Gay Lefties: What's the Deal?

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    Jun 05, 2007 11:31 PM GMT
    The gay establishment voices wonderment that a gay guy could be Republican, but what I find even more astounding is the huge number of gay guys who puppet Left Wing ideology, no matter what the issue. For example, first, how could a gay guy be opposed to the right to bare arms, which is essential to self defense, when gays are often the target of violence? Why take away your own right to protect yourself with a gun when a gang of punks surround you with crowbars? Second, how could a gay guy be for abortion when it's logical to assume at least 2-10% of the 1.5 million babies aborted in the United States each year could be gay? It's even harder to understand supporting aborbtion when the technology to discover the "gay gene" is right around the corner. Third, why be for high taxes to pay for social programs that few if any gay guys would ever utilize--or, more importantly, COULD utilize? Not to mention the estate tax which hammers gay couples more than any other tax. The Left is adamantly opposed to ending the estate tax despite it being a financial diaster to surviving partners of same-sex relationships. Ironically, the most "liberal" states have the highest taxes which hurt gay people more than any other citizens. It's one thing to be a free and open classical liberal who believes in liberty, but why does the gay establishment support such radical Left Wing agendas that harm gay people more than help them? I'm still trying to figure out the Marxist Lesbian contingent in last year's Chicago Gay Pride Parade holding up signs supporting Palestine. Isn't it more important to support Israel which has women's and gay rights than to support a culture or country where women are second class citizens and gays are executed if not imprisoned? If you had to choose, wouldn't you rather live in Israel rather than Palestine? I just don't get the gay Left. They might as well drink the Kool Aid....
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    Jun 05, 2007 11:55 PM GMT
    How DARE you? Do you have no sense of irony? Do you not see that there is something manifestly contradictory in supporting the right to bear arms while opposing abortion?

    I could go on (and on) but since there is not way to persuade you otherwise, let me jump to the finale:

    Chill out. Have a wank. Go kitesurfing!

    People: Do not rise to the TROLL!
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    Jun 06, 2007 12:30 AM GMT
    I support the right to bear arms as well as CCW laws. As an adoptee, I'm not keen on abortion, but I ultimately come down on the side of a woman's choice in that matter. I'm all for the repeal of the estate tax, as is my lefty dad who also thinks the 2nd Amendment should be repealed. Israel vs. Palestine? They're both equally effective at brutalizing each other, and I'm perfectly content to support both or neither because I'm not drawn to either polarity. Let 'em do their monotheistic eye-for-an-eye shtick until they're all dead or blind.
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    Jun 06, 2007 12:45 AM GMT
    And, getting people to vote against their own self-interest is hardly a lefty-only phenomenon. The GOP's anti-gay platform is very effective at getting righties to vote for politicians who then send the righties' jobs overseas.
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    Jun 06, 2007 2:12 AM GMT
    Why be for high taxes that support social programs even if we'll never use them? I don't mean to offend, but I don't think I can come up with enough synonyms for 'selfish' and 'arrogant' to describe that statement.

    Granted, homosexuals get alot of press for having a great deal of spending power. But let's really keep in mind social services provide STD/HIV testing, drugs and care to those that can't afford it (a group of which there are many). The vast majority of HIV infections aren't occurring in lawyers that make $200K+ per year. Social services provide for healthcare for the uninsured, social security when you retire, and disability and unemployment should you become injured or lose your job.

    Social services do NOT care if you are gay, straight, black, white or a total asshole. All that matters is that you're in NEED of something that is essential to your survival.

    And the last time I checked, social theory encourages and really requires that those that 'have' help those that don't. If you don't think that's true, you might as well stick the 37 million people in the US in poverty on an island and forget about them.

    We all owe a debt to take care of each other, in any way we can, particularly in a culture that is becoming increasingly focused on self.

  • Jun 06, 2007 2:49 AM GMT
    I agree with the comments these other guys have made; no offense but you come off as a selfish dick.
    The most liberal states usually have the highest taxes because they usually have the wealthiest citizens living in them. Those taxes are used for more than social reform programs; what about roads? Water and waste services? Schools? Public transportation? You may not drive a car but a lot of what you use every day comes via roads, whether it be your amazon.com package or your groceries or your mail. Do you not think that those unaborted gay kids would like an education? or health care?
    As for abortion a lot of people who are 'lefties' tend to side with the woman's physical and emotional welfare rather than that of the unborn child, despite whether that unborn child may or may not be gay. Abortions are not something any woman 'just does', it's a very painful and emotional operation leaving you in hospital for several days.
    And the gun thing, I think most people who are against guns are more concerned with someone storming into their kid's school and killing innocent people rather than whether you do or do not get attacked by some thugs with crowbars. And what will you do when those crowbars are actually guns?
    And as for Palastine, being gay used to be illegal here too just like people used to fight for the land that they beleived was rightfully theirs.
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    Jun 06, 2007 3:02 AM GMT
    Politics are very much a personal issue. I support gun control, I am not against the Second Amendment, but I don't feel that you need a military weapon, you dont need a machine gun. I also don't feel that I need people walking anywhere with a gun, there is a time and a place, this isn't the wild wild west leave it at home. I would never own a gun, because I am a very nonviolent person, and I think the gay movement is very much an antiviolence movement, and I can tell you for one if someone is going to hurt you having a gun won't do much to stop it.

