Gay Palestinians

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 30, 2010 5:32 AM GMT
    Interesting to see how they feel trapped between Palestine and Israel

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    Jul 30, 2010 5:56 AM GMT
    The Bubble is really a good movie to watch. It is about Israeli and Palestinian gay couples both suffering.

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    Jul 30, 2010 6:30 AM GMT
    So true Tel Aviv is a bubble. Almost no one inside it really cares about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If we could combine the two (Israel + Palestine) it should double the gay population. icon_cool.gificon_cool.gif
  • roadbikeRob

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    Jul 31, 2010 5:46 PM GMT
    Probably the only way that Palestinians and Israelis will ever live peacefully side by side is to permanently discard the horribly failed two state or two nation solution that most world leaders blindly support and pursue a one nation solution where both Israelis and Palestinians are equal citizens. That could also solve the persistant thorny problem of Jerusalem's status.
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    Aug 07, 2010 6:47 PM GMT
    Amazing. How many (er, few) licks before the usual suspects turn to demonizing Israel?

    roadbikerob> pursue a one nation solution where both Israelis and Palestinians are equal citizens

    Arabs and Jews are already equal citizens in Israel. Israeli Arabs (20% of the population) are full citizens with equal protection under the law. Indeed, Israeli Arabs have more rights, freedoms and liberties, as well as a higher standard of living and better quality of life, than Arabs living in neighboring Arab countries (indeed, all Arab countries if we exclude the financial wealth of a few tiny oil sheikdoms). This is why rather than sneak out of Israel, Arabs try to sneak IN.

    Israeli Arabs not only vote but serve in the Knesset (parliament) and as ministers in the ruling government coalition. They serve in the foreign office, including as ambassadors to other countries. They serve in the judiciary, including as justices on the High (supreme) Court - the only such court in the middle east, where an Arab citizen can sue his own government, live to tell about it, and win or lose the case based only on its legal merits. Israeli Arabs even serve in the IDF, the Israeli Defense Forces, achieving ranks as high as Generals while defending their country.

    In other words, RBR's statement is akin to saying that there must be a one-state solution incorporating the USA & China (assuming they were adjacent) as one nation so that Chinese people can be free. I think we all realize how briefly this "one-state solution" would remain democratic and what would happen to our rights and liberties.


    The majority of Israelis and the majority of Palestinian Arabs do not support the so-called "one state solution". Both people wish to have their own self-determination. Just as was true with the Czechs and the Slovakians. Just as is true with Canada being distinct from the USA.

    If the Palestinian Arabs don't wish their own state, then the disputed territories can again become part of Egypt and Jordan, as they were between 1949-1967.

    Isn't it odd how for 40 years we've heard how the Palestinian Arabs require their own self-determination? Funny not only because this wasn't heard prior to 1967, but because as soon as it appeared that this could be realized without Israel's destruction... it was shelved? Yet if Palestinian Arab self-determination isn't necessary, then why not have Egypt rule Gaza (again) and Judea & Samaria resume as the "West Bank" of Jordan?

    Unless, of course, the real motivation of the "one state solution" is the elimination of Israel, the Jewish state?
    Hmmmm....


    sxydrkhair> Gay Palestinians

    It is simply mind-boggling that samxr, again, advances the misinformation that it is "legal to be gay in Palestine". First it's odd that he takes pride that Jordan decriminalized homosexuality (when it abandoned a bunch of British era laws, not as part of a gay rights movement). More importantly, gays in the areas under PA & Hamas rule have NO legal protections, as was discussed in this topic (and many before that):

    Countries that support gays or kill them
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/984797

    The fact of the matter is that gay Palestinian Arabs flee to Israel for freedom and safety.


    sxydrkhair> Justice now! End the Israeli Apartheid!

    Not only do we see that samxr can't engage in intelligent debate beyond endlessly spamming the same soundbites and slogans, but that in a topic about "Gay Palestinians" he is more concerned with bashing Israel (not ending a non-existing "apartheid", but fighting to end Israel).

