, here in Texas, are building fences across our borders to keep the "aliens" out. We are continuously having rallies to make English the official language. Our neighbors in Arizona are making laws that make it legal for police to detain and check immigration status of any brown-skinned upon "suspicions" of legality. Perhaps we should make the Muslims wear a crescent moon on their lapels, and the Mexican wear a cross on their lapels.

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  Jul 27, 2010 7:26 PM GMT

  Remember that Islamic immigration to the USA is of quite a different nature from that in Europe. Many of the Muslims that move to the USA are very highly educated (such as my brother-in-law) and they are still turned away. It´s not the same in Europe. A lot of the Muslims who come here are, well, not like that. They flee poverty without always wanting to abandon the cause of poverty (Islamic societies which are not propped up by oil wealth).
  
  I do agree that living in the west gradually liberalizes Muslims with the generations. I just want the process helped along (read the European media for a while: there are real issues here). My brother converted to Islam and his kids are Muslims. This is not an issue that I have knee jerk reactions on. I have lived in several European countries and spent years thinking it over.
  
  “They are exposed, somewhat less maybe, to the same degeneracies in culture as the West is.”
  
  Do you mean they watch America´s Next Top Model or that they are exposed to the evils of homosexuality? I don´t see homosexuality as a degeneracy.
  
  There are actually two immigration issues in Europe: one of “cultural Christians” from Eastern Europe, the other is Muslims from Turkey, North Africa etc. The (legal) movement of many people from eastern europe to the west has created some problems and ill will, but it´s the Islamic immigration, especially the non assimilating immigration, which is the more serious problem. For example, homophobic violence has increased in Holland and it is almost 100% due to the Muslim immigrants.
  
  I hope very much that everyone will become “us”… if they don´t want to they should go back to Morocco or wherever. But the video is alarmist and probably produced by evangelicals to raise money for muslim mission work.
  

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  Jul 27, 2010 7:33 PM GMT

  
  
  lostboy said, "But the video is alarmist and probably produced by evangelicals to raise money for muslim mission work. "
  
  Interesting observation, in that you don't see Muslim missionaries here trying to convert us (Canadians, for example) to Islam.
  Carmine we disagree on their culture being suppressed, so much as their exposure to new ideas and ways of thinking inspiring them to break out of their cultural/religious restrictions.
  
  -us two (Bill's on holidays, YES!!!!!)
  

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  Jul 27, 2010 7:41 PM GMT

  meninlove said
  
  lostboy said, "But the video is alarmist and probably produced by evangelicals to raise money for muslim mission work. "
  
  Interesting observation, in that you don't see Muslim missionaries here trying to convert us (Canadians, for example) to Islam.
  Carmine we disagree on their culture being suppressed, so much as their exposure to new ideas and ways of thinking inspiring them to break out of their cultural/religious restrictions.
  
  -us two (Bill's on holidays, YES!!!!!)
  

  
  
  Historically in Europe Muslims don´t do missionaries so much as invading forces
  
  27 April 711
  October 10th 732, Battle of Tours (or often called Battle of Poutiers)
  Jan 2nd 1492, Battle of Granada.
  
  
  (yes, I checked the day and month on wiki. So sue me.)
  

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  Jul 27, 2010 7:51 PM GMT

  I actually did not think about the North Africans. You are right, things are better in America. Do the European countries not have quotas on immigration like the US does?
  You have dazzled me with your wit and confounded me with your usage of words like "laïcité" and "inimical".
  
  Degeneracy- You know us gays are deviants. But I really meant that since most Muslims are raised conservatively, they don't normally lash through drugs and sexual experimentation. The generally just dabble into crises in faith.
  
  Meninlove-"Interesting observation, in that you don't see Muslim missionaries here trying to convert us (Canadians, for example) to Islam.
  Carmine we disagree on their culture being suppressed, so much as their exposure to new ideas and ways of thinking inspiring them to break out of their cultural/religious restrictions."
  