    I support a womans right to choose becuase I belive that its about letting people control their personal lives and not butting in. I don't like it when people tell me how to live so I am not going to tell some woman that she has to keep her baby. Personal freedoms. As for finding a gay gene letting people use that to abort, that would be wrong, just as wrong as if a woman found out a child had a genetic disease and killing it for that reason. There is a difference between getting an abortion because you aren't ready for a child or because you are going to have a non "perfect" child.

    I support high taxes and social programs because I belive when you have the money to help those less lucky than thou you should. A Jewish saying goes "I would give to 100 beggars in the event that one truly needs help." And on top of that you never know when you might need those programs.

    As for Israel I support Israel but I also feel that Palistinains need their own state, we took their land but there is no reason that we can't both peacefully exist in one area.

    So there you have some reasons for supporting those issues. And the right wing isn't exactly welcoming to gays. Lack of support for hate crime legislation, lack of support for ENDA, support for DOMA, consistant support for Don't Ask Don't Tell. I think those are reasons enough.
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    Jun 06, 2007 3:38 AM GMT
    Boys: Liltally is the latest reincarnation of someone who was kicked off the site for his frequent personal attacks when people had the audacity to confront his arguments with fact.

    He has such a severe case of Multiple Screen Name Personality Disorder that he has on occasion created a consensus by enlisting his own alter egos.
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    Jun 06, 2007 3:43 AM GMT
    Yes, and he even responds to his own posts under one of his other pseudonyms.

    Of course, I have seen his full suite of pictures in his initial guise as "cutemascjock". And I support his right to bare his arms...because he has great biceps.

    However, what I find most offensive about him is is allusion to Jim Jone's Kool Air poisoning of what, 500 people?

    The previous time he used this expression was directed towards me when I tried to reason with him (when I thought he wasn't an idealogue and a ranter) on Global Warming.

    It's an expression (...drinking Kool Aid...) that never should be used in civilized discourse.

    But, then, we must consider the source...

    John
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    Jun 06, 2007 3:46 AM GMT
    Thanks Obscenewish and fastprof for the heads up. New here and its good to know such things.
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    Jun 06, 2007 4:28 AM GMT
    The estate tax affects only the highest 2% of estates. The following quote from the IRS publication shows the gift tax and estate tax does not affect people with estates under $2,780,800. Very few of us are going to be bothered by that.

    "For Gift Tax Purposes in years 2006, 2007 and 2008 the Unified Credit is $345,800, the Applicable Exclusion Amount is $1,000,000. For Estate Tax Purposes in years 2006, 2007 and 2008 the Unified Credit is $780,800 and the Applicable Exclusion Amount is $2,000,000."

    However, the mainly Republican effort to keep spousal rights from gays which we might get from gay marriage or domestic partnership means gays have to pay more in other taxes which do affect averge people.



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    Jun 06, 2007 4:32 AM GMT
    It never takes long for him to demonstrate why he was evicted.

    As Gen. Jack D. Ripper said in Dr. Strangelove:

