So I went out to this gay club

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    Aug 01, 2010 12:41 PM GMT
    With my 'friend' after we had gone out and grabbed something to eat beforehand. We met up with two of his friends while at the club. It was this girl who was one of his best friends and her boyfriend. This dude works for the five O but he decided to put himself in a gay club anyway.

    Anyway, the night was pretty interesting and fun and we talked alot together and had drinks. Somethings really bothering me about the night though. The straight guy who was there was chill as shit and really cool in every way and a very masculine guys guy. I found an interesting dynamic came about, and one that usually causes a lot of uncomfortable questions for me. I am a dude, just as this dude was a DUDE. I think this dude was probably wondering what I was doing there. Because when he first saw me, when we introduced and shook hands, I immediately saw him size me up, which I thought was funny. I think he felt threatened that a "gay" man could possibly be just as manly as he was. I think I like to play up both sides to my personality. When I am around a dude..my dude side comes out and there is that competitiveness. When I am in a gay atmosphere, I can act differently and almost adapt a different persona. I think it was complicated because it was like I was in both worlds at once; with that dude there. Does anyone else do this?

    I started thinking and questioning why it was I got along better and more easily with this straight dude, who is like me, than the rest of the people in the club. And I couldn't help but feel a part of him felt threatened by having a guy who does things with other guys, and who is also masculine there with him.

    I guess it just made me start questioning myself deep down, getting insecure again about the paths I have taken. Part of me was wondering if I was really straight, but somehow just got into this gay thing just because...I was curious about it, just got off on a tangent and kept going? I know that sounds crazy and that I should be way past this.

    Sometimes I wonder if tihs is really me, or if I would really be better off just getting back into the mainstream with women. But what if the tangent has become the mainstream, for me?

    A penny for your thoughts...
  • Buddha

    Posts: 1765

    Aug 01, 2010 12:50 PM GMT
    You emphasize masculinity in contrast to homosexaulity, when the two do not necessarily have to opposites.

    That'll be a whole dollar you cheap bastard.
  • Buddha

    Posts: 1765

    Aug 01, 2010 1:17 PM GMT
    have to be*

    For a more in-depth answer, I can relate to you to some extent. In most cases when I come out to people, people say "Wow I wouldn't have guessed".

    And for a brief moment I am happy, but then I wonder why I'm happy. Is it because I feel like I'm breaking a gay norm? Is it because the person is confirming my masculinity? And why am I happy that this person is a fucking bigot who thinks all gay people have broken wrists and born with a lisp? I know that they're trying to give a compliment but I think it comes out wrong; at least in the end when I set aside my ego getting boosted. Because it's very easy to forget and reinforce the norm that all gay guys behave in a certain way.

    The scenario that you explain could simply be the simple case of trying to assert the role of an alpha-male. Again this has nothing to do with your sexuality, it has to do with that you have a dick and society has said "Hey, you have a dick; congrats, you get to be in the dick-club". Which is my allegory for norms.

    But it's difficult to get away from situations where one feels the need to prove their masculinty, especially if you're heavily indoctrinated with the male norm. I know I do, and while part of me thinks it's stupid; I still do it.

    You wonder if you're really gay. There is nothing I can say about your sexuality; your sexuality is something you define by yourself. However, again, questioning your sexuality because you get along better with a person or a certain group of people is kind of... not relevant at all. I hang out with gamers; they're mostly hetero but just because I share something with them doesn't make me think. "Hey, they like Final Fantasy, and they're straight, so maybe I'm straight too?".

    Because in the end if you like thrusting your penis into a man's ass, that fact won't change regardless if you like to go to the gym, play poker or headshot retarded noobs online. That fact won't change even if you're a dominant alpha-male, the most optimistic guy in the room or an effeminate guy. When you're fucking someone, it won't MATTER if the person who has a dick inside them, or having a dick in you, likes to play chess or not.
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    Aug 01, 2010 1:23 PM GMT
    Lighten up.... have fun. Life's too friggin' short.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Aug 01, 2010 1:34 PM GMT
    And I thought I overanalyzed certain things....