  Don't make it about thinking how much better we are then they are. It is what it is. Their culture dies out due to lack of conducive nurturing environment in the West. That could start a whole new argument. Muslims are not strong missionaries. They may be afraid of the backlash they will produce. I have certainly never seen a Muslim go to college campuses to convert people, whereas the Christians do it all the time-they even do it in front of the grocery stores.

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  Jul 27, 2010 8:03 PM GMT

  There are Muslim apologists btw. They are not the same as christian missionaries, because historically Islam has spread through warfare and forced conversion (fact). They have produced materials on why eg the Trinity is incoherent and why Jesus can´t be God.
  
  I am not sure about immigration limits... I have no problem with Islamic immigration btw. I have a problem with Islamic immigration which refuses to adapt to the majority culture (western secularism).
  
  and gays are not inherently immoral any more than Muslims are inherently hateful.

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  Jul 27, 2010 8:12 PM GMT

  Warfare and forced conversions? To a certain extent, just like Christianity. Didn't this video they are spreading just say because they have lots of unprotected sex?
  
  My apologies. I really need to work on my sarcasm-gays are deviant was meant to sound tongue-in-cheek.

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  Jul 27, 2010 8:18 PM GMT

  Western Christians only really started what we consider "missionary work" in the C 18. Before that all "missionary work" was really warfare (eg the Catholic "missionary work" in Latin America).
  
  (there was an earlier wave of missionary work in the far east in the early middle ages, but that was done by the Nestorian and Monophysite churches and they were all non European and therefore who cares).

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  Jul 27, 2010 8:56 PM GMT

  lol Lostboy, Wiki has a lot of good stuff, we use it on occasion when the citations are verifiable. So no suing, but instead, how about lunch?
  
  Carmine, this, "Don't make it about thinking how much better we are then they are."
  It's not so much about we are better than they (though in matters of secularity Canada is). Canada encourages cultural identities, right up to and including government grants. We refer to the lack of censorship; censorship that their respective governments often impose on them.
  Another debate for another day.
  
  
  In fact all four of us should do lunch one day. Something tells us it would be a lot of fun.
  
  -us

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  Jul 27, 2010 10:56 PM GMT

  My 2 cents:
  
  I think history has debunked the "people x are coming and destroying our culture" myth. When jews mass migrated from europe to escape opression there was mass hysteria in newspapers suggesting that "jews are coming from eastern europe and bringing their radical politics, comunisms, and anarchisms and are going to destroy american society! Just look at Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman!" When Italians mass migrated from Italy in the 1950s, it was suggested that "These Wops are coming here with their mafia connections and bringing vice and undermining the american legal system! Just look at Al Capone!" And with the italians there was massive stereotyping of them based on the fact that they seemed to have a lot of kids which made the alarmist anti-immigration rhetoric all the more allarming. The reality is that people usually wind up integrating themselves into the larger culture.
  
  I don't think having more muslims means everything the hype would lead us to believe that it does, just as more jews doesn't mean more communists, and more italians doesn't mean more organized crime. I also think that it's pointless to be mindlessly defensive of your culture and traditions just because they're yours. We take things from other cultures that make our society work better and other cultures (let's exclude neo-colonialism, and imperial domination of the global south breifly) can do the same.

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  Jul 28, 2010 2:49 AM GMT

  Lostboy saidThe whole issue is very big in Europe, and often focused on women wearing the veil or face coverings. There are partial bans in Belgium, France, half the German states, Holland, and I just read of one in Catalonia the other day. I am in favor of banning the veil in public as I see it as symbolic of the political intentions of Islam (i.e. the refusal of people to integrate into a western society but instead try to keep living as though they were in the Muslim world). People get all flappy about this and say that people should have the freedom to express their own religious beliefs. This misses the point.

  
  
  Hair coverings are fine with me, but I agree with the majority where face coverings are not ok. It doesn't matter that it's "freedom of religion," because it opposes security risks. I'm not saying that Muslim women will conceal their identity and go out and steal, but at this time in history anyone can conceal their identity posing as a Muslim woman and easily slip through the cracks. I remember ON HALLOWEEN I wore a bunny suit, and was told to take OFF my bunny mask/helmet as I walked in to this store. Why? Because if I stole something they wanted to know my identity. This is counter to Americas DEEPLY rooted and widely celebrated Halloween festival, where identities are commonly concealed. Muslims are no different from this rule. Security > freedom of expression.

