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Are you one of the many Americans who is growing stupider with every moment that passes?
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 3:17 AM GMT Quote Both the NY Times and Salon.com have recently run reviews of Susan Jacoby's new book, "The Age of American Unreason." Jacoby maintains that religious fundamentalism and the odd belief that opinion is as "true" as actual fact have inaugurated a new epoch of American stupidity. The NY Times article (http://tinyurl.com/3y7ckg) opens with this anecdote: "A popular video on YouTube shows Kellie Pickler, the adorable platinum blonde from “American Idol,” appearing on the Fox game show “Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?” during celebrity week. Selected from a third-grade geography curriculum, the $25,000 question asked: “Budapest is the capital of what European country?” "Ms. Pickler threw up both hands and looked at the large blackboard perplexed. “I thought Europe was a country,” she said. Playing it safe, she chose to copy the answer offered by one of the genuine fifth graders: Hungary. “Hungry?” she said, eyes widening in disbelief. “That’s a country? I’ve heard of Turkey. But Hungry? I’ve never heard of it.” The Salon piece (http://tinyurl.com/ywxg82) says this: "The chief manifestations of this newly virulent irrationality are the rise of fundamentalist religion and the flourishing of junk science and other forms of what Jacoby calls "junk thought." The mentally enfeebled American public can now be easily manipulated by flimsy symbolism, whether it's George W. Bush's bumbling, accented speaking style (labeling him as a "regular guy" despite his highly privileged background) or the successful campaign by right-wing ideologues to smear liberals as snooty "elites." Unable to grasp even the basic principles of statistics or the scientific method, Americans gullibly buy into a cornucopia of bogus notions, from recovered memory syndrome to intelligent design to the anti-vaccination movement." Have you noticed the epidemic of stupidity?

B787 Posts: 242	Feb 19, 2008 3:23 AM GMT Quote abso-freakin-lutely that said, it is why this country is in the state it is in -- starting w/ stupidity and ignorance from the top
wakerider Posts: 13	Feb 19, 2008 3:40 AM GMT Quote B787 said abso-freakin-lutely that said, it is why this country is in the state it is in -- starting w/ stupidity and ignorance from the top Amen.. I only have two words.. George Bush
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 3:56 AM GMT Quote It was the movie Forrest Gump that made me realize that stupidity was not merely on the rise but was actually being transformed into an admirable measure of normality.
MunchingZombi... Posts: 2108	Feb 19, 2008 3:59 AM GMT Quote No, I don't buy that America is more stupid now than it has been. People demand from an all too willing media to give them the sort of shows that run on MTV2 or quiz shows with questions taken from a third-grade geography text. There isn't more stupidity it is just more visible. To make it sound grand, it is the democratization of stupidity.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 4:04 AM GMT Quote Didn't you mean more stupider
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 4:16 AM GMT Quote I think that there's just a larger number of stupid people because of our huge population growth over the years. It's not so much that we've grown more insipid than ever - overall. It's that we've got more airheads, bimbos, and yes-men than we've ever had before. Whom else would be responsible for Bush being in office, and for Britney being so relevant in the news. It doesn't help that the youtube generation is hopeless about it's future and just sitting with it's hands under it's ass. If anyone going to prove this current up and coming generation a great one, it should start with it's media, and it's most simplist spokesperson. Damn Pickler and her bubblegum airhead persona. She should only be on television during drug awareness campaign, and not on as an example of what being easy and stupid can get you. Silly bitch.
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 4:19 AM GMT Quote MunchingZombie saidNo, I don't buy that America is more stupid now than it has been. People demand from an all too willing media to give them the sort of shows that run on MTV2 or quiz shows with questions taken from a third-grade geography text. There isn't more stupidity it is just more visible. To make it sound grand, it is the democratization of stupidity. I'm not so sure. I have a bunch of friends on college faculties and they all complain constantly about the ever worsening writing skills they see in freshman classes -- to say nothing of a broad lack of critical thinking. Also, my understanding is that American public school students are falling farther behind their European peers in several areas.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 4:22 AM GMT Quote Not stupider, but much lazier. Being informed takes mental work. Memory is to a large extent something that can be trained, but students are taught to pride themselves on learning only what's necessary to pass the test, and on the speed at which they subsequently forget the facts they've stuffed themselves with. I was a teacher for three years, I saw this firsthand. When a student asked me "will this be on the test?", my answer was invariably, "yes." What I really meant was, "learn something, you lazy fuck."
mickeytopogig... Posts: 1022	Feb 19, 2008 4:35 AM GMT Quote jprichva saidWhat I really meant was, "learn something, you lazy fuck." Or think ahead... Anticipate... Project what will happen... What are the possible outcomes of this scenario... I've had it with bright people who've parroted the text, but can't apply the metaphor.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 4:38 AM GMT Quote American Idol, Perez Hilton, Fergie, Britney, Paris, FOX News, Dubya and many others are all causes and/or symptoms of the continuing dumbification of America.
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 4:51 AM GMT Quote jprichva saidNot stupider, but much lazier. Being informed takes mental work. Memory is to a large extent something that can be trained, but students are taught to pride themselves on learning only what's necessary to pass the test, and on the speed at which they subsequently forget the facts they've stuffed themselves with. I was a teacher for three years, I saw this firsthand. When a student asked me "will this be on the test?", my answer was invariably, "yes." What I really meant was, "learn something, you lazy fuck." Out of curiosity, how does your observation of increased laziness preclude the possibility of increased stupidity?
