British Prime Minister Calls Gaza Strip a "Prison Camp"

  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Jul 28, 2010 6:07 PM GMT
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jul/27/david-cameron-gaza-prison-camp
  • leixguy

    Posts: 144

    Jul 28, 2010 9:45 PM GMT
    I always liked David Cameron.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14395

    Jul 28, 2010 9:54 PM GMT
    Gaza was turned into a brutal prison camp by that terrorist, zionist nation known as Israel. icon_mad.gif
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    Jul 29, 2010 5:06 AM GMT
    Really, yet another anti-Israel spam propaganda topic?
    And from the guy who just paid lip service to not demonizing the other side?

    Here are pictures from Gaza from this month:

    Gaza_Street_Construction_2010-07-11.jpg
    Gaza Street Construction (11 July 2010)

    Gaza_Street_Dedication_2010-07-14.jpg
    Gaza Street Dedication (14 July 2010)

    Gaza_Supermarket_Fruits_2010-07-20.jpg
    Gaza Supermarket - Fruits (20 July 2010)

    Gaza_Supermarket_Aisle_2010-07-20.jpg
    Gaza Supermarket - Aisle (20 July 2010)

    Gaza_Cattle_from_Israel_2010-07-12.jpg
    Cattle entering Gaza from Israel (12 July 2010)

    Gaza_Horse_Championship_2010-07-15.jpg
    Gaza Horse Championship (15 July 2010)
    Note city in background.

    Gaza_at_Night_2010-07-14.jpg
    Gaza at night (14 July 2010).
    (Sorry If you thought this was London or a 5 star hotel in Cairo or Las Vegas.)

  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Jul 29, 2010 5:28 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidReally, yet another anti-Israel spam propaganda topic?
    And from the guy who just paid lip service to not demonizing the other side?

    Here are pictures from Gaza from this month:

    Gaza_Street_Construction_2010-07-11.jpg
    Gaza Street Construction (11 July 2010)

    Gaza_Street_Dedication_2010-07-14.jpg
    Gaza Street Dedication (14 July 2010)

    Gaza_Supermarket_Fruits_2010-07-20.jpg
    Gaza Supermarket - Fruits (20 July 2010)

    Gaza_Supermarket_Aisle_2010-07-20.jpg
    Gaza Supermarket - Aisle (20 July 2010)

    Gaza_Cattle_from_Israel_2010-07-12.jpg
    Cattle entering Gaza from Israel (12 July 2010)

    Gaza_Horse_Championship_2010-07-15.jpg
    Gaza Horse Championship (15 July 2010)
    Note city in background.

    Gaza_at_Night_2010-07-14.jpg
    Gaza at night (14 July 2010).
    (Sorry If you thought this was London or a 5 star hotel in Cairo or Las Vegas.)





    Thanks, for posting these pics.
    People often speak out of ignorance.
    David Cameron can say whatever he wants. That doesn't make it so.
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    Jul 29, 2010 8:32 PM GMT
    I have a friend who lives in Gaza, with whom I communicate weekly...
    these pics do NOT represent Gaza as he knows it...and he's living amonst the ruins everyday of his life!!!
    The "prison camp" analogy is FAR more accurate. icon_exclaim.gif
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    Jul 29, 2010 9:35 PM GMT
    Friendsrbetter> I have a friend who lives in Gaza, with whom I communicate weekly

    Did he vote for Hamas?
    Does he support their violent coup?
    Does he believe them to be the legitimate government?


    Friendsrbetter> he's living amonst the ruins

    Most of Gaza is not in "ruins".
    It appears he is misleading you.

    What is misrepresentative is the cropped photos of one building here or there that is damaged.
    What is false is reports that there is no construction, of "starvation", etc.

    Would your friend prefer to live in the Nahr el-Bared camp in Lebanon?
    (I don't think they have internet there, like in Gaza, so you would no longer be able to communijcate.)

