Opinion piece on Foxnews.com on gay marriage

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    Aug 11, 2010 10:03 PM GMT

    My Fellow Conservatives, Think Carefully About Your Opposition to Gay Marriage
    By Margaret Hoover
    Published August 10, 2010 | FoxNews.com

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/08/09/margaret-hoover-prop-gay-rights-marriage-conservatives-civil-rights/

    Last paragraph:

    The potential consequence that conservatives land on the wrong side of civil rights history again is the alienation of an entire generation of voters. With polling definitively indicating that Americans under age 30 overwhelmingly favor gay rights, with a majority supporting gay marriage according to the Pew Millennial Attitudes report published in February this year, there are multiple reasons for conservatives to think carefully before digging in their heels against gay marriage.

    Margaret Hoover is a writer, conservative commentator and Fox News contributor.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14354

    Aug 11, 2010 10:23 PM GMT
    This is an overdue breath of fresh air coming from a conservative commentator on FoxNews. Hopefully her common sense position here will make many conservatives stop and think what their position really is on gay marriage rather than being sycophants to the loudmouthed, ignorant homophobes. In other words, conservatives start thinking for themselves and coming to a hopefully rational decision on their own without all the right wing, homophobic propaganda.
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    Aug 11, 2010 10:32 PM GMT
    Two points: 1) Maybe there is a significant percent of Conservatives with this view, and 2) Maybe there are multiple viewpoints presented on Fox, which may not be so completely biased, as is thought by many RJ members.
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    Aug 11, 2010 10:33 PM GMT
    Conservatives had better start getting with the program regarding gay marriage, or they are going to find themselves consigned to the dustbin of history. They may be able to forestall it for a few more years, maybe even long enough to deny it to me (and my partner already accepts he will die without ever seeing it). That would devastate me if he goes first without our ever marrying, and I know he feels the same way. But we are getting older, and can't forestall the inevitable.

    Will you younger guys fight for us too, and perhaps for yourselves? We're doing the best we can ourselves, but we need more help. And time is running out. He's 76, and I'm 61. It's gotta happen soon, or for us, it will never happen. icon_sad.gif
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    Aug 11, 2010 11:14 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    Wilton saidConservatives had better start getting with the program regarding gay marriage, or they are going to find themselves consigned to the dustbin of history. They may be able to forestall it for a few more years, maybe even long enough to deny it to me (and my partner already accepts he will die without ever seeing it). That would devastate me if he goes first without our ever marrying, and I know he feels the same way. But we are getting older, and can't forestall the inevitable.

    Will you younger guys fight for us too, and perhaps for yourselves? We're doing the best we can ourselves, but we need more help. And time is running out. He's 76, and I'm 61. It's gotta happen soon, or for us, it will never happen. icon_sad.gif

    I think a lot of us will fight for you on this, but you would make it easier for us if you were not so hostile to our differences on other political issues.

    You're 59, so hardly a younger guy compared to my 61. Second, what have other political issues got to do with gay marriage? Either you support it or you don't.

    Stop making excuses, and declare yourself for gay marriage or not. So where do you stand?
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    Aug 11, 2010 11:21 PM GMT
    I have many years to go. Not making excuses - was just suggesting a friendlier place here based on the notion that there are common goals, but never mind. Whatever. I am in favor of gay marriage. Thought that would be the case for almost everyone here.
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    Aug 11, 2010 11:53 PM GMT
    Many social conservatives need to realize that while it's fine if they want to personally dislike gay people they have no right to deny them equal liberties that they enjoy. That's what it all comes down to, not whether or not we are embraced.
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    Aug 12, 2010 12:00 AM GMT
    What's so disheartening about her position is that she wants to do the right thing because she doesn't want to land on the wrong side of history or lose voters, not because it's the right thing to do.

    Which, BTW, is the problem with all of conservative thought, namely, not seeing what's progress needs to be made despite what deeply entrenched beliefs one has. If everybody were conservative, we would still have James I's Divine Right, Papal Infalliability, Sharia, people burned at the stake for Catharism or crucified for the original heresy, Christianity.

    Wait a minute, we STILL have all of them! icon_biggrin.gif
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    Aug 12, 2010 12:13 AM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidWhat's so disheartening about her position is that she wants to do the right thing because she doesn't want to land on the wrong side of history or lose voters, not because it's the right thing to do.

