TO MY DEAR RJ FRIENDS, ABOUT THE MUSLIM COMMENTS

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    Aug 17, 2010 10:05 PM GMT
    Well, I got pretty beat up about them. But ya know what I noticed? My friends here still called me their friend, even while they were strongly disagreeing with me. The mark of gentlemen, the kind of men I respect & admire.

    My motive in that? Highly emotional. Those were MY Twin Towers that were taken down. And I think they were yours, too. It was my generation's Pearl Harbor. Difficult for me to rationalize that, or not want to reply in kind.

    I still have my doubts about Islam's designs on us, I won't sugar-coat that. But I spoke in anger and absolutes, and of course that always is a mistake, and wrong.

    So I thank those of you who continued to call me your friend, even while you criticized my remarks. I promise in the future to be less emotional, and more circumspect. And to keep in mind that not all Muslims hate the US, that they will comply with our Constitution, and that the rights of US citizenship are absolute.
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    Aug 17, 2010 10:35 PM GMT
    Good job, Wilton. I haven't seen this kind of openness to criticism from one of your frequent detractors.

    We all make intemperate comments from time to time. Frankly, I don't see how you can take the continual saracasm and nasty comments from southbeach.

    Another common criticism that appears on RJ forums from our conservative friends is that there are no compliments directed towards Republicans. I made one earlier today.

    Here's another one...directed towards a man whom I believe history will judge as one of the worst Presidents of all time, Bush Jr.

    On the day of 9/11, the speech he made that evening was brilliant. It took me aback it was so even toned and statesman-like. He counseled the country that these radical wack jobs professing to be God's messengers did NOT represent all of Islam. He counseled Americans not to apply mindless stereotypes in knee-jerk reaction to the fall of the towers.

    I lost no one that day, unlike some of you, as pointed out by reppaT. But it was one of the most horrifying, worst days of my life. It was a nightmare. And I despised the people who flew those planes.

    But lumping all Muslims into one pot is wrong....and I am glad you have thought better of your comments.

    Congratulations.
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    Aug 18, 2010 12:15 AM GMT
    Hey Wilton, friends as usual. No one's perfect, all are entitled to change their minds and the ones that do self reflection and change their POVs are the keepers.

    You're a keeper.


    xo -us guys
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    Aug 18, 2010 1:15 AM GMT
    meninlove said Hey Wilton, friends as usual. No one's perfect, all are entitled to change their minds and the ones that do self reflection and change their POVs are the keepers.

    You're a keeper.

    xo -us guys

    Hearing that from you guys, the RJ standard, and from fastprof, another guy I've come to admire, helps to make it all better. Thanks! icon_biggrin.gif
  • jgymnast733

    Posts: 1783

    Aug 18, 2010 1:23 AM GMT
    Its cool man, it shows your human, and the cream of the crop for recognizing your tone.... We all say things in anger,, anyone who knows you knows what an asset you are to RJ with your truthful yet thought provoking questions and rebuttles...........icon_wink.gif
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    Aug 18, 2010 1:47 AM GMT
    I had agreed with you on the no-Muslims thing for a while, but then stopped posting because I wanted time to re-think the situation.
    I keep thinking about countries such as Iran where they use Islam law against homosexuals and others who disagree, and impose death penalties for them.

    I guess my mind still isn't made up on the issue, but I will call you friend any day. Everyone has disagreements. icon_biggrin.gif
  • yankeesblazer...

    Posts: 243

    Aug 18, 2010 1:58 AM GMT
    Wilton saidWell, I got pretty beat up about them. But ya know what I noticed? My friends here still called me their friend, even while they were strongly disagreeing with me. The mark of gentlemen, the kind of men I respect & admire.

    My motive in that? Highly emotional. Those were MY Twin Towers that were taken down. And I think they were yours, too. It was my generation's Pearl Harbor. Difficult for me to rationalize that, or not want to reply in kind.

    I still have my doubts about Islam's designs on us, I won't sugar-coat that. But I spoke in anger and absolutes, and of course that always is a mistake, and wrong.

    So I thank those of you who continued to call me your friend, even while you criticized my remarks. I promise in the future to be less emotional, and more circumspect. And to keep in mind that not all Muslims hate the US, that they will comply with our Constitution, and that the rights of US citizenship are absolute.


    It takes a big man to say something like this Wilton, and I have a newfound respect for you. I was only in the 6th grade when the towers fell, but it is still a vivid and horrific memory for me. Trust me, I can understand your frustration.
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    Aug 18, 2010 2:12 AM GMT
    viveutvitas> Jews have similar laws (stoning people, etc.), but they do not define what it means to be Jewish today, except for some orthodox fundamentalists.