    You aren't comfortable with you are yet. I don't think there is anything out of place about getting an impression about somebody (and that impression is that the other person is much like you.... I do it at times), but some of you words I find interesting (you see, now I'm analyzing you). Sizing up? "I'm a dude as this dude was a dude".... so the other gay men weren't dudes? Ah, you mean he was a straight, masculine acting guy and the rest were not?

    Now I'm not on your case, but I do find what you relayed including this part:

    "I started thinking and questioning why it was I got along better and more easily with this straight dude, who is like me, than the rest of the people in the club. And I couldn't help but feel a part of him felt threatened by having a guy who does things with other guys, and who is also masculine there with him."


    Who cares if he or you.. do "things" with other guys. You didn't say how long you have been "out"... or are you? Is this just a foray into the world of gays and you really view yourself as "straight", but just sort of checking things out. Sort of like
    putting your feet in a pool at the shallow end on the steps. All you need to do is hop back out again.

    I was there once.

    I think you need to spend more time getting comfortable with who you are and less about worrying about what others are thinking. Perhaps you will come to the conclusion, like many of us here... its all about enjoying life and acceptance.
  • Celticmusl

    Posts: 4330

    Aug 01, 2010 1:55 PM GMT
    I can relate to a great deal of these issues.

    1. Many straight guys are threatened by gay men that are masculine and that can "pass" for straight. It means they might already know some gay men and not know it. It also means we hear what they say when they think "the gays" aren't around. Like Homer Simpson said: "I like my beer cold, and my homosexuals flaming!".

    2. The more flamboyant my company, the more flamboyant I become, although there is a limit. Many gays get offended that I am saying or doing things a little more fem than usual. Even the gays want to put you in a box and label you as either masculine or fem it seems.

    3. Other than liking sex with other guys, I am very straight in many respects. Whether that is good or bad, I don't know. I'm so straightish that more and more I've been considering marrying a woman and having children in a pretty much sexless marriage. Considering I RARELY have sex anyway when I'm single, what's the difference really.

    I'm looking for a life partner and although it would be great if that person was another gay guy, it's as if many gays don't even understand the concept of platonically dating, fidelity, monogamy, marriage as a lifelong endeavor, etc.

    Anyway, it's good that the OP is observing these things at a younger age.

  • _gingin

    Posts: 116

    Aug 01, 2010 1:58 PM GMT
    stop overanalysing and start overANALysing!
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    Aug 01, 2010 2:00 PM GMT
    Honestly, it sounds like you were doing what the kids nowadays call "straight acting" and it seems to me that you were such a good actor that you got confused by your own method acting. LOL

    And the Oscar goes to....
    Sylas ...for playing it "chill as shit" with the five O...

    Acceptance Speech:

    When I am around a dude..my dude side comes out and there is that competitiveness. When I am in a gay atmosphere, I can act differently and almost adapt a different persona. I think it was complicated because it was like I was in both worlds at once; with that dude there. Thank you, Jesus!

    Applause

    Part of me was wondering if I was really straight,

    What did the other part wonder?
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    Aug 01, 2010 2:02 PM GMT
    OP, you're simply a gay man with a masculine demeanor. We're not all that uncommon...just invisible to society. That's why they say things like "you're the straightest gay guy I've ever met." It's not always a compliment. Sometimes it means they think you should "act your type" because it makes them feel threatened.

    As far as adopting a different persona in gay bars, I've found that to be a very stupid thing to do. It makes people like you for one persona, then hate you later when they find out you were only faking it. Just be yourself, whether it's masculine, feminine, or somewhere in between. That's the only way people will like you for you.
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    Aug 01, 2010 2:31 PM GMT
    Sylas saidSometimes I wonder if tihs is really me, or if I would really be better off just getting back into the mainstream with women. But what if the tangent has become the mainstream, for me?

    A penny for your thoughts...

    This one's on me. But where to begin? Sexuality -- it doesn't come in just 3 flavors: straight, gay & bi. Instead it's a Kinsey scale, of infinite points along a line, with bi in the dead center.

    You can be anywhere along that line. But I believe there are very few humans, if any, who are all the way to the last point at either the all-straight or all-gay ends of that scale. In other words, EVERYONE has some gay and some straight in him or her. So what's YOUR mix?