Damarco Posts: 300	Feb 19, 2008 4:57 AM GMT Quote I don't know if it's that Americans are more stupid or that the more stupid Americans are so proudly owning it! I am reminded of a few things: I was at a job a few years ago in which the subject of Tennessee came up and mention of the state capital. I said, of course, that it was Nashville. A room of college educated people argued with me about this. They countered that with the country music industry there it was unlikely that capital would also be there, and that different people thought it was Memphis, Knoxville or Chattanooga. The climax came when one woman said, "Dave, we all agree that it isn't Nashville, so clearly it isn't!" An Atlas later they were seeking to disband the meeting quickly! That someone thinks a fact can be "outvoted!" Sheesh! Second, I remember a David Letterman joke: The Average Japanese Kid--made the highest score on his math test. The Average American Kid--beat up the kid who made the highest score on his math test. Again, it seems that people want a badge for being "down to earth" or "relatable" because they strive to know more about the world. They see people who are smart and well-read as putting on airs or pretending to be what they are not. In the 2000 election a poll revealed that 90% (!!) of the people thought Gore was smarter, but 80% thought Bush was "more Presidential." I've had acquaintances dismiss Bush's inability to communicate by saying "just because he doesn't know the best grammar or pronunciation doesn't mean he's stupid." To which I countered, "If you see an overweight guy you know that he isn't running two miles a day; if you hear a guy who can't pronounce nuclear then you know he isn't the brightest bulb on the tree."
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 5:17 AM GMT Quote Let us not forget this recent example of radiant intellect.
mindgarden Posts: 1402	Feb 19, 2008 5:20 AM GMT Quote Is the total amount of stupidity increasing, or do we just have more efficient means for spreading stupidity around? It could be that through use of tabloids, televisions broadcasts, and the internet, the background stupidity levels are homogenized sufficiently to choke out the always-rare islands of intelligence that once existed. Scoring a set of college essays is indeed a frightening task. However, remember that universities were more elitist in the past. There used to be significant matriculation requirements. Now, anybody who can fill out a student loan application (or have one filled out for them) can get in. But on the other hand, I recently browsed through a bundle of my great-grandmother's correspondence. None of those people had more than a high school education, and sometimes less, but they could all write coherent, grammatically correct letters. Most college graduates today cannot. Hmmm. (Aside: It's somewhat amusing that many right-wing stupidities are bemoaned here, but nobody mentions any left-wing stupidities. It's not as if there are any fewer of them.) In any case, Jasper Fforde examines the issue in depth in his recent novel, "Thursday Next: First Among Sequels." Due to some inexplicably rational acts of Parliament, the British Stupidity Surplus is soaring. Only an act of supreme idiocy can relieve the imbalance. There is much debate about the best way to go about this. I highly recommend reviewing this document, but it probably won't make a lot of sense unless you first read the previous three books in the series. Oh... silly me. "Read."
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 5:21 AM GMT Quote Jacoby's book is equally hard on the left wing, Mindgarden.
ActiveAndFit Posts: 2819	Feb 19, 2008 5:25 AM GMT Quote What we need is more strategury in our education system and a stronger department of defense according to some
art_smass Posts: 822	Feb 19, 2008 5:29 AM GMT Quote I'm Canadian -- phew!
antelope Posts: 278	Feb 19, 2008 5:31 AM GMT Quote My parents and their siblings, cousins, extended families and friends all read and owned books, had at least a basic knowledge of classical music, sometimes listened to Toscanini conduct the NBC Symphony on prime-time radio, and aspired to learn. They were lower-middle to middle class. Granting that this is a different world, American popular culture has got to be at one of its lowest levels. What do we do about this?
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 5:35 AM GMT Quote Maybe part of the problem here is my use of the word "stupidity" when what is actually being described is a kind of willful abandonment of rationality. I'm not talking about "stupid" in the sense of mental retardation. As Jacoby points out and as others are, I think, saying, part of the problem is the existence of top-down stupidity now (like George Bush). A majority of Americans now believe creationism should be taught in the public schools. A rational school board would refuse, but one that believes religious opinion is as valid as evidence-based theory won't object. In that this makes the, um, slack-jawed face of stupidity more evident, I suppose you could argue that it's mainly an increase in visibility. But if you constantly reiterate the notion that opinion and fact are equal in value, don't you cultivate more stupidity?
mindgarden Posts: 1402	Feb 19, 2008 5:50 AM GMT Quote For further information, review Mike Judge's documentary movie, "Idiocracy." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/ Note that while this movie wasn't exactly "suppressed," Fox released it in only a couple of cities, and didn't even print up posters. I highly recommend it. It will make you feel better.
wrerick Posts: 872	Feb 19, 2008 5:51 AM GMT Quote I don't know that humans are any more or less irrational than they used to be, but certainly their irrationality is more on display when more stuff can be verified, analyzed and proved -- but I guess all that shows is that humans are by nature probably irrational and not always necessarily interested in knowing what is rational. Probably also one the flip side of tolerance there is also certain tendancy to relativism -- that everyone's belief or opinion is as good as everyone elses. What does amuse me is that the middle class, and particularly upper middle class in this country is obsessed, more than ever before, with getting their children into the best schools, and getting that best grades possible -- and are willing to spend almost any amount on that. Also many of the kids seem to be required to do much more than when I was in school -- between classes and the extra-curricular activities that seem required these days. At the same time, it seems like what they value is success -- what school you get into and what job you get -- and not actually learning for the sake of learning, or god forbid, appearing intelligent, as that would be downright uncool.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 6:01 AM GMT Quote All American's are not stupid just the one's that run the Country! Next time vote for Micky Mouse he may do better?
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 6:13 AM GMT Quote 280 million dollars aid to Tanzania if that's not stupid what is when you are in a Recession and the monies will never get to the poor anyway?
MunchingZombi... Posts: 2108	Feb 19, 2008 6:17 AM GMT Quote Neil Postman is a fantastic author. He wrote books like Amusing ourselves to Death or Technopoly: The Surrender of Culture to Technology that talk about this issue. But he had been writing from the 70's. I guess there has always been plenty to bemoan with regard to America's national intelligence.