    THIS IS NOT GAZA!
    GD5043146@Nahr-el-Bared2007-3757.jpg
    Nahr el-Bared in Lebanon after fighting with the Lebanese Army

    That's what "ruins" resemble - 85% of that camp was destroyed.
    Without a peep from "humanitarians".

    Indeed, neither sxydrkhair, IanCt or Pouncer cared enough to start a topic calling for the Lebanese (and other Arab governments) to grant the Arab refugees/descendents living there the rights guaranteed to all other refugee populations world-wide.

    How come there are no "flotillas" of relief being sent there...?


    pouncer> a horse race

    The point wasn't just the horse race but (as noted) the city-scape in the background.
    Do you think there are equestrian competitions going on in places that truly are in a humanitarian crisis?
    (Think there are any in Nahl el-Bared or Darfur?)


    pouncer> a pièce de résistance luxury hotel!!

    I said it was NOT a luxury hotel in London or Vegas.
    What made you pretend it was?


    pouncer> the situation in Gaza as a humanitarian crisis.

    They generally say that there is a PENDING humanitarian crisis.
    But necessary aid continues to flow and the "crisis" remains in the future.


    pouncer> In January 2007, Gaza received more than 10,000 truckloads of goods each month; by January 2009, that number was down to roughly 3,000.

    Aid was reduced because Hamas increased terrorist attacks against Israel.
    Still, the present level of aid is 100 trucks per day.
    (The "flotilla", for all its headlines and self-importance, provided about 23 truckloads.)

    Consider further that the present aid level is more than what flowed into Haiti following the devastating earthquake.
    There are 6x as many people in Haiti as in Gaza.


    pouncer> frequent blackouts

    Most of Gaza's power is supplied by Israel.
    Can you imagine Britain providing Germany with any power at all while London was being bombed by V2 rockets?

    Just a few weeks ago:

    Palestinians must resolve Gaza power crisis - UNRWA (AFP)
    the UN agency for Palestinian refugees yesterday called on bickering Palestinian factions to resolve a deepening electricity "crisis" in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip. ...John Ging, director of the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in Gaza [said] "It's an unbearable situation here at the moment, and it needs to be solved very quickly. It's a Palestinian problem, made by Palestinians, and causing Palestinian suffering. So let's have a Palestinian solution," he told reporters. ...Israel supplies about 70 percent of Gaza's power and Egypt provides five percent.

    You didn't hear sxydrkhair, IanCT, tokugawa or pouncer complain about that, either.
    Just like no one cared or cares about Nahr el-Bared.
    Which reveals to us that their concern isn't about the people there.
    Other than to use them to falsely demonize and attack Israel.

    To that end they even embrace the anti-gay Hamas, going further than the majority of Palestinian Arabs and claiming that it is a legitimate (let alone democratic or secular) government despite illegally seizing power in a violent coup.

    Free Gaza from what truly afflicts it: Hamas
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/973888
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    Jul 30, 2010 1:55 AM GMT
    Zionist propaganda.

    Most of the foods coming from Gaza's tunnel.

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    Jul 30, 2010 2:56 AM GMT
    IanCT> Most of the foods coming from Gaza's tunnel.

    Are you really insisting that the equivalent of 900 trucks per day come through the tunnels? Really, such convoys should be pretty easy for the Egyptian authorities to spot and stop.

    Regardless, if what you say is true then why bother with the "siege" (a propaganda soundbite for blockade) given that it is ineffective?

    This is the typical two-stage lie:
    1> People in Gaza are "starving" due to Israel's "siege".
    C4> Israel sends in plenty of aid
    IanCT 2> Most of the foods coming from Gaza's tunnel
    C4> so you were lying about the "starving"!
    Just as you are now lying about the source of the majority of basic foods.


    Why do you continue your silence regarding the Palestinian Arab refugees/descendents in Lebanon and elsewhere in the Arab world?
    How come you and sxydrkhair didn't post about the events at Nahl el-Bared?
    Conclusion: you hate Israel more than you love your own brethren.
    Maybe you don't really consider them your brethren?