    Peace certainly won't come while gay Palestinian Arabs hate the Jews/Israel more than they love or care for their Arab brethren (including their gay brothers an d sisters).
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    Aug 07, 2010 8:05 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidProbably the only way that Palestinians and Israelis will ever live peacefully side by side is to permanently discard the horribly failed two state or two nation solution that most world leaders blindly support and pursue a one nation solution where both Israelis and Palestinians are equal citizens. That could also solve the persistant thorny problem of Jerusalem's status.


    Taking the idea up to the next level, wouldn't it be great if we had just one world "nation"?

    To paraphrase one of the many astronauts of the past, "From up here, I can't see any lines on the ground."

    No more war.

    I can hope, can't I?

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    Aug 07, 2010 10:38 PM GMT
    Southbeach> How come you can post your point in under 100 words, yet Caeasarea4 needs at least 500 words

    Because I build and support an argument rather than string together straw men, false accusations, silly slogans and vacuous soundbites?
    Because I actually pick apart and refute the nonsense, brief or otherwise, others post?


    As usual, unable to support or defend what he said above, samxr spews forth a new list of (attempted) demonizations:

    sxydrkhair> C4 is the only guy here think there is no extremist in Israel.

    Straw man. I never said anything of the sort. To the contrary, I've pointed out that the small number of extremists in Israel are not in power and are kept in check by the democratically elected authorities.


    sxydrkhair> What about Israeli prime minster blame gay for earthquake in Jerusalem?

    Which prime minister was that?
    No such thing ever happened!


    sxydrkhair> What about religious Orthodox Jews anti-gay and want to kill homosexuals?

    What about them? This tiny minority (Orthodox Jews no more support the murder of gays than do most Christians) does NOT rule Israel. samxr is engaging in hatist stereotyping.


    sxydrkhair> What about Israeli settlers anti-gay groups attack gay Israeli?

    I think there was one such incident (spammed, of course, on RJ) - so again samxr is engaged in a hateful campaign of stereotyping a group, demonizing it - based on the action of one person.


    Gays and lesbians in the PA territories and in Gaza under Hamas rule have no legal protections.
    Gays and lesbian Palestinian Arabs flee to Israel for freedom and safety.

    The fact of the matter is that Israel is one of the top-10 countries in the world for gays and lesbians.
    So why are samxr, southbeach & pouncer trying to demonize Israel under the pretense of gay rights?!
    Obviously the source of this politics of hate and demonization has nothing to do with gay rights.


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    Aug 08, 2010 12:26 AM GMT
    pouncer> If there actually was even one such incidence, then how can posting it on RJ be spam?

    The topic was just another false pretense to condemn not the single perpetrator, but an entire country.
    I'm not surprised you don't see the problem with that.

    Just as it's not surprising that you lost track that this topic is titled "Gay Palestinians" and not "Spam more anti-Israel crap".


    The abridged version for the benefit of Southbeach:

    Gays and lesbians in the PA territories and in Gaza under Hamas rule have no legal protections.
    Gays and lesbian Palestinian Arabs flee to Israel for freedom and safety.

    The fact of the matter is that Israel is one of the top-10 countries in the world for gays and lesbians.
    So why are samxr, southbeach & pouncer trying to demonize Israel under the pretense of gay rights?!
    Obviously the source of this politics of hate and demonization has nothing to do with gay rights.


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    Aug 08, 2010 12:53 AM GMT
    Southbeach said, "Who cares whether it is a real or fake profile?

    This is an internet chat forum... nothing really matters here."

    and

    "Again... this is an internet forum.... it's not an important place."


    So we suggest others simply ignore him and his topics because, in his own words....(see above).
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    Aug 08, 2010 3:00 AM GMT
    The extremists on the Israeli side are a tiny, marginal, fringe.

    sxydrkhair> In other words in C4's mind "no such extremists" in Israel....