MikeOnMain Posts: 499	Feb 19, 2008 6:19 AM GMT Quote I don't think there are more stupid people now than before, but I think of stupidity as cognitive impairment. People seem to be more ignorant than they used to be, but what I think we're really seeing is a change in the respectability of ignorance. For example, it drives me crazy that some of my students can't spell, can't get a subject and a verb to agree, etc., but what worries me much more is the attitude that those "details" don't matter. That attitude isn't held only by the students, either. I've argued with folks in the writing center who tell me I should only assess the content of students' papers, and that the grammar and spelling will somehow straighten themselves out as the students sort out their thinking. I believe it works both ways. Mastering a language is one way in which you master your thoughts. (Besides, who thinks grammar and coherence are not part of the content of an essay?) While universities and colleges still use high-minded language to describe their aims and goals, the vast majority of their students are looking for job training, and universities are accommodating those expectations more and more. Students are treated like consumers, and that drives curricular decisions. Subjects aren't valued for their own sake, but for their practicality. I also wonder whether the perceived decline in intellectual accomplishment is a consequence of the shift away from print as an important source of information in our culture. Neal Postman has written several gloomy books on the subject; his Amusing Ourselves to Death is the best known I think. When I first read it I thought he overstated the case, but as time goes by I'm beginning to think he might have been more accurate than I had thought. Anti-intellectualism has a long history in the US, one that I imagine is rooted in our Puritan past. As Ecclesiastes says "For in much wisdom is much indignation, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow also." And then there's Flaubert, who once said that there are three pre-requisites to happiness: good health, selfishness, and stupidity. But the most important is stupidity; if that is lacking, all is lost. Now I'm rambling...
sexysamer Posts: 1785	Feb 19, 2008 6:19 AM GMT Quote Not all Americans are stupid. Look at this smart two years old American girl... (I think the guy talking in the video sound sexy lol)
MikeOnMain Posts: 499	Feb 19, 2008 6:24 AM GMT Quote She beats the poor goofball in this FedEx commercial
Salubrious Posts: 389	Feb 19, 2008 6:27 AM GMT Quote I really want to move to Europe... I can't stand us sometimes.
vince_in_chic... Posts: 95	Feb 19, 2008 6:44 AM GMT Quote obscenewishreligious fundamentalism and the odd belief that opinion is as "true" as actual fact have inaugurated a new epoch of American stupidity What's up with America-bashing Americans? This is certainly not a problem that is exclusive to the U.S. How many wars have been fought in the name of religion? At least our religious fundamentalists haven't attempted the extermination of other religious groups (as far as I know!). Same goes for those that revel over the expanding waistlines of Americans. It's true that the American population is getting heavier, but Australia and the U.K., among other countries, are facing the same obesity challenges. Our country has a lot to be proud of, I think we're better off expressing disdain toward the stupidity of people in general.
dean_pdx Posts: 143	Feb 19, 2008 6:46 AM GMT Quote Once upon a time, American society was literate. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Instead of reading, or engaging each other in intelligent discourse, people allow themselves to be distracted by the crap fed to them by the media. (Why do people give a flying fuck what Paris Hilton and her nasty friends are doing?) Yesterday, I started my grocery shopping but gave up before putting anything in the cart. I was just too disgusted. That store was full of stupid people waddling through the isles with blank looks on their faces. I observed a pot-bellied woman with house slippers talking incoherently to her filthy kids while leafing through the goddamn National Enquirer. Normally, I would just say to myself, "This is an absolutely fascinating cultural study!" and laugh it off, but yesterday I just couldn't handle it. Even though I really needed groceries, I just walked out of the store. Thanks for posting the pic, RBY71 . . . it sums up exactly how I feel: "I see dumb people... they're everywhere. They walk around like everyone else. They don't even know that they're dumb." ...and, unfortunately, the pieces of shit vote. (Damn... I must of gotten up on the wrong side of the bed today. I'll try harder tomorrow.)
vince_in_chic... Posts: 95	Feb 19, 2008 6:47 AM GMT Quote art_smassI'm Canadian -- phew!
dean_pdx Posts: 143	Feb 19, 2008 6:52 AM GMT Quote Thanks, Vince... I'm in a better mood now!
vince_in_chic... Posts: 95	Feb 19, 2008 6:54 AM GMT Quote Salubrious saidI really want to move to Europe... I can't stand us sometimes. Then please do! This breed of narrow mindedness really infuriates me. I think you'll find a lot of the things you dislike about American culture will prevail in Europe as well. There are plenty of idiots all over the globe.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 7:11 AM GMT Quote Salubrious saidI really want to move to Europe... I can't stand us sometimes. We Welcome you!!!!! How's your IQ? JOKE.....
50sinSDnPS Posts: 8	Feb 19, 2008 7:16 AM GMT Quote MikeOnMain saidI don't think there are more stupid people now than before, but I think of stupidity as cognitive impairment. People seem to be more ignorant than they used to be, but what I think we're really seeing is a change in the respectability of ignorance. I totally agree. In addition, our attention span has been systematically lowered by, er, what were we talking about? The sad fact is most Americans get all the information they think they need from the TV, not realizing that six corporations control the tube. We are in the dark about virtually everything. What is the number? Less than 3% read books?
NickoftheNort... Posts: 828	Feb 19, 2008 7:16 AM GMT Quote Alas, no, I do not count myself as "one of the many Americans who is growing stupider with every moment that passes." Yet, I have seen what you refer to as an "epidemic of stupidity." The stupidity / obstinate irrationality we can witness today in the US and abroad (Norway is falling victim to the Paris Hilton fetishization in the US and will have to be part of the eventual quarantine) is not unique to our time; previous years, decades, and centuries were also fraught with inanity and stupidity (check out the sociological "research" of the late 1800s, such as the utterly unempirical conclusions on matters of rape and crime; it is a source for much vomiting). However, there are components that are new to our time: technological - instant national and global (textual, audio, and visual) communication, 24/7 entertainment-news, relatively cheap and accessible textual publication overstimulatory - 24/7 entertainment-news, corporate competition to garner consumer attention, casual / superficial dissemination of news by media participants excess - disposable incomes, relatively cheap manufacturing and importation / exportation The overstimulatory is particularly significant, as it impinges on our ability to process details; this, in turn, prompts us to look for simplified answers and concepts (such as George Bush being the sole fault of our current, wretched administration). *** As for the development of, what is effectively, attention-deficit-disorder in the broader US, you need merely look to US television and its near-indoctrinal promotion of ADD (I almost see US television as being a canvas of competing advertisements, periodically punctuated with programming). Whenever I go back to the US (from being here in Norway) and start watching the "boob-tube," I find myself suffering from headaches and nausea the first few days due to mental whip-lash.