    Pouncer> "horse racing in Darfur..."

    On a dirt track compared to an orderly equestrian competition is like the difference between a telephone and tin-cans.
    But nice try.


    p> What does the presence of a "city-scape" have to do with an area's living conditions? Cities almost always encompass the worst living areas of any nation.

    Wooosh... the sound of yet another point going over p's head.
    The point is that there was a largely un-"ruined" city in the background.
    Unlike in Nahr el-Bared - which you happily continue to ignore.


    Sorry If you thought this was London or a 5 star hotel in Cairo or Las Vegas.

    p> ...thereby positing the comparison.

    My comment implied that it wasn't any of these.
    So what? Why did you dismiss this as if it were a luxury hotel?

    Once again it is perfectly clear that you've never been to Gaza (which explains your continued failure to post any pictures of you there).


    They generally say that there is a PENDING humanitarian crisis.
    But necessary aid continues to flow and the "crisis" remains in the future.


    p> Talk of a 'pending' crisis is also accurate because of future dangers and the fact that things can always get worse

    Ridiculous. No one who ways there is an existing crises would speak of a pending crisis.


    Aid was reduced because Hamas increased terrorist attacks against Israel.

    p> punishing the collective for the crimes of the few are we?

    No. Aside from some luxury items, basic necessities flow into Gaza.
    What is primarily restricted are armaments and dual use items.
    (Odd that pouncer doesn't complain when aid intended for the people is seized by Hamas for their own benefit.)

    p> What's the excuse for this mass butchery?

    Your hysterics betray you.


    p> didn't you say Hamas weren't elected, aren't democratic, oppress their own people, and that most Palestinians want them out?

    Are you still denying any of this?


    The present level of aid is 100 trucks per day.
    (The "flotilla", for all its headlines and self-importance, provided about 23 truckloads.)


    p> So we're back to 3,000 trucks a month like in January '09???

    That level has been consistent since then and before.

    Now that you know how much aid flows daily into Gaza, doesn't the amount of "vital" aid on the "flotilla" pale by comparison?

    Note further that the "flotilla" aid was refused by Hamas because it came by land instead of sea.
    Indicating how Hamas plays politics over the needs of the population.
    Or perhaps that this additional aid wasn't really necessary.
    Which do you think it is?


    the present aid level is more than what flowed into Haiti following the devastating earthquake.
    There are 6x as many people in Haiti as in Gaza.


    p> false equivalent... non-sequitur... Haiti is a country, Gaza is a refugee camp of 1.5 million. ... the Duvalier family only came to power in Haiti in the 1970's, the Palestinians have been in crisis since the 1940's.

    Not only isn't Gaza a refugee camp, but once again we see that for pouncer it's not about the people but about politics.
    The basic needs of people don't change based on politics or even the alleged duration of a "crisis".

    The fact remains that Gaza receives more basic assistance than Haiti after the devastating earthquake (nothing to do with Duvalier or the 1970s).
    Despite being 1/6th the size population-wise.

    Maybe you should be taking your the paltry amount of aid you claimed you were going to personally deliver to the "Hamas representative" to Haiti... or the camps in Lebanon such as Nahl el-Bared?


    Most of Gaza's power is supplied by Israel.
    Can you imagine Britain providing Germany with any power at all while London was being bombed by V2 rockets?


    p> Of course it's supplied by Israel. You see that's one of the catch-22s when you make the decision to occupy a people - you have to provide for them as well. It's an unfortunate little requirement that the international community annoyingly tends to hold you up on. Who exactly did you think I was seeking to blame for the Gazan black outs? Sri Lanka? Yet more reasons for Israel to withdraw.

    Israel didn't decide to "occupy" a people (it acted in self-defense in 1967), no more than the US decided to occupy Germany or Japan after WW II.