    Which, BTW, is the problem with all of conservative thought, namely, not seeing what's progress needs to be made despite what deeply entrenched beliefs one has. If everybody were conservative, we would still have James I's Divine Right, Papal Infalliability, Sharia, people burned at the stake for Catharism or crucified for the original heresy, Christianity.

    Wait a minute, we STILL have all of them! icon_biggrin.gif


    What are you talking about? Political conservatism has nothing to do with religious or social conservatism. While it may seem to hold elements of religious/social conservatism because of the demographic presence of it among voters, it is not the same thing at all.

    In many european countries the "liberal" party is the equivalent of our conservatives.
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    Aug 12, 2010 12:23 AM GMT
    I'm not distinguishing between different types of conservatism, all I said was conservative thought (or thinking patterns would be a better phrase) was characterized by inability to change. Toryism originally endorsed Divine Right, until they were forced by the Glorious Revolution to refomulate their tenets.

    Wikipedia on psychology of conservatismIn 1973, British psychologist Glenn Wilson published an influential book providing evidence that a general factor underlying conservative beliefs is "fear of uncertainty".[86] A meta-analysis of research literature by Jost, Glaser, Kruglanski, and Sulloway in 2003 found that many factors, such as intolerance of ambiguity and need for cognitive closure, contribute to the degree of one's political conservatism.[85] A study by Kathleen Maclay stated these traits "might be associated with such generally valued characteristics as personal commitment and unwavering loyalty." The research also suggested that both liberals and conservatives are resistant to change; liberals simply have a higher tolerance.


    Classical liberalism (which you seem to hold dear) is clearly not social liberalism, I know. What smart people really should be morphing into are social progressives :

    WikipediaSocial progressivism is the view that social norms and moral values are not fixed throughout history and should be revised as new scientific knowledge (particularly about human nature) becomes available. The term is most commonly associated with an international political movement on basis of this view. Particularly in developed countries, social progressives are secularists, and believe that science and secular philosophy have discredited most traditional beliefs to the point where they no longer hold any inherent value. Thus, all current interpersonal social constructs, such as marriage, the family, monogamy and gender roles and gender identity, must be legally challenged whenever such a change is deemed to be for the greater good of society or is desired by those who wish to engage a social arrangement not currently sanctioned by law. They are generally averse to inequality and seek to institute egalitarian norms. They are opposed by social conservatives on grounds of positive vs negative liberties.
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Aug 12, 2010 12:24 AM GMT
    It was a nice effort, but came across as weak.

    I would like to have read her "multiple reasons." She only addresses one, and that is the alienation of a generation of voters. That is something a politician ought to be attentive to, but how does it strike the common person?
  • solak

    Posts: 493

    Aug 12, 2010 12:29 AM GMT
    Wilton said
    Stop making excuses, and declare yourself for gay marriage or not. So where do you stand?


    shouldn't you be asking this of our Administration? you know, the people whom your taxes pay (including for their pensions for years to come, even after their terms)?

    http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2010/08/prop-8-or-none-a-fast-shift-on-marriage.html

    "But the results of the latest CNN poll provide further evidence that opponents of marriage equality -- including President Obama -- will emerge on the wrong side of history sooner than they think."

    people will disagree and agree, understood..

    ...but the first step is to actually have an opinion on it, instead of providing mixed messages to the Public for, errr, our votes and taxes which provide their salary in the interim.
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    Aug 12, 2010 12:51 AM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidWhat's so disheartening about her position is that she wants to do the right thing because she doesn't want to land on the wrong side of history or lose voters, not because it's the right thing to do.

    I think you are making assumptions about her personal position that we don't have a basis to make. She is addressing folks who may personally oppose gay marriage, and whose views will not change based upon a opinion piece. She is telling them to put their views aside and not damage the Conservative causes because on their obstinacy. But in quoting from the participants in the legal case, she does make strong points in favor of allowing gay marriage. At least that's my take on it.
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    Aug 12, 2010 2:23 AM GMT
    This is an important wake-up moment for conservatives. Change in the law does not change peoples' bias or bigotry. An example:

    My grandparents, whom I loved very much, died racists. They resented the civil rights movement and abhored interracial relationships. When I was in high school, my dad was concerned about my friendship with an African-American classmate (this was back when he still thought I liked girls:-) and told me that my grandparents would disown me if we were dating. I was shocked, because I was never exposed to those attitudes and biases. The civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s called out a whole generation on their bullshit. My parents' generation didn't tolerate it and broke the chain.

