The fascination with going B-A-R-E...

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 04, 2007 1:02 AM GMT
    This is an issue that almost ALWAYS comes up during sex.

    I lost my virginity when I was 21 (23 now). The first guy I was with was HIV+, which didn't bother me because I liked him for him. We were very safe and I am still HIV- and STD free.

    However, guys that followed (a number of them) always insisted on having sex without a condom. They always want to feel me inside of them bare.

    I even recall a few instances in which a guy would say, "Just put the head in for a minute." What the hell would that achieve?

    Now, I'm not hear to attack anyone who goes bare. That's you and your life, do what you want.

    My question is, why is going bare so damn great? I've never done it and will never do it until I'm in a LOOOONNNNG commited monogamous relationship. Even then, I would still be very paranoid, because hey, guys are liars.

    I've heard that for bottoms, it feels so great for them and such. However, I personally don't want to sacrafice my health for a few hours of sex. That's stupid.

    Yes, I know that when you have sex (protected or not), you are always risking catching something. It's funny how people get tested for HIV but never think of other STDs. Why don't people talk about other STDs too? That's another issue that can be addressed w/ my question as well.

    Don't give someone some std and/or sti that they don't want. You'll send up hearing Madonna's "Sorry" in your head. lol.



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    Jun 04, 2007 1:17 AM GMT
    I often struggle to understand this as well. If you can protect yourself some do it, its self preservation.

    I don't think people like to talk about STD's because there is some sorta stigma with having something. It makes you a whore in the eyes of everyone, even if you got it on your first time, the specifics don't matter to people. I think there is also a fear of if you get tested for the seven major STD's and you know you have something you would feel a guilt that you have to tell your partner(s) and that they may abandon you, making you a pariah or something.

    I get tested for everything once a year at least, with HIV at least four times a year. I also hold the feeling that if I ever have something it is my own fault and I would refuse to be a victim. Yet I also think if I ever had something would people still want to date me, could I still have a boyfriend? It's something that is scary to think about, I think that is why its not talked about. Gay people have a strong fear of rejection and having an STD is just another thing to be rejected for.
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    Jun 04, 2007 1:21 AM GMT
    hmm good points...

    I guess I'm different. Like I mentioned, my first was positive. He initially ran away from me when he told me b/c he assumed I'd reject him, which I didn't.

    I think when someone has other stds (such as Herpes), things can be very complicated. I don't think I could date someone with herpes because sex would be nearly impossible or so safe you might as well jack off by yourself.

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    Jun 04, 2007 3:23 AM GMT
    going back to the initial question, like anal sex, bareback is another [perhaps higher] level of intimacy between two men. That said obviously the place for it is in a monogamous committed relationships. I personally think those relationships do not exist. And hence these days there is no place for bareback sex and other ways of deeper intimacy need to be developed between two men.
  • OptimusMatt

    Posts: 1124

    Jun 04, 2007 3:27 AM GMT
    I dunno, I've been mulling over this topic for quite some time actually.

    I 'think' part of what's such a turn-on about going bare is the amount of intimacy and trust it implies - intimacy in the sense of having someone touching you skin to skin on the well as the out. trust in the sense that you're basically trusting the other person with your health, and even your life.

    *shrugs* that's the romanticized version though - the flip side may just be that society has placed such importance on bottoms getting off on getting filled, so...fill 'em up!


    With regards to getting tested...who gets tested for just one std? Lol, I...was unaware that people requested that, lol. I mean, my doctor has on several occasions ruled out tests for certain stds like gonorrhea because "I'd know it" but she's never really given me an option to be tested for one specific std.

  • cityguy39

    Posts: 967

    Jun 04, 2007 3:47 AM GMT
    Hey guys, check out my posting on Bare Backing, there are some great comments and observations there.
  • OptimusMatt

    Posts: 1124

    Jun 04, 2007 3:57 AM GMT
    Pft, Fuck that...I only read what's in the RECENT news beotch.

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    Jun 04, 2007 4:25 AM GMT
    The getting tested for more than one thing comes from not getting tested with a doctor but at a clinic, and if you don't ask for more testing than just the HIV you won't get it. You would be amazed at the number of people who just don't think about it, and therefore don't know.
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    Jun 04, 2007 4:27 AM GMT
    Exactly. Also, do you guys notice how on all sites they list "STATUS" with HIV only? What about other stds? They never have an option for that, which I think is unacceptable.