    Well, mine's about an 8 or 9, assigning a 10 value to the fully gay end, and 1 to the straight opposite. But an interesting fact is that you don't stay in one spot on the scale your whole life -- you migrate a little. In fact, it can even happen situationally, like in a gay club sitting with a particular mix of gay & straight people.

    No, you won't turn from mostly gay to mostly straight in the blink of an eye, but you may shift a little. And that's normal.

    Now the way I use the Kinsey scale is solely about sexual attraction. That is not the same as sexual mannerisms, which buddha here observed about your post. You may have some confusion there.

    Masculine acting guys can be gay, and effeminate-acting guys can be straight. And in my experience, more gay men are masculine than effeminate, though the fems get most of the attention (and mostly deliberately on their part -- my little dig for the day), hence the myth that gay men are faux-women.

    The affinity you felt with that guy was probably based on shared interests, attitudes and outlooks, and not necessarily a matter of sexual attraction, though we often confuse the two. Hell, I have a high-comfort level and good friendship with a number of lesbians, but I'm not going to bed with any of them, and I'm quite sure they harbor no such thoughts about me.

    But we do like each other's company, and to hang out together at times. Ya know, it's OK to just have friends, they don't all have to be candidates for the bedroom. But at 23 you are supposed to try to be framing your relationships in sexual terms, it's what males your age do, perfectly normal.

    Sometimes young men just need to give their hormones the night off, however, and let their brains have some fun for a few hours.
    icon_wink.gif
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    Aug 01, 2010 3:20 PM GMT
    Your profile says you're attracted to SOME guys, and attracted to women. So, you get a stiffy for both. One thing we both notice from time to time on here is the assumption that people must be gay or straight.

    You're Bi. You're neither gay or straight. Relax and enjoy it. When you fall in love it'll be with either a man or a woman. icon_wink.gif
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Aug 01, 2010 4:09 PM GMT
    Sylas saidWith my 'friend' after we had gone out and grabbed something to eat beforehand. We met up with two of his friends while at the club. It was this girl who was one of his best friends and her boyfriend. This dude works for the five O but he decided to put himself in a gay club anyway.

    Anyway, the night was pretty interesting and fun and we talked alot together and had drinks. Somethings really bothering me about the night though. The straight guy who was there was chill as shit and really cool in every way and a very masculine guys guy. I found an interesting dynamic came about, and one that usually causes a lot of uncomfortable questions for me. I am a dude, just as this dude was a DUDE. I think this dude was probably wondering what I was doing there. Because when he first saw me, when we introduced and shook hands, I immediately saw him size me up, which I thought was funny. I think he felt threatened that a "gay" man could possibly be just as manly as he was. I think I like to play up both sides to my personality. When I am around a dude..my dude side comes out and there is that competitiveness. When I am in a gay atmosphere, I can act differently and almost adapt a different persona. I think it was complicated because it was like I was in both worlds at once; with that dude there. Does anyone else do this?

    I started thinking and questioning why it was I got along better and more easily with this straight dude, who is like me, than the rest of the people in the club. And I couldn't help but feel a part of him felt threatened by having a guy who does things with other guys, and who is also masculine there with him.

    I guess it just made me start questioning myself deep down, getting insecure again about the paths I have taken. Part of me was wondering if I was really straight, but somehow just got into this gay thing just because...I was curious about it, just got off on a tangent and kept going? I know that sounds crazy and that I should be way past this.

    Sometimes I wonder if tihs is really me, or if I would really be better off just getting back into the mainstream with women. But what if the tangent has become the mainstream, for me?

    A penny for your thoughts...


    oh will you just give up the whole i like sports and wear levi jeans and don't own cher cds facade. BEING GAY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR TASTE IN ANYTHING; IT MEANS YOU'RE A GUY WHO IS ATTRACTED EMOTIONALLY AND PHYSICALLY TO MEN! you want to be straight then go start making babies. truth of the matter is the biggest turn on for me are guys who are confident enough in who they are not to have to play the "masculine" card.
  • Celticmusl

    Posts: 4330

    Aug 01, 2010 4:17 PM GMT
    calibro said
    Sylas saidWith my 'friend' after we had gone out and grabbed something to eat beforehand. We met up with two of his friends while at the club. It was this girl who was one of his best friends and her boyfriend. This dude works for the five O but he decided to put himself in a gay club anyway.