    This modern civil rights movement is doing the same thing, and eventually the existing power structure will die off. The sooner the dinosaurs recognize their inevitable extinction, the better. Those who want to stay relavent will have to adjust. Maggie Gallagher et. al. are fleecing their shrinking conservative base for huge paydays, performing their role of masturbating the consciences of those whose minds will never be changed anyway. After the dust settles, she'll probably take her money and open a nice bed and breakfast in Provincetown.
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Aug 12, 2010 3:07 AM GMT
    socalfitness saidTwo points: 1) Maybe there is a significant percent of Conservatives with this view, and


    ***** No, there is not a significant percent(age) of Conservatives with this view. If there were, we would already have had all of our equal rights many decades ago.

    2) Maybe there are multiple viewpoints presented on Fox, which may not be so completely biased, as is thought by many RJ members.
    .

    ***** ONE example does not indicate an extremely well hidden trend.
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    Aug 12, 2010 5:07 AM GMT
    socalfitness saidTwo points: 1) Maybe there is a significant percent of Conservatives with this view, and 2) Maybe there are multiple viewpoints presented on Fox, which may not be so completely biased, as is thought by many RJ members.




    NO, there is not a significant number of Repubs who support gay rights.

    And, while her OPINION piece was posted on Fox, it is still a piece designed to help Republicans win elections.
    It's not a non-partisan, or pro-Democratic piece.
    So, it fits well within the Fox agenda of spinning on behalf of the Republican party and trying to help elect Republicans
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    Aug 12, 2010 5:14 AM GMT
    socalfitness said
    My Fellow Conservatives, Think Carefully About Your Opposition to Gay Marriage
    By Margaret Hoover
    Published August 10, 2010 | FoxNews.com

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/08/09/margaret-hoover-prop-gay-rights-marriage-conservatives-civil-rights/

    Last paragraph:

    The potential consequence that conservatives land on the wrong side of civil rights history again is the alienation of an entire generation of voters. With polling definitively indicating that Americans under age 30 overwhelmingly favor gay rights, with a majority supporting gay marriage according to the Pew Millennial Attitudes report published in February this year, there are multiple reasons for conservatives to think carefully before digging in their heels against gay marriage.

    Margaret Hoover is a writer, conservative commentator and Fox News contributor.




    It's too late for the Repubs to undo the damage they've done to themselves, and to their reputation with black gay and now - latino voters.

    The Repubs have chosen to be the party for white people again and again, right up to the immigration ugliness we've seen from the Republican party over the past 5 year.

    Republicans just can't seem to think or plan ahead and understand what the consequences of their actions will be tomorrow.

    Which also explains why for the last three decades - the Republican party's position on deficits was "deficits don't matter".



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    Aug 12, 2010 5:32 AM GMT
    socalfitness said
    I think a lot of us will fight for you on this, but you would make it easier for us if you were not so hostile to our differences on other political issues.


    it's a convenient gloss to say "differences"; the issue is your willful and self-serving abandonment of facts. It's not hostility to point that out. It's simply telling the truth.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Aug 12, 2010 10:15 AM GMT
    socalfitness saidTwo points: 1) Maybe there is a significant percent of Conservatives with this view, and 2) Maybe there are multiple viewpoints presented on Fox, which may not be so completely biased, as is thought by many RJ members.


    Because One conservative commentator comes out (Rather Late in the game wouldn't you say?)
    It would have been braver of her if she'd had come out with this before the ruling wouldn't you think?
    .... you're proclaiming that FOX News is a bastion of free thought?
    I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you
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    Aug 12, 2010 11:22 AM GMT
    GQjock said
    socalfitness saidTwo points: 1) Maybe there is a significant percent of Conservatives with this view, and 2) Maybe there are multiple viewpoints presented on Fox, which may not be so completely biased, as is thought by many RJ members.