huskerz4ever Posts: 13	Feb 19, 2008 7:28 AM GMT Quote A little off topic, but I have been amazed over the last few years about the younger people (say thirty and under) who have NEVER voted! To me this is just crazy and socially irresponsible. Then on the otherhand I think maybe it's good that these idiots aren't voting! (Since they have no clue about what is going on...) Don't we have a responsibility to educate ourselves on the issues of the day and cast our vote? So many just don't care about anything other than what's happening that day in their lives. Fat, happy, and stupid!!!
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 9:08 AM GMT Quote Sorry... I cannot live in the US anymore.. people are WAYYYY too ignorant here. Gonna head back to europe soon... I used to like this country a lot but the rise in ignorance is shocking.... as the rest of the world becomes more close-knit with a global economy - America seems to be going the other direction. Is it some sort of "INSECURITY" with Americans that they feel now they are going to lose the status of being A most powerful country? I don't know what it is but in my personal experiences - most Americans are concerned with "superficial" issues rather than "reality".. take the forums here as an example - most topics are not even worth responding to. Gay men in the US are also extremely self-obsessed - rest of the world they are really very different and not so much in love with themselves... sorry - this the reason why so many Gay americans are on anti-depressants and HIV is such a huge problem in the Gay American community. I just hope things change for the better after George Bush is out of office... Obama will be good for this country and I believe he will truly take it into another direction.... HOWEVER if Mccain becomes President then its all over...LOL.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 9:15 AM GMT Quote By the way - I do like Paris Hilton. If you look beyond her slutty MEDIA image - she is an incredibly SMART person... who makes over $30 million a year from her business and by using her family name to generate money.... when in fact she could sit on her ass all her life and live it up like every other rich kid from a big family. Paris Hilton is NOT a Dumb American - she is an extremely smart American who makes a ton of money from selling shit to DUMB AMERICANS and other Dumb people all over the world....LOL.
NickoftheNort... Posts: 828	Feb 19, 2008 9:31 AM GMT Quote With regard to the suggestion of moving out of the United States in response to the feared developing idiotocracy, I disagree. If you see the US as dealing with a serious "epidemic of stupidity," that is all the more reason to stay and try to rectify it. One of the major reasons I want to return to the US is so that I can take part of the movement against this anti-intellectual decadence. It would be foolish to sit abroad, watch this display of "willful irrationality", and then congratulate myself on no longer being a part of the society in peril.
irishkcguy Posts: 293	Feb 19, 2008 9:33 AM GMT Quote This is a very personal subject with me. I was a high school teacher for ten years. I had to get out of it because it was so horrible. I truly believe being a teacher is the worst career field in America that requires a college education. It's possible to overlook some problems with your job when you are being paid well. As a teacher the job sucks AND the pay sucks. There are so many ways our schools are failing it is difficult for me to know where to begin to talk about it. It seemed to me that nobody thought knowledge for the sake of knowledge was a good thing. It is a liability in school for kids to be smart. The smart ones get bullied and abused. History and government are being taught mostly by coaches who really don't give a shit about teaching, they just want to be coaches but have to teach something. Don't misunderstand me, there are many coaches who are also top tier classroom teachers. But not many of them. (I was at a taping of Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader and a football coach/social studies teacher failed to get one question right.)Few schools in America require kids to take 4 years of math and science and then we wonder why we are falling so far behind the rest of the world in math and science. No Child Left Behind is a bipartisan disaster perpetrated by Bush and Ted Kennedy. I heard recently that in California the average college graduate that goes into education teaches for only four years before they go on to something else. That means the teacher shortage we have coming up as the Baby Boomers retire will be staggering (something like 60,000 teachers short of what will be needed in CA in ten years). This means even less qualified people will be teaching. The educational system in this country is probably broken beyond repair. The thing that really bothers me the most about our national dumbing down is people are aware of it and seem to think it's cute or funny. Nobody seems to find it scary. People seem unaware that Homer Simpson is being held up to be made fun of, not to be a role model.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 10:16 AM GMT Quote Salubrious saidI really want to move to Europe... I can't stand us sometimes. I wouldnt we are even more stupid here than you are there, just less obvious about it!!! As for education, well thats what makes people stupid. Our UK system now has a standard system of education for nearly all age groups. Individuality and free thinking is stifled, I cant see how anyone will ever come up with new ideas, thoughts and discoveries.
NickoftheNort... Posts: 828	Feb 19, 2008 10:51 AM GMT Quote Here's an example of how a similar "willful irrationalist" movement in Russia works in conjunction with the current post-Cold War nationalist movement: A Byzantine sermon The drawing of inaccurate historical parallels with Constantinople "WHEN Nikolai Patrushev, head of Russia's federal security service (FSB), spoke to his staff to mark the 90th anniversary of the Soviet secret service last year, he made an odd historic diversion. “Those who study history know that security existed before. Sophia Paleologue married Ivan III, and being a niece of the last Byzantine emperor, paid close attention to questions of security.” Few understood what he was talking about. The mystery was cleared up a few weeks later, when Russia's state television channel aired an hour-long film, “The Destruction of the Empire: a Byzantine Lesson”. It proved so popular that the channel repeated it and added a 45-minute discussion concluding that Russia could exist only as an Orthodox empire. The author and narrator of the film is Father Tikhon Shevkunov, reputedly the confessor of Vladimir Putin. In recent weeks the film has become one of the most talked-about in Moscow." Read more at the Economist
Alexander89 Posts: 681	Feb 19, 2008 11:21 AM GMT Quote vince_in_chicago said[quote][cite]obscenewish[/cite]religious fundamentalism and the odd belief that opinion is as "true" as actual fact have inaugurated a new epoch of American stupidity What's up with America-bashing Americans? This is certainly not a problem that is exclusive to the U.S. How many wars have been fought in the name of religion? At least our religious fundamentalists haven't attempted the extermination of other religious groups (as far as I know!). Our country has a lot to be proud of, I think we're better off expressing disdain toward the stupidity of people in general.[/quote] Ever heard of the burning times?