    "I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."
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    Jun 06, 2007 6:00 AM GMT
    Maybe you should write a book on your theories.
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    Jun 06, 2007 6:43 AM GMT
    I'm left-handed, if that helps.
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    Jun 06, 2007 6:54 AM GMT
    Honestly Liltally, I'm slightly confused between your two posts as they don't seem to go with eachother. But for me it boils down to what sort of society you want. Personally I believe, and want, a society that is based on more than an individual in isolation. For example while I have no problem with guns, per se, and a culture of hunting animals I am leary of the assertion of personal protection. Yes, the police may not be able to protect you 100% of the time, but can you really protect yourself 100% of the time? And do you really want the consequences, and breakdown, of a society that believes only the individual can protect him/herself? And while I may sound idealistic, I think this represents the ultimate breakdown in trust that underpins society, and a disregard for the idea of society in general, and the tyranny of extreme individualism. The individual is not an isolated creature that developed sui generis, you have come from others and were provided for by others who took the time and energy to provide you with the foundations for a good life. And in fact in America your life is more influenced by the economic status of your parents than in many other Western countries. That is to say that, despite the popular myth, America is not as socially mobile as most of Europe -- including such "socially determined" countries as Great Britain.
    I may not always like government or society, but I give to society because I get back from it, and if not I then those less fortunate than I -- and maybe at sometime myself if I find myself in a less than fortunate position. And ultimately these are things that government can provide that no one else can.
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    Jun 06, 2007 7:12 AM GMT
    Cooper left hand people are all commies.
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    Jun 06, 2007 7:57 AM GMT
    so my cat has problems using his literbox recently. nothing has changed but for some reason he wont poop in it consistantly anymore. He used to be just fine before like any other cat he would poop in his liter box. He has no pee issues. He only does it in his room but just to be sure, the fam decided to not let him out of his room. (he uses a unused bedroom) Does anyone have advice, this thread seems pointless and I figured it should get plenty of hits so... if anyone has advice.
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    Jun 06, 2007 9:41 AM GMT
    lol at owl975. ;-)
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    Jun 06, 2007 12:06 PM GMT
    I don't yet have experience with geriatric kitties, but it might be an age issue. You should probably take kitty to the vet.
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    Jun 06, 2007 12:25 PM GMT
    "I support a womans right to choose becuase I belive that its about letting people control their personal lives and not butting in." "There is a difference between getting an abortion because you aren't ready for a child or because you are going to have a non "perfect" child."

    Not sure how you can reconcile these statements.

    There has been a lot of talk about money and taxes. From my view I see the Dem's as the party of "distribution of wealth". Hasn't this experiment been tried before?
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    Jun 06, 2007 1:53 PM GMT
    That is bizarre, Owl, but be happy it's not pee. If I locked any of my cats in one room, they'd scratch the door and howl 24 hours a day. Some stray shit would be a small cost for their silence.
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    Jun 06, 2007 2:25 PM GMT
    I'm pro-life. As a gay man, I am afraid that if a genetic marker which predisposes a child to being is discovered, then parents will abort a child that they believe is going to be gay. This sort of thing is already being done by parents who find out their child will have Down's syndrome or autism.

    I'm not sure that outlawing abortion is the answer. As a Democrat, I am for providing the sort of social programs which will render abortion unnecessary--prenatal health care, day care, etc.

    It is difficult for me to see how gays can support the right to choose since it could easily lead to no more gays ever being born. We'd be eliminated in the womb along with the deaf, autistic, mentally handicapped, and all the other imperfect children. I want to work to create a society where all children are welcome.
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    Jun 06, 2007 2:43 PM GMT
    "I'm not sure that outlawing abortion is the answer."

    That is a pro-choice sentiment. If you were purely pro-life, you would be sure that outlawing abortion is the answer.
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    Jun 06, 2007 2:52 PM GMT
    I don't understand all of the name calling. It serves no useful purpose.

    After learning about RealJock, I have enjoyed the difference of opinions here and try and learn even from those I may not agree with.

    If I become close minded, I stop learning.

    I also don't agree with people being thrown off just because they don't espouse the same opinions of others on the site.

    We are adults and can read past that which we don't like or offends us.

    If we answer the post with our own viewpoints and why we agree or disagree much can be learned from each other.

    To the post....

    I do honestly wonder why the gay community seems to lean left.

    Right to bare arms..

    In a mostly civilized society when things are going smoothly, it seems that this is almost unnecessary. But things don't always go smoothly, even in America.

    Here in Atlanta, the police recently broke into an 80+ year old ladies home and killed her because they were serving a search warrant on the wrong home. With a gun, she may have been able to defend herself. There are numerious cases of this type across the country.

    In the aftermath of Katrina, people were killed and homes and businesses were robbed and looted. Some were stopped by gun owners protecting what was theirs. No shots had to be fired. Is this wrong?

    Rapes, bugularies, robberies and more are stopped every 24 hours in America because of our rights to bare arms.

    It does not mean that you have to have an AK-47.

    I do believe that life takes precedence over personal property.

    I goes back to personal responsibility.

    I grew up with a father who had guns in the house. We were taught not to touch them until we were old enough to know how to use them.

    Abortion....

    I just can't understand abortion and I don't agree with it. (extreme circumstances excluded, life of mother) It is very similar to me as HIV/AIDS.

    I have said before, I believe in a woman's right to choose. I believe she should choose prior to sex. If she is having sex that can result in a baby, she is haveing sex that can result in her own death and the death of the baby which is beyond her control such as STD's/HIV/AIDS.