    Not really. No Jewish court has issued a death-by-stoning sentence since before the advent of Islam and Christianity (the Sanhedrin banned capital punishment in 30 CE). That includes the "orthodox fundamentalists."


    Wilton, I'm also glad to hear that you have reconsidered.
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    Aug 18, 2010 3:19 AM GMT
    jgymnast733 saidIts cool man, it shows your human, and the cream of the crop for recognizing your tone.... We all say things in anger,, anyone who knows you knows what an asset you are to RJ with your truthful yet thought provoking questions and rebuttles...........icon_wink.gif

    Thank you, and to the others here who have been very understanding, especially in private e-mails. I have always tried to offer more help than harm here, but when I go on a tirade, hide the women & children. LOL!!!

    OK, no excuse, I know that. And *I* should know better. Well, my parents taught me that I should be learning until the day I die, and I hope I'm still learning. I sometimes just get frustrated, though, and wonder -- when will I have finally learned enough to stop making stupid mistakes?

    Apparently not any time soon. Just when I've corrected one error, and say to myself "I won't make that mistake again" I manage to find a new mistake to make. ARRRRGGGGHHHH.... And at MY age! Will it never end? icon_sad.gif
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    Aug 18, 2010 3:45 AM GMT
    Making mistakes, like aging, is better than the alternative...?


    viveutvetas> how it is justified theologically. Was God wrong when he ordered stoning and approved slavery?

    Jews don't interpret the Bible literally. In fact, there has always been the companion of the "Oral law", ostensibly passed down from God through Moses at the same time as the Tanakh. After the destruction of Judea (70 CE), there began an effort to commit this to writing to ensure it was preserved.

    The standards for when someone could be put to death were always set high in order to avoid killing an innocent man. Better to leave that punishment to an infallible God.

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    Aug 18, 2010 4:03 AM GMT
    lol that was more than just a christian solution at the time, veveutvivas. A few religions went that route besides christians and Jews. It's part of the horrors of our collective developments as societies, I believe.

    -Doug
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    Aug 18, 2010 4:23 AM GMT
    Judaism is much more concerned with life in this world than the "other side".

    Mishnah (Oral Law):
    A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive. Rabbi Eliezer ben Azariah says: a Sanhedrin that puts a man to death even once in seventy years. Rabbi Akiba and Rabbi Tarfon say: Had we been in the Sanhedrin none would ever have been put to death.

    Rabbi Moses Maimonides:
    It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death.

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    Aug 18, 2010 7:06 AM GMT
    This is impressive, and shows the wide space between you and some of the silly bitches on this site who are just stirring.
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    Aug 18, 2010 10:05 AM GMT
    Kudos!

    It takes a man of character to admit he is wrong, especially in such a public forum.

    Apology is a lovely perfume; it can transform the clumsiest moment into a gracious gift. ~Margaret Lee Runbeck

    Right actions in the future are the best apologies for bad actions in the past. ~Tryon Edwards
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    Aug 18, 2010 12:46 PM GMT
    paulflexes saidI had agreed with you on the no-Muslims thing for a while, but then stopped posting because I wanted time to re-think the situation.
    I keep thinking about countries such as Iran where they use Islam law against homosexuals and others who disagree, and impose death penalties for them.

    I guess my mind still isn't made up on the issue, but I will call you friend any day. Everyone has disagreements. icon_biggrin.gif


    I always keep in mind that it's about who's in power. If the right-wing christianists had their way our government would be executing gay people as well.

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    Aug 18, 2010 12:47 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidMaking mistakes, like aging, is better than the alternative...?


    viveutvetas> how it is justified theologically. Was God wrong when he ordered stoning and approved slavery?

    Jews don't interpret the Bible literally. In fact, there has always been the companion of the "Oral law", ostensibly passed down from God through Moses at the same time as the Tanakh. After the destruction of Judea (70 CE), there began an effort to commit this to writing to ensure it was preserved.

    The standards for when someone could be put to death were always set high in order to avoid killing an innocent man. Better to leave that punishment to an infallible God.



    I could never believe in a god who forbid me from eating tasty, tasty bacon.
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    Aug 18, 2010 2:26 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidJudaism is much more concerned with life in this world than the "other side".

    Mishnah (Oral Law):
    A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive. Rabbi Eliezer ben Azariah says: a Sanhedrin that puts a man to death even once in seventy years. Rabbi Akiba and Rabbi Tarfon say: Had we been in the Sanhedrin none would ever have been put to death.

    Rabbi Moses Maimonides:
    It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death.