Alexander89 Posts: 681	Feb 19, 2008 11:23 AM GMT Quote
GQjock Posts: 3714	Feb 19, 2008 11:23 AM GMT Quote What is really scary and the author touches on it is the celebration of this stupidity where it is more than just "OK" to be ignorant The Paris Hilton-ization of America but what's VERY disturbing is that the political proces has taken advantage of this trend and has helped it flourish...because a dumb America is a more pliable America and a more conservative America
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 11:29 AM GMT Quote You create the society in which you live and associate. With the increase in globalization, outsourcing, and off-shoring, definitive population characteristics correlated to geographic location are on a steady decline. This is an intervention if you feel American's are becoming stupider or moving out of the country is going to change anything (in the context of American's becoming stupider). Here are some quotes I wrote down from articles I recently read (may not be verbatim, but you get the gist): "We are no longer saying to our children 'honey finish your dinner there are kid starving in China'. We are saying 'honey finish your homework, there are kids in China starving for your job'. A saying at Microsoft's most productive research team (which happens to be located in China): "In China where you are 1 in a million, there are 1300 just like you."
Sedative Posts: 5407	Feb 19, 2008 12:01 PM GMT Quote MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! WORLD DOMINATION HERE I COME! Hmmm... 1) Start wars between caucasians - check 2) Establish dumb president... twice - check 3) Promote fastfood and obesity - check 4) Send poisonous toys over - foiled... DARN! 5) Lower IQ.... hmmm.... - check! Next item... 6) Donate 10 Billion dollars to Fred Phelps.... snickers evilly
Alexander89 Posts: 681	Feb 19, 2008 12:34 PM GMT Quote Hey sedative could you get me out of here before you destroy my country... or at least spare the gay state?
Alexander89 Posts: 681	Feb 19, 2008 12:36 PM GMT Quote FRED PHELPS scares me
Sedative Posts: 5407	Feb 19, 2008 12:40 PM GMT Quote fo sho. If you give good enough bj's that is. Otherwise... annihilation!
Alexander89 Posts: 681	Feb 19, 2008 12:43 PM GMT Quote Not going to complain about that price for my freedom.
Paradigm_Shif... Posts: 215	Feb 19, 2008 1:10 PM GMT Quote I find it ironic that people keep pointing out how horrible our media is and how stupid its making everyone. Well I am by no means a supporter of CNN when they cover move of Anna Nicole Smith than they do Darfur. BUT, there are still A LOT of really smart, hardworking, and highly educated people in this country. I am a college student surrounded by people who are bettering themselves and working hard. American universities are the envy of the worlds. (THats why you see so many international students studying here), and everyday American companies create breakthroughs and discoveries that benefit people the world over. It seems that me that people are simply looking at whats on TV and assuming EVERYONE is like that. Im sure anyone who has ever watched Jerry Springer, Survivor, or American Idol can understand that there is much more to our country than whats shown on TV...
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 1:15 PM GMT Quote This whole thing is going to be nearly impossible to change, because it's built into the American myth as strongly as the "rugged individualist" fantasy that feeds the libertarian movement. One of the most admired figures in American legendary history is the self-made man who builds an economic empire even though he barely finished fourth grade. "I didn't have no book-larnin'," he says defiantly. "I got mah edjication from the School of Hard Knocks." Rather than seeing this as an anomaly (and how many such were there, really?), we are taught from early on to regard this as the right and proper way to transcend class barriers in this country. This is why Chimpy, the scion of property and wealth going back at least 150 years, had to put on that insufferable preachery cadence and that cornpone accent if he had any hope of being elected. This is why Mike Huckabee garnered even as many votes and delegates as he has. We will NEVER respect learning and education as long as a great many people see it as synonymous with: Yankee, elitist, Communist, faggoty, European, (add your pejorative here).
RunintheCity Posts: 1457	Feb 19, 2008 1:30 PM GMT Quote People, welcome to the fulfillment of the vision of Corporate America. Scratch that - Corporate Earth. (After all, Haliburton is now headquartered in Dubai! Check out also www.theyrule.net ) Where the citizenry no longer thinks, merely consumes in a quest to have under the perception that having equates being. Bush, Paris Hilton, et al are merely manifestations of this, not the cause. The results are a declining society in an economic and cultural downturn much like Rome in the 300ADs and Italy in the 1920s. Education has been destroyed in this country. Several above posters have commented on this, including former teachers. I work at a university and I can also attest that while technology skills have improved, basic reading/writing/comprehension is down the toilet. The conformity of normalcy - a cornerstone of corporate marketing success - has set in big time. Mom and Dad take care of everything. If it's not online it's useless. The idea that you can 'learn' anything from Googling it, despite the utter lack of online verity. Religion plays into this as well, although religion has always been prominent in America. The change has occurred in its collective expression and application onto the larger society. Its use as a mechanism of blatant control, as Marx once warned. Critical thought = liberal = evil = unAmerican = snooty = rich elite, despite most of the rich elite being "Republicans" - although only in a pro-business sense. After all, Dick Cheney, dark lord of corporate interest and supposedly of social conservatism, has and accepts openly his lesbian daughter, her partner and their test tube baby! The 'rules' don't apply to the rich, unless they're 'liberal.' Can it be turned around? Likely not. The fulfillment of the corporate agenda in tandem with the reached goals of the Prospect for a New American Century - research that and try to sleep soundly at night - have taken us to a place from which our nation will not recover. Even Obama, with all his promise and hope, or the fighter that is Hillary Clinton cannot likely change the tide. The decisions they'd have to enact would ENRAGE the duped public. The corporations would not allow it anyway and if it started looking to compromising, the Chinese and other nations would simply call in our debt and conquer us without a soldier one. All that said, I'll still take USA over many other places in the world. We must remain cognizant of the comparative realities even as we remain analytical and critical of our looming faults. It's an important part of being a "free" country - even if 'we' don't 'own' it anymore.