    I'll note further that Israel withdrew in 2005 (which is what made the situation deteriorate).
    You claim that Gaza is under the legitimate and "democratic" rule of Hamas.
    How then can it be "occupied"?

    p> Is your analogy meant to juxtapose the Palestinians with the Nazis...?

    I made no such comparison, didn't even mention the nazis.
    I compared the situation of providing power to someone who is bombing your cities.
    No wonder you avoided the question.

    Just as you continue to avoid the situation of Arab refugees in Arab countries.
    Yes, we know, you've already admitted that you aren't a "humanitarian".
    Again exposing that you aren't motivated by assisting people in need but by your own anti-Israel and anti-Jewish politics.

    Were Israel wiped off the map tomorrow, you wouldn't care one iota for Gaza.
    Just as you don't care in the least for the Arab refugees in Nahl el-Bared.

    Indeed, you even embrace the anti-gay Hamas, because the enemy of your enemy is your friend.
    You hate Israel/Jews more than you love democracy, secularism and gay rights combined.
    You aren't one to lecture others about the pathology of racism.
    Especially given your penchant in prior discussions to engage in racist-hatist logic.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 30, 2010 4:35 AM GMT
    Israel: If you get rid of Hamas we'll let you see your friends in the West Bank

    Gaza Strip: No! You forced us to elect the Hamas!

    Israel: No we didn't.

    Gaza Strip: Yes you did.

    Israel: No, YOU voted a terrorist group into power. Now vote it out and you can leave.

    Gaza Strip: OMG WE'RE IN PRISON! WAAAAA...tell the news to our millions of friends in Europe quick! Also tell them Jews control the media.

    Israel: If you were in prison, we'd keep you there no matter what you do. But we're giving you a choice. And you're choosing to stay in prison. Have fun.

    CHECK MATE BOO YAH!
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    Jul 30, 2010 5:08 AM GMT



  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 30, 2010 5:18 AM GMT
    I don't agree with this guy and he is not even Palestinian. MEMRI TV run by Israeli that modified the video and missed translated too.
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    Jul 30, 2010 5:46 AM GMT
    Ah, the typical self-contradicting arguments-for-the-cause:

    IanCT> I don't agree with this guy... MEMRI TV run by Israeli that modified the video and missed translated too.

    The translations by MEMRI are considered very accurate.
    Care to point out any errors?
    (Of course you can't.)

    If MEMRI "missed translated" what the guy said, then why don't you agree with him?
    Oh, that's right, you lied about this being mistranslated.


    IanCT> he is not even Palestinian.

    His rants are shown on Hamas TV.
    Doesn't it concern you that Hamas agrees with him?
    (Especially given that you claim to disagree with him.)

    This guy was born in Jordan to an Arab tribe - just like Nayef Hawatmeh (founder of the PFLP and DFLP terrorist groups).
    How come Hawatmeh is a "Palestinian" but this guy isn't?

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    Jul 30, 2010 5:56 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair said
    Talking is nothing. Show some action


    Oh don't worry. Hamas is trying to bomb Israel. Syria and Iran are supporting this. Soon you can move back to your homeland and go to gay clubs in Tel Aviv...I mean no wait. No more gay clubs for you.
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    Jul 30, 2010 6:57 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair> I don't go to "Gay club"... Not my place to hang out. I have better things to do.

    You call posting spam all over the internet, including vandalism of Wikipedia entries (to make them "more fair"), "better things to do"?!
    Man, you need a life!

    It's not just a lack of clubs, whatever your personal choices are about hanging out at them.
    Under Hamas rule, gay people don't have a life - sometimes literally.


    sxydrkhair> I am support my Palestinian people in Gaza.

    Why don't you support your "Palestinain people" in Lebanon?!
    Makes it look like you are anti-Israel rather than pro-Palestinian Arab.