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  Jul 28, 2010 2:56 AM GMT

  Fountains saidI don't think having more muslims means everything the hype would lead us to believe that it does, just as more jews doesn't mean more communists, and more italians doesn't mean more organized crime. I also think that it's pointless to be mindlessly defensive of your culture and traditions just because they're yours. We take things from other cultures that make our society work better and other cultures (let's exclude neo-colonialism, and imperial domination of the global south breifly) can do the same.

  
  
  Well the problem is if Muslims are proliferating at 8 babies a family while Europeans are proliferating at 1.5 babies, if Muslims outnumber at a quick pace over time, they might end up strengthening their own economic enclaves instead of integrating into society. Their religious backgrounds are very contrasting. The same thing could actually happen in America where you have pockets of Latinos. Today even Spanish has become the norm and English is hardly spoken in certain areas. I met some friends from Spain who said they have NO problem navigating around Los Angeles because nearly everyone spoke Spanish at any transportation stop, store, club, etc. There's plenty of Latinos that have not integrated. But I honestly don't see them fighting with English speaking Americans over a radical "shift" in American policies, religion, of laws. Latinos are the most ethnically varied group of people from what I've witnessed.` Hmmm, this shift towards Latinos almost deserves it's own thread.

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  Jul 28, 2010 3:04 AM GMT

  JB82 said

  Fountains saidI don't think having more muslims means everything the hype would lead us to believe that it does, just as more jews doesn't mean more communists, and more italians doesn't mean more organized crime. I also think that it's pointless to be mindlessly defensive of your culture and traditions just because they're yours. We take things from other cultures that make our society work better and other cultures (let's exclude neo-colonialism, and imperial domination of the global south breifly) can do the same.

  
  
  Well the problem is if Muslims are proliferating at 8 babies a family while Europeans are proliferating at 1.5 babies, if Muslims outnumber at a quick pace over time, they might end up strengthening their own economic enclaves instead of integrating into society. Their religious backgrounds are very contrasting. The same thing could actually happen in America where you have pockets of Latinos. Today even Spanish has become the norm and English is hardly spoken in certain areas. I met some friends from Spain who said they have NO problem navigating around Los Angeles because nearly everyone spoke Spanish at any transportation stop, store, club, etc. There's plenty of Latinos that have not integrated. But I honestly don't see them fighting with English speaking Americans over a radical "shift" in American policies, religion, of laws. Latinos are the most ethnically varied group of people from what I've witnessed.` Hmmm, this shift towards Latinos almost deserves it's own thread.

  
  
  And this is a fair point, but again I'll suggest that the same thing was said about Jews the Chinese, and the Italians; the difference is that it would have sounded like this:
  
  "Well the problem is if Italians are proliferating at 8 babies a family while white (because Italians weren't considered white at the time) are proliferating at 1.5 babies, if Muslims outnumber at a quick pace over time, they might end up strengthening their own economic enclaves instead of integrating into society. Their cultural and linguistic backgrounds are very contrasting. The same thing could actually happen in America where you have pockets of Irish people. Today even Italian has become the norm and English is hardly spoken in certain neighborhoods in new york city. I met some friends from italy who said they have NO problem navigating around New York because nearly everyone spoke Italian at any transportation stop, store, club, etc. There's plenty of Italians that have not integrated..."
  
  
  
  

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  Jul 28, 2010 3:14 AM GMT

  Fountains said

  JB82 said

  Fountains saidI don't think having more muslims means everything the hype would lead us to believe that it does, just as more jews doesn't mean more communists, and more italians doesn't mean more organized crime. I also think that it's pointless to be mindlessly defensive of your culture and traditions just because they're yours. We take things from other cultures that make our society work better and other cultures (let's exclude neo-colonialism, and imperial domination of the global south breifly) can do the same.