    ROTFL. Not surprising from someone who given two numbers couldn't calculate a percentage.


    In the PA, they [extremists] are a sizeable percentage of the population.
    In Gaza, they are the government.


    sxydrkhair> In his little world. The Palestinians are a "sizable percentage of the population" extremists.

    Another point going over samxr's head.


    Gays and lesbians in the PA territories and in Gaza under Hamas rule have no legal protections.
    Gays and lesbian Palestinian Arabs flee to Israel for freedom and safety.


    sxydrkhair> Have you ever ask yourself why?
    duhhh.. IT IS OCCUPATION!

    Gay people don't have legal protections or social standing under PA and Hamas rule because of the "occupation"?

    This is a variation of the previous "explanation" that the PA isn't a government and can't pass laws to protect gay people. The reality is that it is and has passed laws - but protecting the rights of gay people is not on the agenda. Not the PA's, not Fatah's, not Hamas's.

    While there are now gay Palestinian Arab rights groups, they are based in Israel.
    The problem isn't the intransigence of the authorities, but the societal rejection of homosexuality.

    sxydrkhair doesn't care, he'd rather blame Israel.

    Reality: even if Israel didn't exist, the situation of gays in "Palestine" (not that it would even be called that) wouldn't be different. In fact, Israel is the best thing going for gay Palestinian Arabs living under Arab rule.

    But not for samxr. He happily sits in Arizona while putting their lives on the line in pursuit of his anti-Israel uber alles goal.

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    Aug 08, 2010 3:18 AM GMT
    These are the extremists:
    female_suicide_bomber_2.jpg

    And this is their handiwork:
    07.jpg


    Once again sxydrkhair proves that he cares more to bash Israel than to protect his gay brethren.
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    Aug 08, 2010 3:42 AM GMT
    While there are now gay Palestinian Arab rights groups, they are based in Israel.
    The problem isn't the intransigence of the authorities, but the societal rejection of homosexuality.

    sxydrkhair doesn't care, he'd rather blame Israel.

    Reality: even if Israel didn't exist, the situation of gays in "Palestine" (not that it would even be called that) wouldn't be different. In fact, Israel is the best thing going for gay Palestinian Arabs living under Arab rule.

    But not for samxr. He happily sits in Arizona while putting their lives on the line in pursuit of his anti-Israel uber alles goal.
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    Aug 08, 2010 4:35 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair> All you hear from the propaganda media or newspapers.

    That's what we hear from you and IanCT.

    Are you denying the sad state of gay people under PA/Fatah and Hamas rule?
    That they come to Israel for freedom and safety?


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    Aug 08, 2010 6:34 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    .... because it's been about 2 weeks since the last "Let's Get Southbeach Thrown Off RJ" and "Let's Ignore The Troll SouthBeach" topic was posted. icon_lol.gif


    Gosh, has it been that long? icon_lol.gif

    Sigh, but then...

    Haters_gonna_hate.gif
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    Aug 08, 2010 3:54 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair> Palestine is not even a state.

    Which is completely irrelevant. Puerto Rico and American Samoa aren't states, either.
    So what? Why are you making so many excuses?
    Again you are showing that hating Israel is more important to you than "Palestinian Gays" (the topic!)

    If Arab Palestine wanted to pass a law prohibiting discrimination against gays, it could.
    If the PLC wanted to pass a law allowing gays to marry, it could.
    Have you ever written them to advocate they do so?!
    No? Then you are part of the problem.
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    Aug 08, 2010 6:31 PM GMT
    C4, I don't know what I admire more about you. Either it's your ability to respond intelligently to garbled pieces of 'information' and non-sequiturs, or, legitimate researching and presenting facts. Whatever, it is very refreshing.
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    Aug 08, 2010 7:10 PM GMT
    Once again we get the myriad of anti-Israel accusations as excuses.