    I am not so arrogant to think that me or any human being has the right to take the life of another. For those who don't believe it is a life, leave it alone and let nature take it's course. I nature aborts it fine, (spontanious abortion/other) but if think it becomes a life without human intervention that should be o.k. too.

    I know some will say my views are contradictory with guns and abortion. So to simplify it for those. Only kill with a gun if you are about to be killed. Only use abortion when the life of the mother is at risk.

    I personally believe that abortion is being used as birth control. And unlike one of the posters, it is not as painful physically as one might think. I worked as a Paramedic while in college at a Level 1 Trama Center. The mental scars can be horrible, but unfortunately many of the girls are to young to understand the decision they are making under such pressure.

    Abortion just as in HIV/AIDS is a preventable situation in most cases. The pain can be minimized with personal responsibility. We know how to do it, I don't understand why we refuse. We are loosing generations of Americans.

    (In NO way am I placing blame on anyone, I am only sharing my viewpoints. This is the way I learn from others who will surely have a wide ranging opinion which is different from mine.)

    The question always comes up...How do we feed or cloth them. We found a way before abortion, and it may not be easy. But I believe we all share the responisibility. If you condone abortion, it the same as having one.

    Socal Programs that are tax payer funded...

    I could go on and on with this one but I have already gone one and on with the others.

    In my humble opinion, social programs are best kept out of the hands of the federal government. Most thing we put into the hands of the federal government get bigger with less quality and more expensive. If programs were state issues, we could watch them more closely.

    I believe in helping those TRUELY less fortunate. But I don't believe the government should have the ability to disproportionately take my money. I will happily contribute what everyone else does. My income level should not matter. If I choose to work harder or longer to make more money than someone who is capable of doing the same and doesn't for whatever reason, I shouldn't pay a different amount. Otherwise we are going to create a society where I see somesone not working hard (that is capable, not less fortunate) and I am paying more and I and others like me decide we won't work hard either. This is already happening in America. Just today CNBC is reporting that Europe about to clean our clock. They already are with the Euro/Dollar spread.

    A side note on Healthcare being nationalized is similar to what I said above. Wh
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    Jun 06, 2007 2:53 PM GMT
    A side note on Healthcare being nationalized is similar to what I said above. When we put our health in the hands of the federal government, we will eventually have far less control

    As aself employed man in my 40's, my partner and I only pay about $400.00 per month each for excellent coverage. For those not self employed understand that this amount is our full amount. We don't have an employer match because we are the employer. When we were in our 20's and 30's the amount was 1/2 so even better. So for less than $5,000 per year I get great coverage and I have the control. If the federal government was in the mix it would be like trying to figure out my mothers new precription benefits program from the government. Tons of paperwork and government bureaucracy to save 10%. (sidenote) I am not well versed in this area so before someone corrects me, I just don't understand it is my point. I have to call my accountant who has a mother my age to have him explain it when I need clarification. It's like the tax law, it changes often.

    My point with healthcare is this. For $5,000 per year or 50K for 10 years or as in my case approximately 50K since I have been self employed, I have had coverage that is excellent and anyone can have their own policy. One major hospitilization could potentially cost many times what I have paid.

    If the government becomes involved, who knows?

    Also, If you don't think you are paying for your own health care already, don't be so sure. As an employer I can tell you that your salary is lowered or raises lessened to reflect what you cost your employer.

    If you don't have health insurance, buy your own. The economy is going gang busters so jobs are abundant.

    Estate Taxes....

    Estate taxes should be abolished. We pay taxes when we earn the money, we pay taxes when we spend the money. Leave the dead alone.

    One other estate issue. Most of the gay guys who bitch about the laws preventing gay marriage don't even have a current will or durable powers of attornies for their partners. Those are simple things that are easily done and are incredibly important. So use the rights you have now to the fullest and continue the fight for equality in the other areas. If your not using the rights you have now to the fullest, quit your bitchin' :)

    I am not trying to pursuade anyone to my viewpoints only trying to create constructive dialog.

    If you disagree or agree, let's discuss the issues as adults. The name calling and such is uncalled for and childish. If anyone should know this it is gay men.

    One last point..As for the poster being thrown off and on and back again. I don't know the situration, but unless someone is belligerent I don't see any reason for throwing someone off. I have view points that some agree with and some don't. That is why I like this site so much. It allows us the opportunity to learn from others. My view points come from my collective life experiences. I am not so close minded that if given good reason to reevaluate my view point, I am not above doing so. That is WISDOM.