    Anyway, the night was pretty interesting and fun and we talked alot together and had drinks. Somethings really bothering me about the night though. The straight guy who was there was chill as shit and really cool in every way and a very masculine guys guy. I found an interesting dynamic came about, and one that usually causes a lot of uncomfortable questions for me. I am a dude, just as this dude was a DUDE. I think this dude was probably wondering what I was doing there. Because when he first saw me, when we introduced and shook hands, I immediately saw him size me up, which I thought was funny. I think he felt threatened that a "gay" man could possibly be just as manly as he was. I think I like to play up both sides to my personality. When I am around a dude..my dude side comes out and there is that competitiveness. When I am in a gay atmosphere, I can act differently and almost adapt a different persona. I think it was complicated because it was like I was in both worlds at once; with that dude there. Does anyone else do this?

    I started thinking and questioning why it was I got along better and more easily with this straight dude, who is like me, than the rest of the people in the club. And I couldn't help but feel a part of him felt threatened by having a guy who does things with other guys, and who is also masculine there with him.

    I guess it just made me start questioning myself deep down, getting insecure again about the paths I have taken. Part of me was wondering if I was really straight, but somehow just got into this gay thing just because...I was curious about it, just got off on a tangent and kept going? I know that sounds crazy and that I should be way past this.

    Sometimes I wonder if tihs is really me, or if I would really be better off just getting back into the mainstream with women. But what if the tangent has become the mainstream, for me?

    A penny for your thoughts...


    oh will you just give up the whole i like sports and wear levi jeans and don't own cher cds facade. BEING GAY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR TASTE IN ANYTHING; IT MEANS YOU'RE A GUY WHO IS ATTRACTED EMOTIONALLY AND PHYSICALLY TO MEN! you want to be straight then go start making babies. truth of the matter is the biggest turn on for me are guys who are confident enough in who they are not to have to play the "masculine" card.


    So it's ironic that he is confident enough to like sports and wear levi jeans because that's who he is, and you're hating on him for it. Just because he doesn't like Cher doesn't mean he is living under a facade.

  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Aug 01, 2010 4:34 PM GMT
    Celticmusl said
    calibro said


    oh will you just give up the whole i like sports and wear levi jeans and don't own cher cds facade. BEING GAY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR TASTE IN ANYTHING; IT MEANS YOU'RE A GUY WHO IS ATTRACTED EMOTIONALLY AND PHYSICALLY TO MEN! you want to be straight then go start making babies. truth of the matter is the biggest turn on for me are guys who are confident enough in who they are not to have to play the "masculine" card.


    So it's ironic that he is confident enough to like sports and wear levi jeans because that's who he is, and you're hating on him for it. Just because he doesn't like Cher doesn't mean he is living under a facade.



    one, that's not the definition of ironic. two, you're not getting what i'm saying. three, see point two again. four, my point is that i think this cry-baby "masculine" attitude is a facade for being uncomfortable around gay men who enjoy being themselves in ways that are different than the OP. it's like straight men who are vehemently against gays often are so because of their own insecurities. to be so bothered by "mainstream" gay culture indicates a deep-seeded insecurity about being yourself. that isn't to say he doesn't like sports and that he really likes cher: i love sports and don't listen to cher. the difference is i don't hate on guys who are different than i am and start threads to question if i am straight on a gay website.
  • vj2004t

    Posts: 203

    Aug 01, 2010 5:06 PM GMT
    Masculinity has nothing to do with if you are gay or not. I am masculine, stright acting, go to a ball game, lift weight at a gym, stright in every gay but gay. Hell most of my stright friends dont even know i am gay. You cant always judge every book by it cover. Just be comfortable in your own skin what ever that is.
    Val
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    Aug 01, 2010 5:16 PM GMT
    i think your makeing a big deal out of nothing. and that ur trying to make a problem where there isnt one. goto a club. get a drink. shake ur gay-ass to gaga. and then go home, with or without some guy u pick up.
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    Aug 01, 2010 5:30 PM GMT
    Voice22 saidi think your makeing a big deal out of nothing. and that ur trying to make a problem where there isnt one. goto a club. get a drink. shake ur gay-ass to gaga. and then go home, with or without some guy u pick up.