  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Jun 04, 2007 10:51 AM GMT
    If you're a grown up man and you want to have sex you're going to have to play safe
    ...barebacking or anything else that can possibly lead to transmission is absolutely crazy
    and there is no justification it's just that simple
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    Jun 04, 2007 2:12 PM GMT
    As an alternative perspective, I find it difficult to grasp why people find it difficult to grasp. Some points, neither pro nor con biased.

    a) barebacking means you have nearly zero non-innate protection. I.e. really good chance of sharing the not-so-good gifts of forever giving.

    b) barebacking feels awesome physically

    c) barebacking feels awesome emotionally

    d) some guys really enjoy knowing their partner shared with them their seed of life and components of it will spread through their body, STDs notwithstanding

    e) some guys think getting cum inside themselves is disgusting, STDs notwithstanding

    f) condoms rub raw

    g) condoms dull the sensation so a guy can last longer

    h) condoms make fudge packing less messy

    ...and on and on.

    There are a plethora of reasons guys do or don't like barebacking. Obviously I've not covered them all.

    All this said, condoms only help for STDs contracted via a mucosal interface. Bugs like Herpes don't give a rat's behind about condoms. Trust in this fact, there are a lot of bugs that happily go about on the outer surface of the skin.

    Condoms are not -the- encompassing solution. Condoms are -part- of a safe-sex solution. A good dose of common sense and STD awareness goes a long way as well.

    I have bare sex with my boyfriend and only my boyfriend. I have no trust issues with him in either direction. We're both cootie free and intend to stay that way. I consider this safe sex however many will disagree with me.

    It's sort of like an analogy with a the job of a firefighter (hi, yes, been there done that). Firefighting appears to be a horribly dangerous job. It isn't however. Statistically a person is more than 8,000 times more likely to suffer severe injury or death by driving on the highway than a firefighter is likely to get killed.

    Perception may not necessarily represent facts.

    I'm certainly not going to advocate a person sleep around without a condom, don't be a goat-fucked idiot.

    But the sometimes dribbling insanity about barebacking (no, it hasn't been espoused here) really gets on my nerves.

    Until the day when STDs are curable with an overnight pill, please use common sense and a good dose of caution if you choose to bareback. And if you seroconvert, don't tell use we didn't promise to bitch-slap the fuck outta you and say we told you so.

    And for the bug chasers that intentionally infect innocents, I hope your dick literally rots off and you roast in hell.

    have a nice day :)

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    Jun 04, 2007 2:26 PM GMT
    Barebacking is definantly a great feeling. The sense of intimacy is so much higher in my opinion. But I do agree that it's something that should only be done in a monogomous relationship. As far as and other sites only listing an option to check if you are HIV - or HIV + I dont think that matters at all. First of all if they did list more than one std like that then who would ever take the time to go down the list and look for an std that they have...its hard enough getting anybody to fill out there whole profile as it is. Even if you are just planning to hook up "which most of us have" you should wear a condom anyway if you want to protect yourself. Profiles should never be trusted especially not ones of the people you have never met. And some guys dont like to check the HIV box anyway even if they do have it because they dont feel that sex is as important as love, so can you blame them...I mean, who would want to be judged right off the bat of what ever std they may have before you even get to know them. In my opinion I dont think there should be an std box to check in any profile at all. Who can trust those profiles anyway. Besides I dont think that you should go into a relationship based on what STD's the other person has. For me, I will go on a few dates with someone before the issue of sex even comes up. Maybe I just dont have as big of a sex drive as every other gay man it seems...but I refuse to believe that sex is more important than love. Of course sex is considered by alot of gay men and heterosexuals to be an important part of a relationship, but for me I would rather have the genuine love of somebody who cares about me and who I care about. My soul mate is out there somewhere and I dont want to rule him out automatically because he has some disease. I wont let an infection win. A quick example: You meet someone, go on a few dates, discover he is everything you have been looking for and the last thing you want to find, and then you find out before you have had sex that he is HIV +. In my opinion if you make the descision to stop seeing this person based on that fact alone...isnt that pretty much letting the std win. So basically even if you havnt been infected with the std, a big part of you can still be affected.