    I sometimes attend Sabbath services with our Jewish friends. And our non-denominational chorus annually sings the Kol Nidrei for Yom Kippur at evening services. And I've sadly attended a memorial service for someone's gay partner at Beth Israel in Miami Beach.

    And every time I attend a Jewish service, for whatever reason, I am struck by the comparison with Christian services. No eating of flesh or drinking of blood, no glorification of horrible torture, but a loving experience, a beautiful experience.

    I've considered converting a number of times, but first I have to believe in ANY god, before I can worship a particular one. I do technically belong to an MCC, a gay church that has the most loving members, and it's a joyous experience to attend. And recently I was asked to resume speaking from the pulpit again as a Lector. Well, I had previously rationalized doing that as a speaking exercise, one of my talents, but even my hypocrisy has its limits.

    At the same time, I seem to recall some Jewish sects, particularly in Israel, who oppose gays, and on the basis of religious beliefs. As a gay man, I have come to be wary of all religion, because it has too many faces, one moment smiling at me, the next moment snarling. I always have to ask the question: is religion a gift from God, or a gimmick from man?
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    Aug 18, 2010 7:06 PM GMT
    gregography saidI always keep in mind that it's about who's in power. If the right-wing christianists had their way our government would be executing gay people as well.

    I read their comments on news threads, and that is exactly what they say, that we have no right to live, and should be killed. You can go there, and read these things. Yet there are those here on this site who support them, and support the political candidates they endorse. Pure suicidal.
  • MikemikeMike

    Posts: 6932

    Aug 18, 2010 7:16 PM GMT
    I know of alot of catholic, protestant,episcopal, and unitarian churches that welcome gays and our gay friendly.

    I do not know or have ever heard or any gay friendly muslims churches in the US or any other country.

    Our country was founded on christianity, but you can bet your lives if the muslim religion becomes the major religion in the United States you can kiss all your gay lifestyles, freedoms and rights away permanently. Think about it.

    Nothing against muslims. I have a quite a few muslim friends, and the gay ones lead lives of seclusion and in fear their families will find out dissown them and cut them off compeletely as if they were dead. It's a tough choice they must make, and many I know will still have to marry woman.
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    Aug 18, 2010 7:29 PM GMT
    viveutvivas saidIf I were you, I would be more worried about the Christian fundamentalists taking over the U.S. That is actually something that could happen - in fact we came close to it with Bush. They are as bad as the Taliban, and would take your gay lifestyles, freedoms and rights as a gay person away in a second.

    Agree. The Christian Fundamentalists are our own Taliban. And the alcoholic Bush was their tool.

    But what do we do? The tide appears to be against us yet again. I don't see any gay leaders stepping forward, except to tell us how fucked we are once again. icon_sad.gif
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    Aug 18, 2010 7:57 PM GMT
    viveutvivas said
    Wilton said
    But what do we do? The tide appears to be against us yet again. I don't see any gay leaders stepping forward, except to tell us how fucked we are once again. icon_sad.gif

    I think it may be time to ACT-UP again, but I fear the newer generations are too passive for that kind of thing.

    I agree. We lack leaders. And even if we had leaders, it would be for naught. Because gays are like herding cats. Who would these leaders lead? No one would follow them. Gays are all about ME, ME, ME, and couldn't follow someone if they handed out free drinks.
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    Aug 18, 2010 8:19 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidAnd of course, it's all thanks to me that you have "seen the error of your ways." icon_wink.gif

    So good to see that your Democrat friends are so forgiving of a fellow Democrat for holding such bigoted views.

    It was your hatred that kept me so adamant in my original views.

    Instead, it was the posts of guys I respect, and their e-mails, still calling me their friend, while strongly disagreeing with me, that made me think again. If my friends can oppose me, guys I admire, I have to reconsider. Opposition from my constant enemies is to be expected and ignored.

    Don't give yourself such credit. It was the good guys here who made me realize my error, and change my mind, not you. And when I read their posts, and their e-mails, not yours, I realized my mistake.

    So don't make false claims. This is nothing about you, but about my RJ friends. Who told me I was wrong, and to whom I listened. Maybe someday you will have such friends here, too.
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    Aug 18, 2010 10:48 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidGood grief. You actually believed that I believed that it was because of me that you changed your view?

    Your view is the last thing anyone here regards.

    But here is your own post:

    ...it's all thanks to me that you have "seen the error of your ways."
  • commoncoll

    Posts: 1222

    Aug 18, 2010 10:53 PM GMT
    What does it matter? Wilton apologised. It is over. Stop making it bigger than it is.
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    Aug 18, 2010 11:09 PM GMT
    commoncoll saidWhat does it matter? Wilton apologised. It is over. Stop making it bigger than it is.

    I did indeed apologize. Not sure what else I can do.