Alexander89 Posts: 681	Feb 19, 2008 1:39 PM GMT Quote Hey Denzel... People all over this country are actually that stupid. Our universities are amazing but where is the american funding going towards...war our public schools are lacking especially in the poorer districts. Personally i think us americans should get a little more selfish and focus on ourselves instead of everybody else for a change. We could cure AIDS in our own country...and then sell the cure to the rest of the world. Feed our own starving and homeless Create our own energy All those guys we have in Iraq could be set around our own borders that way we can be less afraid of terrorists as well as fixing the immigration problem at the same time...Look at that two birds with one stone. Legalize hemp and marijuana and tax it like crazy boosting our economy further. Model our health care system after canada's Model our college system after France's and legalize gay marriage bc i know damn well that despite how small that would definitely have a positive effect on america's economy. Let's stop donating to these fundamentalist christian orginizations and instead donate to something more worth while like Public schools or something... Just some ideas My opinion. I'm sure i could be wrong in some of what i said but at least i put my thoughts out there.
tommysguns200... Posts: 923	Feb 19, 2008 1:41 PM GMT Quote huh? (vince_in_chicago is hot)
ebl333 Posts: 674	Feb 19, 2008 1:48 PM GMT Quote What is not balancing out is reserve and humility. all wise men know when to shut up less they show their lacking. it's the fools that yap nonstop afraid no one will hear them. Hence I don't think americans are more stupid now then before; americans knew when to shut up then, but with overrated "freedom of speech", they spoil themselves and remove all doubt, most significantly, no shame in showing their lack of knowledge. One only need to look at the topics with most response here to know what's going on.
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 1:50 PM GMT Quote Predictably, some would characterize Jacoby's work as anti-American. It's absurd to demand that she extend her analysis to the global community. We ought to be able to criticize our own society without being called anti-American. (It's certainly true that fundamentalism is a worldwide movement.) I've had a lot of friends expatriate over the years. During that time, it became clear to me that the value of expatriation is not so much to join a superior society as to dis-identify yourself from any sense of specific cultural affiliation. But I don't think that lasts forever with most people. I've repeatedly observed many of my ex-patriate friends eventually return to the US for a variety of reasons, often with a new appreciation of their native culture. Also: I try to avoid this kind of observation, since it used to drive me crazy when I was in my 20s, too, but the younger you are, the less the magnitude of this shift toward an equivalence of opinion and fact is going to be noticeable. I conduct several online seminars for high school students in gifted programs each year. I'm always impressed that they seem much SMARTER than I was at that age. On the other hand, they seem under much greater pressure to think of their education in practical terms of preparing them for careers their parents are pushing them toward. Invariably, in each seminar, there are always students who would like to become writers but, at 16, have already been convinced such an ambition is silly. (They also invariably talk about already being marginalized as "elitist.")
COmale Posts: 152	Feb 19, 2008 1:52 PM GMT Quote I take stupid pills daily that I buy from a blond wonman who drives a sportut and goes to focus on the family on Sundays
Gigadu Posts: 1137	Feb 19, 2008 1:57 PM GMT Quote Here's some 'evidence' of where we stand and it's by state which makes it even more entertaining: American Institutes for Research report titled: "Chance Favors the Prepared Mind: Mathematics and Science Indicators for Comparing States and Nations." Try not to cry when you see where Georgia stands OW.
AMT87 Posts: 650	Feb 19, 2008 2:00 PM GMT Quote Everyone always makes fun of Americans and the vast majority of them are up their with the rest of the world but over all I think they just live in a small United states bubble without realising theirs a whole other world out there. There also seems to be an apailing lack of geography which I think the media are responsible for. All of Irish and British news papers have three parts home news, European news, World news. Similar with TV news. Where as in the US most people read news papers for circulation within a single city city and if they have a section of world news it's more like middle east news and the chinese economy. Then theirs the American TV news which is more like entertainmet than news. They just don't seem to think what goes on else where in the world effects them and they shouldn't be bothered Story from the GAP in New York Wow dude that's the coolest credit card I've ever seen, where did you get? (My credit card is see through plastic with silver and oragne swirls, a chip in it and a rounded corner) It often gets reactions) Oh yeah It's not from around here I'm from Dublin Huh? Dublin, you know in Ireland No... It's a country, in Europe Europe?
styrgan Posts: 338	Feb 19, 2008 2:05 PM GMT Quote we also have the reconcile american's perceived lack of intelligence with the flynn effect (that IQ scores rose steadily in the 20th century by about 2 to 5 points per decade). research shows (probably because of advances in information technology) that the highest average growth occured in the last three decdes of the 20th century. there is some research that shows that the curve has peaked though (i think). ultimately, i do think that each generation is getting smarter. but the person who posted the video of the ms. south carolina was telling. clearly smarter does not mean less ignorant. ignorance requires one to actually pick up a book or a magazine and read. or to switch on BBC news. all of which requires a lot of time most americans don't have.
NNJfitandbi Posts: 1234	Feb 19, 2008 2:09 PM GMT Quote I'm not familiar with the research, but the articles cited seem to assume what they sought out to prove.