    I know its a long post guys, and btw I dont have an STD. But I have dated a guy with HIV and there are steps that can be taken to prevent catching it.
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    Jun 04, 2007 8:13 PM GMT
    I'd only add to what's been said thusfar that sex, contrary to the way it's currently advocated, is not entirely rational nor are our desires in the moment. I'm not advocating barebacking but we must acknosledge that being "in the moment" can be so intense that you are, literally, willing to put your life on the line for that thrill.
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    Jun 04, 2007 8:42 PM GMT
    I'm not advocating barebacking but we must acknosledge that being "in the moment" can be so intense that you are, literally, willing to put your life on the line for that thrill.

    Say what? I'm sorry, but no sex is so intense that you forget about your life entirely. No excuses.

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    Jun 04, 2007 9:13 PM GMT
    To each his own though I would say perhaps (and kudos to you for being that way) you retain your own "calm collected rational demenor" while in bed while not everyone does. Like I said, I'm not advocating bb but I think there's something to be said for the acknowledgement that our sexual desires can be overpowering and can seem in the moment more important than anything else. After all, so goes the myth/story, a war which cost thousands of lives was fought over that hot piece, Helen of Troy; now, we may in 2007 say "God, who'd fight a war for a fine piece of ass?" Well, you'd be surprised what people will do if the desire is strong enough.

    That said, wearing a condom is definately part of the safe sex equation, albeit a part.
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    Jun 04, 2007 11:28 PM GMT
    u should not risk ur health for just a one night stand sex
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    Jun 05, 2007 3:25 AM GMT
    Actually, there is a word related to the phenomenon Jackal is describing -- "jouissance." In ordinary usage it refers to pleasure so intense it feels annihilating.

    In psychoanalytical usage (Lacanian variety) it can also refer to the conflation of the erotic drive and the death drive. If you wanna read one fascinating essay on it, you can read Leo Bersani's essay, "Is the Rectum a Grave?"

    My own doctoral dissertation grew out of an article I wrote for a psychology journal on barebacking and jouissance, theorizing that people take the risk because the risk itself heightens the pleasure. Except in the case of bug chasers and gift givers, this is not a conscious process. But it is amazing to see the degree to which people will go to repress acknowledgment of this -- developing all manner of rationale to defend high-risk barebacking.

    Incidentally, the quest for the ever larger cock may be in the interest of increasing jouissance, too. In Bersani's argument, anal sex is inherently painful and the more one adapts to increasing pain, the more pleasure there is.

    The French summarized this, as was mentioned in an earlier thread, by calling orgasm "le petit mort": the little death. A conflation of pleasure and death, in short.

    Of course, for many of us this process is sabotaged if we've been privy to the actual spectacle of AIDS death. People like me, who lost his first lover and most of his friends to the disease, don't have sex without feeling like we're engaged in a threeway with the angel of death.

    In my case, and the case of many others, unprotected anal sex is not merely risky, it is repugnant. Whatever it once represented in increased intimacy and intensified pleasure is completely eclipsed by the suffering it caused.

    I think if you did not have this experience -- of spending day after day in the hospital with horrifically dying friends for years -- you are lucky. And I would not wish that anyone be led to safe sex by such a soul-shattering experience.

    I think it's appropriate that people find their own way in this, but -- as I observed in another thread -- gay men are sadly uninformed about their history. The history of HIV is much more than medical, epidemiological.

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    Jun 05, 2007 7:10 PM GMT
    Another incredible post here on RealJock!

    Obscenewish said it all.

    Greatfully with forums like these, others can hopefully learn from the experiences of those of us older posters who have lived through the earlier stages of the AIDS epidemic.

    I speak out to my friends, expecially the younger ones, but most think it won't or can't happen to them.

    It is seemingly tabooish to bring it up often times.

    Many of my friends didn't have the choice of changing their lifestyle and not barebacking. They were infected before they had the opportunity to know any better.

    Then there are the friends who are in their 40's go to a circuit party, get high and try to act like a youngster again. They know better but common sense goes out the window. We lost one last year after only 2 years infected. He gave up.