    Why don't you support your gay people suffering under not just Hamas rule but also under the Palestinian Authority?
    (And don't bother with the apologism that Jordan eliminated the sodomy laws so it's technically not illegal.
    The problem is that gay people are persecuted and have no legal protection or recourse!)
    Makes it look like you hate Israel more than you love your gay brethren.
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    Jul 30, 2010 3:26 PM GMT
    C-4: Sorry if I misled you, but my friend does not actually LIVE in Gaza. He is a WORLD famous photojournalist. He is published in EVERY major magazine and newspaper in the world.
    The pics HE sent me, and are also shown on his website, depict a very different view of Gaza from what you show & describe. Say what you will, but heed this: A PICTURE is worth a thousand words. Dispute that!!
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    Jul 30, 2010 4:24 PM GMT
    friendsrbetter> The pics HE sent me, and are also shown on his website

    By all means, share his website with us so we can evaluate and discuss them.


    friendsrbetter> heed this: A PICTURE is worth a thousand words. Dispute that!!

    This is applicable to the pictures I posted (taken by people who do live in Gaza).

    So, for example, when tokugawa repeatedly spams that there is no rebuilding and no construction... and yet we have pictures of roads being built, of shopping malls being built, of olympic-sized pools being built, then the pictures (unlike the propagandists) do not lie.

    Extra credit question: with all the construction going on, why is it that we are told that it is impossible to repair a hospital?

    Reminds me of the time a few years ago that Hamas stole fuel from a hospital (for its own use) and then attempted to demonize Israel for a fuel shortage.
    With, of course, all the "useful idiots" then spamming that across the world.
    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=200107

    It is more important for Hamas to have a damaged hospital (or one without fuel) for anti-Israel propaganda than to have a hospital serving its people.
    As we've repeatedly seen, Hamas hates Israel and Jews more than it loves its subjects.
    It willingly sacrifices its own people (including lethally as suicide bombers and human shields) for the cause.


    Here's the problem with pictures: framing. There's the rather famous case of Beirut in the early 1980s. Peter Jennings, then the ABC Nightly News Anchor, was previously based in Beirut. As anchor (in the US), he interviewed his journalists and saw their reports - always positioned in front of a damaged building, with no "context" of neighboring buildings. As the situation heated up, ABC decided to send their anchor to Beirut. Once there, Jennings realized that despite extensive damage in several locations, the city on the whole wasn't Dresden or Warsaw after WW II - which is what he had been led to expect by his own news broadcasts.

    Is Gaza all wine & roses? Of course not.
    Is it "ruins"? Of course not.

    The problem is that propagandists post a handful of pictures as if the plural of anecdote is data. Reporters are complicit because they're not going to publish photos of 99 intact buildings but of the 100th building that is damaged. We often complain of this effect at gay pride rallies where it is always the fringe that make the news.

    At the other end, one photo can disprove a propaganda lie. For example, if homophobes claim that every gay person is "sick" and dresses up in drag or is a leather daddy, one photo of a handful of "normal" gay people disproves that. Likewise when anti-Israel propagandists say people are "starving" or that there are no fruits and vegetables in Gaza, that no construction is possible, that Gaza is in "ruins"... the photos I posted serve to disprove that.

    Regarding fruits and vegetables, two more notes need to be made. First, Gaza used to be an exporter of these. More recently, Hamas barred imports from Israel (to punish Israeli farmers)... only to then complain about the shortage they created.

    P.S. Where is your concern for the Arab refugees/descendents living in ruins in Arab countries?
    Do you think they should be provided (by Arab governments) the rights guaranteed to all other refugee populations?
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    Jul 31, 2010 4:31 AM GMT
    Well given that David Cameron put the Conservative Party into bed with some extreme [homophobic, anti-semitic] right wingers in the European Parliament, I'm not at all surprised that this sort of gaffe happens.

    The status of Gaza is far from what it should be, but it should be noted that there have been significant movements from Israel to ease the restrictions--admittedly under considerable international pressure. Israel should go further, but it would be politically much easier for it to do so if there was some--any---positive movement from Hamas. They might accept the right of Israel to exist, for example, and commit to a two-state [or even one-state!] solution.