SockMonkey Posts: 295	Feb 19, 2008 2:09 PM GMT Quote I agree with OW about this, and I definitely don't think it's just an American phenomenon. Raw stupidity has always been with us in abundance. The newer development is a new skepticism about science, and new faith in traditional assumptions and conspiracy theories. You can find it on the right in the adherence to creationism, and you can find it on the left in assertions that America or Israel were behind September 11th. There are definitely parallel trends--including the proliferation of media and entertainment options that allow us to barricade ourselves in individual fortresses that only reinforce our own opinions.
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 2:17 PM GMT Quote NNJfitandbi saidI'm not familiar with the research, but the articles cited seem to assume what they sought out to prove. Huh? The Salon piece is actually critical in many ways of Jacoby's research and conclusions, like her apparent assumption that articles about pop culture in themselves indicate a lowering of intelligence.
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 2:20 PM GMT Quote COmale saidI take stupid pills daily that I buy from a blond wonman who drives a sportut and goes to focus on the family on Sundays Do you take the 10 mg or 25 mg ones?
SurrealLife Posts: 4403	Feb 19, 2008 2:30 PM GMT Quote I agree that the USA has a lot to be proud of, but that does not let you off the hook in dealing with some very real problems. The public education system is not what it should be for such a wealthy nation that prides itself on being the "best". Teachers are poorly paid, standards need to be improved, etc.. I was shocked to find out that the USA barely ranks in the top 10 on scholastic scores around the world (Asain countries, Scandanavian countries and Canada were better). My partner's two nephews moved to Arizona a couple of years ago. They were struggling C students in Canada, in the USA they found it too easy. What does that tell you? The USA also claims to be a nation in which everyone has a chance to succeed. Actually in terms of social mobility there are several countries that are better (I think Finland was #1). What seems to be the most important factor in succeeding in the USA? How wealthy your parents are. There is no lack of stupid people in the world, but a better term would be ignorant. A lot of people with the proper education would be quite smart, but if you don't till the soil you don't get the crops!
COmale Posts: 152	Feb 19, 2008 2:42 PM GMT Quote Obscenewish I had to move to the 25mg. the 10mg just didn't work!
NNJfitandbi Posts: 1234	Feb 19, 2008 2:44 PM GMT Quote In general, Americans have always been ignorant about things that elites find important. One reason is that a much smaller percentage of elites in this country are educated a special schools designed for turning out polyglots who get the references and know the basics about the ancient world. Indeed, most American intellectuals don't have Greek or Latin. Somehow, though, we manage to create wealth, science, art that matters, etc. Despair among Americans over the fact that we have been led by "right thinking" morons for so many years is what it is. The fact is that people are stupid everywhere. And we are fortunate enough to have a constitutional system that means that the idiots can't remain in power for too long. Surely a Clinton, Obama, or McCain administration will do something to change the domestic landscape and help renew our standing in the world. Thank you, Framers, for our Constitution and George Washington for having the good sense to step down. Just looking at the fine American movies that arrived at the multiplex this year compared to the crap that we had to see during the 1990s, I am not sure I buy we're getting stupider. Seriously, has there been a better year for mainstream American movies than 2007? I can't think of one.
ggeo17 Posts: 208	Feb 19, 2008 2:51 PM GMT Quote Salubrious saidI really want to move to Europe... I can't stand us sometimes. Check Bruce Bawer's book first: http://www.amazon.com/While-Europe-Slept-Radical-Destroying/dp/0767920058/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203432491&sr=1-1 There's more than one kind of stupidity.
Damarco Posts: 300	Feb 19, 2008 3:12 PM GMT Quote Our education system is an abomination, there's no doubting that. The teaching profession is undervalued completely. Teaching degrees are comparatively easier to get and the salaries are relatively low. Add to this that our schools have become war zones. Education, like medical care, needs a MAJOR overhaul in this country, and as usual, every election gives lip service to the issue but nothing is ever done. I have to agree with the posters who say that kids who strive harder are mocked. I remember my senior year English class. We turned in our chosen subjects for our term papers. Others turned in baseball, fishing, hunting, wedding planning. I turned in my plan to write about the development of modern musical theatre. My teacher berated me in front of the class! This same teacher mocked me for turning in a full page report when others turned in a paragraph. When the teachers are joining in on the mockery, where do you stand? And I am surprised by not just the protests in this thread about "American bashing," but in every thread when a national problem is discussed. This proves why we have a problem. The idea that to discuss our issues openly is less patriotic ironically perpetuates the problem.
McGay Posts: 3183	Feb 19, 2008 3:16 PM GMT Quote I don't understand the question.
MikeOnMain Posts: 499	Feb 19, 2008 3:23 PM GMT Quote Don't worry McGay, it's not on the test.
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 3:23 PM GMT Quote NNJfitandbi saidIn general, Americans have always been ignorant about things that elites find important. One reason is that a much smaller percentage of elites in this country are educated a special schools designed for turning out polyglots who get the references and know the basics about the ancient world. Indeed, most American intellectuals don't have Greek or Latin. Somehow, though, we manage to create wealth, science, art that matters, etc. Despair among Americans over the fact that we have been led by "right thinking" morons for so many years is what it is. The fact is that people are stupid everywhere. And we are fortunate enough to have a constitutional system that means that the idiots can't remain in power for too long. Surely a Clinton, Obama, or McCain administration will do something to change the domestic landscape and help renew our standing in the world. Thank you, Framers, for our Constitution and George Washington for having the good sense to step down. Just looking at the fine American movies that arrived at the multiplex this year compared to the crap that we had to see during the 1990s, I am not sure I buy we're getting stupider. Seriously, has there been a better year for mainstream American movies than 2007? I can't think of one. BOLD TEXT GOES HEREThe People are NOT stupid.. its the SYSTEM that is stupid and makes them the way they are.