    The fact of the matter is that, if it wanted to, the PLC could pass gay rights laws.
    It doesn't, and that has absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

    Again and again you prove that you hate Israel more than you care for your gay brethren under the rule of the PA and Hamas.
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    Aug 09, 2010 1:55 AM GMT
    Isn't it amazing?
    Pouncer still can't address the topic, "Gay Palestinians", and thinks this is another "throw the kitchen sink at Israel" topic.
    So much for his being "pro-Palestinian" rather than "anti-Zionist".

    As usual, his own data undermines his point. Consider the last photo, showing a mostly undamaged Gaza.
    (It's not Israel's fault that Hamas and its ilk fires rockets - at Israeli civilians - from the midst of Gaza city.
    Under international law, Israel has the right to fire back.)

    All of which is plentifully discussed in these topics:
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1058606#54845_1059567_name
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/973888


    Now back to this topic:

    Gays and lesbians in the PA territories and in Gaza under Hamas rule have no legal protections.
    Gay and lesbian Palestinian Arabs flee to Israel for freedom and safety.


    Even if Israel didn't exist, the situation of gays in "Palestine" (not that it would even be called that) wouldn't be different.
    In fact, Israel is the best thing going for gay Palestinian Arabs living under Arab rule.
    While there are now gay Palestinian Arab rights groups, they are based in Israel.
    The problem isn't only the intransigence and hostility of the PA & Hamas authorities, but the societal rejection of homosexuality.


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    Aug 09, 2010 4:00 AM GMT
    I am gay Palestinian living in Bethlehem now. My whole family know about me even the whole town of Bethlehem know about me being gay. They don't care. You are thinking of religious people especially people in Gaza. They are very conservative that believe homosexual is immoral like what you guys have in the United States. They don't kill them because they are homosexual or fled to Israel because of them. They fled to Israel for one main reason because of their Israeli lovers. Some Palestinians think they are traitor or collaborator with them.

    If you guys watch The Bubble. I wish they have it on youtube.

    I agree with sxydrkhair there are extremists on both sides. Israeli occupation make it worse.
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    Aug 09, 2010 5:26 AM GMT
    IanCT> there are extremists on both sides.

    False equivalence.

    The difference is that the Israeli extremists build "settlements".
    While the Palestinian Arab extremists blow up busses and markets.

    The difference is that the Israeli extremists are a tiny number on the fringe.
    While the Palestinian Arab extremists and supporters are between 1/3rd and 2/3rds of the population.

    The difference is that the Israeli government and police control the Israeli extremists.
    While the Palestinian Arab extremists, at least in Gaza, are in power.


    IanCT> Israeli occupation make it worse.

    An "occupation" is what happens between war and peace.
    It's unfortunate that you and yours are quick to war but slow to peace.

    The problem is that you prefer the "occupation" to making compromise and peace.
    The "occupation" has no impact on the status of gays in the PA territories.
    If anything, the Israeli influence has had a positive effect.


    IanCT> the whole town of Bethlehem know about me being gay

    Odd. I recently met a gay guy from Bethlehem and asked him if anyone was "out" in Bethlehem.
    He said no and that no such thing was possible.


    IanCT> You are thinking of religious people especially people in Gaza. They are very conservative that believe homosexual is immoral like what you guys have in the United States.

    Ayman Abu Aita (a potential Fatah candidate for parliamentary elections, if they are ever held again) is suing Sasha Baron Cohen over his appearance in the film "Bruno":

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/31/bruno-israel-terrorist
    He says it is also damaging for him to appear in a gay film, which features nudity and graphic sex scenes. "With our culture and our heritage we refuse such things," says Abu Aita.

    The fact of the matter is that the Palestinian Arab gay rights groups are based in Israel because they can't be based in "Palestine".


    IanCT> They fled to Israel for one main reason because of their Israeli lovers.

    Bunk. Most had no way to meet an Israeli lover before they fled to Israel.

    http://www.gaytoday.com/people/093002pe.asp
    Palestinians are being persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and killed by their own people, their own government. Many of them flee to Israel, knowing that they will get better treatment from "the enemy".