    There is one seemingly very small thing they could do tomorrow which would ease tensions immeasurably: Free Gilad Shalit. It is high time.
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    Jul 31, 2010 6:46 AM GMT
    and why would any queer care about this Hatfield-McCoy silliness?
    . . . least of all an atheist . . . are there non-materialist atheists? if so, I'd love to hear the feeble argument . . . it's about an attachment to particular dirt, sad to say

    . . aesthetically, it's all a wash . . . i.e., ugliness forever and ever, age to age, beard to beard . . .
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    Jul 31, 2010 8:39 AM GMT
    TigerTim saidWell given that David Cameron put the Conservative Party into bed with some extreme [homophobic, anti-semitic] right wingers in the European Parliament, I'm not at all surprised that this sort of gaffe happens.

    The status of Gaza is far from what it should be, but it should be noted that there have been significant movements from Israel to ease the restrictions--admittedly under considerable international pressure. Israel should go further, but it would be politically much easier for it to do so if there was some--any---positive movement from Hamas. They might accept the right of Israel to exist, for example, and commit to a two-state [or even one-state!] solution.

    There is one seemingly very small thing they could do tomorrow which would ease tensions immeasurably: Free Gilad Shalit. It is high time.


    David Cameron is not anti-Semitic because he calls Gaza Strip a Prison Camp.

    1. Hamas exist all because of Israel's occupation.
    2. Gaza is not even a country. So they have right to fight against occupation.
    3. Why should Hamas recognize Israel, when Israel don't recognize them?
    4. Over 300 innocent Palestinians civilians are trapped in Israeli prisons.
    5. Hamas already recognize Israel within the 1967 borders before the Gaza war and siege.
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    Jul 31, 2010 8:47 AM GMT
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 31, 2010 12:48 PM GMT
    IanCT said

    David Cameron is not anti-Semitic because he calls Gaza Strip a Prison Camp.

    1. Hamas exist all because of Israel's occupation.
    2. Gaza is not even a country. So they have right to fight against occupation.
    3. Why should Hamas recognize Israel, when Israel don't recognize them?
    4. Over 300 innocent Palestinians civilians are trapped in Israeli prisons.
    5. Hamas already recognize Israel within the 1967 borders before the Gaza war and siege.



    I did not, if you actually read my post, claim that David Cameron was anti-Semitic. I do not think his statement was anti-semitic, though I do think it was misguided.

    I was referring to the fact that the Conservative Party has allied itself in the European Parliament with extreme far right people such as Michał Kamiński, a member of Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski which as I stated, is both homophobic and anti-semitic.
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    Jul 31, 2010 3:08 PM GMT
    NOREN said: "and why would any queer care about this Hatfield-McCoy silliness? "

    Precisely what the fundamentalist so-called Christians of this world would expect from a "fag"...we're far too busy being "queer" to give a shit about world affairs, right? .icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jul 31, 2010 7:08 PM GMT
    Where is your concern for the Arab refugees/descendents living in ruins in Arab countries?
    Do you think they should be provided (by Arab governments) the rights guaranteed to all other refugee populations?


    friendsrbetter> we're far too busy being "queer" to give a shit about world affairs, right?

    I'm curious regarding your partial and selective caring about "world affairs".


    Not going to share with us the photographer's web-site which misled you to believe that Gaza is in "ruins"?

    Not going to comment that the pictures I posted are also worth 1000 words?

    Nothing to add to the discussion about how a near-field picture leaves out context but can nonetheless disprove certain claims? For example, when propagandists claim there is no construction yet we can see that roads and malls are built? When they claim there are shortages of food and yet we can see pictures of well-stocked supermarket shelves?


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    Aug 01, 2010 2:37 AM GMT
    C4... go away now, little man. You're beginning to bore me. Find someone else to spar with...you're out of your league!! .icon_rolleyes.gif