ggeo17 Posts: 208	Feb 19, 2008 3:51 PM GMT Quote Damarco said... I turned in my plan to write about the development of modern musical theatre. My teacher berated me in front of the class! This same teacher mocked me for turning in a full page report when others turned in a paragraph. When the teachers are joining in on the mockery, where do you stand? ... Damarco, I found this story stunning. I was confronted with similar attitudes when I was growing up in Jersey City NJ (1960's-70's) -- where some adults bragged that they never read a complete book in their life. Whatever happened to those people? Some just floundered in 'nowhere' jobs, some got involved in organized crime, some became local political leaders.
a1972guy Posts: 1943	Feb 19, 2008 3:52 PM GMT Quote I believe across the board human beings are becoming more demanding of immediate gratification and wanting everything like yesterday, which in turn is making us not work as tough or as smart; not forcing us to utilize our true potential properly. Then as the shit continues to run down the hill and now it's being lazy which now leads us to the stupidity level. That's how I see it!
fitnfunmich Posts: 145	Feb 19, 2008 4:16 PM GMT Quote Fascinating thread, with some very smart posts along the way. Hey FYI I was checking out the author (Susan Jacoby) and her posts on The Washington Post website, and she is doing an online Q&A session today at noon.
creyente Posts: 302	Feb 19, 2008 4:16 PM GMT Quote This is an interesting topic, thank you OW. I have not done any real investigation into whether the population as a whole is becoming less intelligent or whether the increase in the amount of data availability has made the issue of intelligence more prominent. Therefore, I can only offer opinion and observation at this time for what some of the underlying issues might be if indeed there is a decline in intelligence. I agree with some of the observations on the decline of the educational system as well as the increased pride in not being an elitist (aka, i don't need to know that for work) but I also think we need to look at the increase in the number of hours people are working. People have very little time to themselves anymore and during that time they need to take care of other day to day essentials. If they happen to find time to relax they often opt to escape into they myriad of readily available entertainment that is non challenging in nature; video games, reality TV, etc.. I also believe there is an overall feeling of helplessness over the state of affairs. There is a feeling that things will not change no matter how much we arm ourselves with knowledge and take the appropriate actions. People don't seem to believe in their own ability to make a difference and as a result do not expend the energy to better themselves or those around them. This is evident in this forum by individuals who believe fleeing to another country is the appropriate response. Stupidity is not isolated to any one area and if they believe they can actually run from it, they are sadly mistaken. In fact, they may be inadvertently adding to it. After reading some of the commentary, it appears a lot of people are focused on the impacts of stupidity (George Bush, Paris Hilton, etc..) and not trying to understand the underlying problem that produced this. This really shows that people are not taking the time to dig beyond what has been force fed to them as a problem. Whether this is because they do not have the time or because they truly believe these individuals are the cause, I am unsure. I have no love for either of these individuals but it’s clear they are only the culmination of something deeper in our society. The forum has piqued my interest in the topic and I will research further for my own benefit to determine if I can understand further where the truth lies. Are people really less intelligent or is my dumb cousin just getting more air time? Good question! Thanks!
irishboxers Posts: 329	Feb 19, 2008 4:21 PM GMT Quote I absolutely think the country is getting lazier and dumber. I also agree with the person who said it was always there, but thanks to the media it has become more obvious. When Britney Spears going to the hospital is one of the top 3 news stores on CNN, it's surely the decline of western civilization. I work in the restaurant industry doing corporate training, and I can testify first hand that the attention span and depth of knowledge of hourly employees are getting shorter and shorter. They can't form a complete sentence, have a hard time understanding basic courtesy and service, and don't want to do the work to make the money they want. We're starting to test them using online quizzes and more interactive "games" just to keep their focus on work and not their text messages. And don't even get me started on the religious right and their blind faith. I respect faith, but it's the blind faith that forsakes logic that gets me.
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 4:24 PM GMT Quote Travelstud: "The People are NOT stupid.. its the SYSTEM that is stupid and makes them the way they are." I wonder. I was educated to believe this -- that there was no such thing as stupidity, that there was only ignorance and lack of educational opportunity. But I can't account for too much that I experience first hand. I get a few emails every day from people who have read my published stuff and it is astounding to me how often people slam me, usually employing personal invective, for something I didn't even say. When I try to reason with them, they just accelerate their attacks. I don't know any opinion writer who doesn't complain about that these days. I do think the Internet has affected this. Whereas people used to have to sit down, write a letter, put a stamp on it and walk to a mailbox, they can now fire off something that is purely visceral. This emotional, reactive style seems to characterize most public discourse now. People have really come to believe that it's appropriate to launch personal attacks. I know this because, while I find that an immediate response of trying to reason with people rarely works, I have found that if I write back that I'm unwilling to converse with them if they are going to engage in personal attack, they almost always apologize. Another observation: It seems to me too that gay people have, with all their other efforts at assimilation, adopted "learned stupidity" too. (I call it the "Forrest Gumping of homosexuality.") Without fail, the nastiest, most personal mail I receive is from other gay men. Numerous gay writers, including Mike Signorile, have told me they have the same experience. I wrote a weekly gay column for 7 years and I've had few days happier than the one I quit doing it and could go to a bar or answer my phone again without expecting to be blasted by some ranting 'mo.
ObsceneWish Posts: 3364	Feb 19, 2008 4:25 PM GMT Quote fitnfunmich saidFascinating thread, with some very smart posts along the way. Hey FYI I was checking out the author (Susan Jacoby) and her posts on The Washington Post website, and she is doing an online Q&A session today at noon. Thanks for the tip!
art_smass Posts: 822	Feb 19, 2008 4:26 PM GMT Quote The discussion that Obscenewish's first post generated is fascinating, but let's get back to the original topic: Kelly Pickler.
spryte21 Posts: 348	Feb 19, 2008 5:00 PM GMT Quote http://mnetokwe.pbwiki.com/8th+GRADE+FINAL+EXAM++1895 this link goes to my one of my own pages. see if you are smarter than an 8th grader. however it is not a current test they give 8th graders, it's from 113 years ago!
Hidden/Deleted Member	Feb 19, 2008 5:04 PM GMT Quote