  
  
  Well the problem is if Muslims are proliferating at 8 babies a family while Europeans are proliferating at 1.5 babies, if Muslims outnumber at a quick pace over time, they might end up strengthening their own economic enclaves instead of integrating into society. Their religious backgrounds are very contrasting. The same thing could actually happen in America where you have pockets of Latinos. Today even Spanish has become the norm and English is hardly spoken in certain areas. I met some friends from Spain who said they have NO problem navigating around Los Angeles because nearly everyone spoke Spanish at any transportation stop, store, club, etc. There's plenty of Latinos that have not integrated. But I honestly don't see them fighting with English speaking Americans over a radical "shift" in American policies, religion, of laws. Latinos are the most ethnically varied group of people from what I've witnessed.` Hmmm, this shift towards Latinos almost deserves it's own thread.

  
  
  And this is a fair point, but again I'll suggest that the same thing was said about Jews the Chinese, and the Italians; the difference is that it would have sounded like this:
  
  "Well the problem is if Italians are proliferating at 8 babies a family while white (because Italians weren't considered white at the time) are proliferating at 1.5 babies, if Muslims outnumber at a quick pace over time, they might end up strengthening their own economic enclaves instead of integrating into society. Their cultural and linguistic backgrounds are very contrasting. The same thing could actually happen in America where you have pockets of Irish people. Today even Italian has become the norm and English is hardly spoken in certain neighborhoods in new york city. I met some friends from italy who said they have NO problem navigating around New York because nearly everyone spoke Italian at any transportation stop, store, club, etc. There's plenty of Italians that have not integrated..."

  
  
  But they are all under the same religion umbrella. There's not really any stark differences especially in religion. That's like saying the Sunni Muslims were taken over by the Shiite Muslims who proliferated more. They're still Muslims. In your case these are still Christians. You really can't make a valid comparison because this is largely due to religion, and the only two world-dominating religions are Christianity and Islam. Unless of course you want to count Scientology? But that's just a big fucking cult. Anyway, even my Latino analogy isn't quite the same because there's hardly disagreement between Catholics and Protestants in America (though I'm aware about Northern Ireland where shit went down between different types of Christians). There's more common ground between different sects of the same religion than different religions that butt heads with their world domination endeavors.

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  Jul 28, 2010 3:18 AM GMT

  Interesting thread! But I don't trust the way he explains about the stats. Having 8 children per family generally refers to recently arrived, less educated immigrants. Their childrens' fertility rate will not be as high.
  
  In fact, in US, some communities have many children, eg Amish and Mormons. And I have Catholic friends who are have like 4 children per family, which is considered as 'many' these days.
  
  

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  Jul 28, 2010 3:21 AM GMT

  beaujangle saidIn fact, in US, some communities have many children, eg Amish and Mormons. And I have Catholic friends who are have like 4 children per family, which is considered as 'many' these days.

  
  
  Same thing with Mormons, which have taken over the state of Utah, which no one wants anyway so no one really cares unless the Mormons try to make an impact outside of Utah like they did with Prop 8 for example.

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  Jul 28, 2010 3:26 AM GMT

  OK, well then we can talk about Jews (particularly from eastern Europe) who were targeted as communists and anarchists. For example, Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman. Both were Russian born anarchists from Jewish families. Read some of the political rhetoric from that era and you will find right wingers howling about "Russian Jews bringing their radical leftist beliefs and undermining American political culture". And just like your argument about Muslim immigrants being incompatible with the religious framework of America, they argued back then that we shouldn't let Jews from eastern Europe into the country because their leftist beliefs were incompatible with America. You and I both know that not every Jew is a radical leftist, so why make the argument that every Muslim is super religious, not secular, and can't fit into the larger political culture?

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  Jul 28, 2010 3:26 AM GMT

  Lostboy said
  On an unrelated note, I like middle eastern men.
  

  
  
  Hottest ethnicity by far. Middle Eastern guys are the PERFECT race. They just need to stop with this gay killing bullshit now.

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