    If you wish us to believe that you are out and everyone knows and it is accepted, maybe you can tell us what gay activism you have undertaken? Have you written letters to your representatives? Perhaps urged the mayor of Bethlehem to create a domestic partner registry or provide fringe benefits to same-sex partners?
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    Aug 09, 2010 6:52 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair> C4 is the only guy here think there is no extremist in Israel.

    Straw man. I never said anything of the sort. To the contrary, I've pointed out that the small number of extremists in Israel are not in power and are kept in check by the democratically elected authorities.

    sxydrkhair> No extremist in Israel?! That is almost laughable!!

    What is completely laughable is your repetition of a straw man argument which was already exposed.
    Do you know what a "straw man" is?


    Isn't it funny how sxydrkhair abandons the topic of "Gay Palestinians" in order to attempt to bash Israel - based on 2-3 extremists?
    Who but a racist hatist would even make such an argument?!

    His Haaretz article is from more than 2.5 years ago and Jerusalem has had 2 gay parades since.
    Despite the protestations of orthodox Jews - and Arab Muslims and Christians.
    How many pride marches have there been in Bethlehem, Ramallah or Gaza?


    The fact of the matter is that Israel is one of the top-10 countries in the world for gays and lesbians.
    Gays and lesbians in the PA territories and in Gaza under Hamas rule have no legal protections.
    Gay and lesbian Palestinian Arabs flee to Israel for freedom and safety.
    So why are samxr and IanCT trying to demonize Israel under the pretense of gay rights - about which they clearly don't care?!

    They still hate Israel more than they love or care for their gay brethren who are beaten, tortured and murdered.
    Both by their families and by the Palestinian Authority.
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    Aug 09, 2010 7:04 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair> I can go on and list all extremists in Israel.

    Then clearly there can't be that many.


    sxydrkhair> How can there be a gay pride in the war zone (Palestine not even a country.)

    Neither is Puerto Rico, and yet they have a gay pride celebration.
    Bethlehem is no more a "war zone" than Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.
    Stop already with your idiotic excuses.

    IanCT tells us its no big deal to be gay in Bethlehem.
    So why can't there be a gay pride march in Bethlehem?
    Blaming the "occupation" is BS. There are no Israeli soldiers in Bethlehem.
    All it takes is a handful of people waving some pride flags.
    Why hasn't it happened? Not in Bethlehem, not in Ramallah, not in Nablus, not in Gaza....
    (Ah, that's the problem, isn't it? That there aren't any Israeli soldiers in those cities to protect the marchers or come to their rescue!)


    Did you wish to - finally - say something about the topic?
    It's not "demonize Israel uber alles" but "Gay Palestinians".

    What are you doing to advance gay rights in "Palestine"?
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    Aug 09, 2010 7:22 AM GMT
    Did you wish to - finally - say something about the topic?
    It's not "demonize Israel uber alles" but "Gay Palestinians".

    What are you doing to advance gay rights in "Palestine"?
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    Aug 09, 2010 7:33 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidIan, it is impossible to be out in Bethelhem. I think you are talking about relatives and close friends, not the whole town.


    sorry dude... that what I meant to say.


    c4, fatah is a secular movement and hamas is a religious fundamentalist movement. so yes there are some extremists in both political parties. i am sure there are some extremists in israeli government as well. don't take it a wrong way. extremists are everywhere dude. even in the u.s.
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    Aug 09, 2010 1:15 PM GMT
    http://www.gaytoday.com/people/093002pe.asp
    Palestinians are being persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and killed by their own people, their own government. Many of them flee to Israel, knowing that they will get better treatment from "the enemy".

    IanCT> blah blah blah Israel blah blah blah
    sxydrkhair> blah blah blah "occupation" blah blah blah.
    pouncer> blah blah blah Gaza blah blah blah

    How sad that all 3 of these people care so little about gay rights.
    They continue to be consumed by their hate of Israel uber alles.