    My early sexual experiences were all barebacking because that was expected back then, at least that is what I thought. The pressure to conform when you are younger sometimes coincides with making bad decisions.

    I think barebacking is much better sex than with a condom. The intimacy issues, trust issues, the raw man to man part etc.

    Luckily I was strictly a top in those days, so my odds were reduced and I was one of the lucky ones.

    That is why it is so important that we don't judge each other for the mistakes that we make, but hopefully learn from them on forums such as this one. And not repeat them.

    I wish daily that we could turn back the clock, it seems like those guys who are gone were all of the fun ones. Things are so much different now. I'm sure it's my age as there are tons of fun ones now!

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    Jun 06, 2007 10:13 AM GMT
    I think it's interesting to note how many guys on this website identify themselves as HIV negative. I mean how many really are negative? How do they know? Do they get themselves tested religiously every three months?

    I never bareback because I don't trust men. Period.
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    Jun 06, 2007 10:16 AM GMT
    Sorry, I mean, I don't trust men with my health.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 06, 2007 10:16 AM GMT
    Sorry, I mean, I don't trust men with my health.
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    Jun 06, 2007 6:17 PM GMT
    i couldnt have said it better redheadguy!
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    Jun 06, 2007 8:19 PM GMT
    To be honest people are careless. Whether its a result of them not caring about others or themselves, they just are.

    Its the same as people not washing their hands. People know that they should, that each time they don't they are risking so many viruses, but they refuse to any way.

    To be honest this world is divided into a lot of different groups, but primarily those who think ahead and those who don't.

    Those who think ahead prepare for the future; therefore they do things that won't jeopardize their future. Like wasting money, getting arrested for murder, or boning some slut without protection.

    And there are those who only live for the now, this very moment, this very second. They don't care about the future as long as this very moment is enjoyable and pleasurable. They are willing to get sick just to be able to brag about having a fat member in their arse.

    I don't mean to be vulgar, but its just the truth. some people just don't care. They are so caught up in the moment that they don't think. People have a tendency of thinking that they are invincible. It happens to other people but it'll never happen to me. Those are the people who get screwed in the end.

    The scariest thing is how ignorant people are when it comes down to STDs. You are right. there are so many other STDs out there besides HIV and I blame the media and especially the gay community for convincing people that its the only one to worry about.

    I do worry about HIV the most simply because of the fact that people get tested on a daily basis and still don't know that they are infected. unless you've gotten tested after 5 or 6 months, theres still a high possibility that you may be sick and just not know. So people take that into consideration when you're getting tested also.
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    Jun 06, 2007 10:40 PM GMT
    I also agree with redheadguy.

    I don't get tested every 3 months but I do at least 2 times per year.

    Here in Atlanta we have these places called AnyTest.

    Rather than going to a doctors office and waiting and then going back for the results, you can get "AnyTest" quickly.

    I do other general health test just as preventatives.

    PSA for prostate cancer and others.

    I have been in a monogamous relation (or have no reason to believe otherwise) for many years but I still do the HIV test.

    The reason is because there have been cases where insurance companies try to reduce awards for gay men just because of the possibility of them being HIV+.

    I don't think this kind of thing still happens, but if in the event of my untimely death, the insurance company could be shown years of negative results and not screw my partner.

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    Jun 07, 2007 2:07 PM GMT
    We will always be putting ourselves at risk no matter what. Not just men, but NO ONE can be trusted. I think its important to use a condom every single time, and even if you are in a monogomous relationship, that just means that he is the only one you are sleeping with (as far as you know). Dont make the mistake of thinking that condoms are 100% foolproof protection either. I dont use a condom with my boyfriend because I trust him, but if I ever did catch anything from him, I would have to step up and say that I made a bad judgement and take the responsibility because we are all responsible for our own health. For those of you who like to "live in the moment" and just dont care, all I have to say to that is at least be responsible to get tested and be aware of your STD status, so that you can let someone else know before you are putting them at risk. As long as you do that I dont give a rat's ass how many people you sleep with and bareback for, I dont have anything against you. It's when you put others health at risk because of your selfishness to just live in the moment that pisses me off. But then again I guess all of the barebackers who just live in the moment dont really have a reason to be mad if they do catch anything because they were aware of the risks going into it. At best they can just be pissed at themselves.