    Because One conservative commentator comes out (Rather Late in the game wouldn't you say?)
    It would have been braver of her if she'd had come out with this before the ruling wouldn't you think?
    .... you're proclaiming that FOX News is a bastion of free thought?
    I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you


    Like how McCain's wife and daughter came out for gay rights AFTER the election?
  • darkeyedresol...

    Posts: 171

    Aug 12, 2010 11:42 AM GMT
    I like Margaret Hoover, she's smart and funny, not to mention pretty...but Fox News is pretty good at getting pretty, conservative ladies on there.
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    Aug 12, 2010 11:57 AM GMT
    socalfitness saidTwo points: 1) Maybe there is a significant percent of Conservatives with this view, and 2) Maybe there are multiple viewpoints presented on Fox, which may not be so completely biased, as is thought by many RJ members.





    I watch The O'Rielly Factor when I can (don't shoot me) and he has people representing the other side all the time, the author of the piece is on at least once a week. She always shoots down Bill's slippery slope argument against gay marriage. I otherwise don't really watch Fox so I can only say for Billy. And wright or wrong he is always entertaining. When I read all the Fox hate on here I wonder if they have ever actually watched him.

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    Aug 12, 2010 12:32 PM GMT
    gregography said
    socalfitness said
    I think a lot of us will fight for you on this, but you would make it easier for us if you were not so hostile to our differences on other political issues.


    it's a convenient gloss to say "differences"; the issue is your willful and self-serving abandonment of facts. It's not hostility to point that out. It's simply telling the truth.

    I was going to respond to one of your posts a while back. It was in an area that I am quite familiar with. I took a look at your links and found your "facts" generally were inaccurate or misleading, and/or taken out of context, including omission of other relevant facts that would lead to a materially different conclusion. I also found faulty deductive logic.

    So while starting to gather this, I stopped and asked myself, why waste my time? 1) You would disagree, anyway, 2) I don't like your "debating" style, name calling others with whom you disagree. 3) I could care less about trying to change your mind. 4) I'm only interested in having debates with certain people, who may differ with me significantly, but have better manners and in my view are intellectually open to other viewpoints. You are not in that category, and I don't intend to deal with you. Nor do I intend to elaborate on the above and be drawn into any sort of debate with you. Take it or leave it; I don't care at all.
  • rioriz

    Posts: 1056

    Aug 12, 2010 12:55 PM GMT
    I think people far right Conservatives and far left Liberals are too clouded in their own ideals to ever see another persons viewpoint. That is a trend on this site and around the country.

    Has anyone ever looked at the demographics of who voted against gay marriage in CA? SURPRISE! Overwhelmingly it was voted against by African Americans! Wait aren't most AA liberal thnking? As pointed out earlier I dont believe Barack is necessarily for marriage but is for equal rights. There is a fine line there. If he truly follows his Muslim faith then the religion, like Catholicism, has taken a stand against gay marriage.

    People need to stop making it a Conservative/Liberal battle because there are like minded thinkers on both sides.

    I see this article as a push for a wake up call. Even if Repubs change their thinking because they don't wanna be on the wrong side of history, it can eventually mold their mindset into one that is more accepting.
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    Aug 12, 2010 1:11 PM GMT
    rioriz saidI think people far right Conservatives and far left Liberals are too clouded in their own ideals to ever see another persons viewpoint. That is a trend on this site and around the country.

    Has anyone ever looked at the demographics of who voted against gay marriage in CA? SURPRISE! Overwhelmingly it was voted against by African Americans! Wait aren't most AA liberal thnking? As pointed out earlier I dont believe Barack is necessarily for marriage but is for equal rights. There is a fine line there. If he truly follows his Muslim faith then the religion, like Catholicism, has taken a stand against gay marriage.

    People need to stop making it a Conservative/Liberal battle because there are like minded thinkers on both sides.

    I see this article as a push for a wake up call. Even if Repubs change their thinking because they don't wanna be on the wrong side of history, it can eventually mold their mindset into one that is more accepting.

    Very well said. An analogy might be found in the old public accommodations laws, disallowing discrimination in private establishments open to the public. After people were forced to stop the discrimination, minds and attitudes gradually changed.