    .. or with a girl, just to reaffirm how straight-acting you really are.
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    Aug 01, 2010 6:03 PM GMT
    It's a personal question that no one can answer other than you. Why don't you just date women for 6-12 months and determine it then? Or you could date both and determine it along the way? If you have a competitive spirit, you probably want to "one-up" the straight guy on everything. And perhaps, you feel that if you have a guy by your side instead of a girl, you're losing out on the large scoreboard in life. But is that true? Does it matter to win in that socially accepted scoreboard if it means that you forgo personal happiness?

    But then again, there is nothing to say that you could not equally be happy with a woman by your side if that is the person you seek and that can elicit your deepest emotions from within.
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    Aug 01, 2010 6:20 PM GMT
    say 'dude' again.... pretty please.
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    Aug 01, 2010 6:30 PM GMT
    dude
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    Aug 01, 2010 6:31 PM GMT
    Wow, I cannot believe how much hostility and anger there is on a website forum that is supposed to have us be here for eachother.


    It almost makes me sick. If someone has an insecurity, they have an insecurity. Lets jump all over them for it! Maybe it was hard enough to come forward with these insecurities, wanting and need help...and having no where else to take it. and sadly get made fun of even more for it. If we can be honest with ourselves there is just as much prejudice and insecurity coming from the "fem" side against gay men who are masculine, as with gay men toward the "fem" ish types.
    Sadly, this had to infiltrate this thread and ruin it.

    to the posters who have nothing better to do than hate
    Have a great fucking day.

    To the posters who actually cared enough to take it seriously
    I thank you.
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    Aug 01, 2010 6:46 PM GMT
    "Ah, you mean he was a straight, masculine acting guy and the rest were not?"

    Yeah. That's pretty much it.

    And it IS a problem for a more masculine gay man to go to places in the gay community and to practically feel invisible. Most, over 95% percent of the men in there were obviously outwardly flamboyant, prancing around (literally prancing) and having the extreme feminine appearance.

    Its not a matter of hating or being prejudice. its a matter of not seeing yourself reflected in the mirror of the gay community. You begin to feel invisible. And then you start questioning yourself thinking there must be something wrong.
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    Aug 01, 2010 8:12 PM GMT
    The gay community is far from singular in its composition. Your thought that it was represented accurately by the inside of a gay bar is pure immaturity.
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    Aug 01, 2010 8:53 PM GMT
    I actually can relate to alot of these issues, as i'm sure alot of other users on this forum can. The only difference is that I am very secure in knowing that I find men way more SEXUALLY attractive than women.

    Any similarities in interest that you have with other masculine guys should not dictate whether you find men or women sexually attractive.

    When I am around more flamboyant gay's or even my female friends(who know i'm out), I tend to be more expressive & talkative and generally lighthearted. But when I am around my masculine gay friends or straight friends or people who are not aware of my orientation, I tend to be more stoic and quiet. This is just the way I am and I don't necessarily feel there is nothing wrong with that.

    And I can definitely relate to being invisible, rather, it feels that my more flamboyant friends are the ones that pick up all the guys or get hit on more often. I've never had a guy approach me. Ever.
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    Aug 01, 2010 10:01 PM GMT
    Celticmusl saidI can relate to a great deal of these issues.


    3. Other than liking sex with other guys, I am very straight in many respects. Whether that is good or bad, I don't know. I'm so straightish that more and more I've been considering marrying a woman and having children in a pretty much sexless marriage. Considering I RARELY have sex anyway when I'm single, what's the difference really.

    I'm looking for a life partner and although it would be great if that person was another gay guy, it's as if many gays don't even understand the concept of platonically dating, fidelity, monogamy, marriage as a lifelong endeavor, etc.

    Anyway, it's good that the OP is observing these things at a younger age.



    Ditto. I've always thought the same.