The Latest Matthew Shepherd

  • olden

    Posts: 194

    Feb 23, 2008 9:03 PM GMT
    Well, we don't seem to have come very far! Yesterday, Oxnard, CA held a memorial service for 15-year old Lawrence King, who was shot and killed by a 14-year old class mate. Lawrence was gay. The killer (I refuse to use the word "alleged") will be tried as an adult and for a hate crime. This is perhaps the only positive feature that I can see.

    Oxnard is between Los Angeles and Ventura/Santa Barbara on the California coast. It is not a rural community (read not fun-damn-mentalist), so I feel the trial will be fair, both ways. Hopefully, in six years when he is transferred to an adult facility, the killer will get to know what it is like to be a bottom.
  • Hunter9

    Posts: 1039

    Feb 23, 2008 10:03 PM GMT
    its tragic of course...and no, oxnard is not fundamentalists (though plenty of catholics).

    oxnard is a poor sh*t-hole... gangs, poverty, bad schools, primarily agricultural industries which exploit workers... its the toilet of ventura county.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2008 10:17 PM GMT
    Its too bad the kids parents cant be tried as well. My guess is theyve been spewing hatred to their son for his whole life.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2008 11:04 PM GMT

    Rural town is ALL I need to hear.
    However, when I was a scrawny kid, I knew I was gay, but went through great pains to keep it secret.
    Now, in my twenties, I have more PRIDE than you can shake a stick at!
    So, as you can imagine, it hurts me a lot to have to say this: people in small towns have an obligation to appear as nuetral as they can manage!

    Anyone like Mathew Shepherd, who was like a walking PRIDE poster, I can only have marginal pity for.
    Harsh yes, but if I walked into the middle of a KKK meeting and shouted "black iz good, white ain't!", after the beatdown, would you feel sorry for me?

    As for this town, I can trash the ignorant hiks and hypocritical religious right that prevail here when I am in Palm Springs or cruising fags in Dupont Circle, but when I return here, I am back on their turf and I don't forget it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2008 11:07 PM GMT
    GuiltyGear said
    Rural town is ALL I need to hear.
    However, when I was a scrawny kid, I knew I was gay, but went through great pains to keep it secret.
    Now, in my twenties, I have more PRIDE than you can shake a stick at!
    So, as you can imagine, it hurts me a lot to have to say this: people in small towns have an obligation to appear as nuetral as they can manage!

    Anyone like Mathew Shepherd, who was like a walking PRIDE poster, I can only have marginal pity for.
    Harsh yes, but if I walked into the middle of a KKK meeting and shouted "black iz good, white ain't!", after the beatdown, would you feel sorry for me?

    As for this town, I can trash the ignorant hiks and hypocritical religious right that prevail here when I am in Palm Springs or cruising fags in Dupont Circle, but when I return here, I am back on their turf and I don't forget it.


    This is the most ignorant post Ive seen in a while. Blaming Matt Shepherd for what happened to him is something Id expect from the extreme right wing conservatives.
  • Hunter9

    Posts: 1039

    Feb 23, 2008 11:11 PM GMT
    GuiltyGear said
    it hurts me a lot to have to say this: people in small towns have an obligation to appear as nuetral as they can manage!


    I think the word "obligation" is a poor choice of words. It's a free country, we're not obligated to do anything except obey written laws (and even that is questionable). However, you do need to be realistic about your environment in order to protect yourself.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2008 11:17 PM GMT
    Thanks Olden for bring this to our attention. Some members of society will never 'get-it' or learn from the criminal activities of others - What a DISGRACE!

    My thoughts and prayers, go out to all those lives that were touched by Lawrence King and yes - lets never forget Matthew Shepperd.

    The vicitms' families will suffer for life and I hope that they can at least get some type of financial benefit for imposed horror on their lives - The word 'Compensation' is never appropriate for the victim's loved ones, these young men leave behind; as no amount of money can replace the vicitm(s).

    WHAT A SICK INSECURE world we live in.icon_mad.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2008 11:19 PM GMT
    ShortJake, I am gay and I live in a small bigoted Oklahoma town, small fry. So how can what I say be ignorant? I got twenty six years of experience on the subject, little guy. icon_biggrin.gif

    Hunter(, you only repeated what I said in different words. Yes, an obligation to be aware to your surroundings and behave accordingly. It ain't far, but why do you think some people prefer the isolation of small town living, because they have more POWER in that situation.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2008 11:30 PM GMT
    Guiltygear, your spurious comments and name calling are damned near irresponsible. You should apologize to both Shortjake and Matthew Shepard's family, and it would behoove you to think twice before making some of the comments you sometimes make.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2008 11:52 PM GMT

    WHoa, hold the flames, people. I didn't call ShortJake any names or disrespect Mathew Shepherd...I only spoke on a subject I have a lot of experience in and I was attacked, which has become a trend in this forum.
    P.S...littleguy and small fry, terms of endearment so grow up, JB.
  • zakariahzol

    Posts: 2241

    Feb 23, 2008 11:56 PM GMT
    I am with GG on this. Eventhough I didnt agree that Matthew and Lawrence are a deserving victim, but I do think you need to behave yourself when you are living in town where you are surrounded by gay hated population . I should know better ,I live in a gay intolerant country. I am only asking for trouble if I behave otherwise. I am not being a coward or anything but this is called survival.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 24, 2008 12:07 AM GMT

    Phew, thanks Z, I was sufferin major sun exposure here.
  • cacti

    Posts: 273

    Feb 24, 2008 1:42 AM GMT
    GuiltyGearAnyone like Mathew Shepherd, who was like a walking PRIDE poster, I can only have marginal pity for.
    Harsh yes, but if I walked into the middle of a KKK meeting and shouted "black iz good, white ain't!", after the beatdown, would you feel sorry for me?


    I'm not going to 'flame' you, as I think the point you were trying to make is somewhat valid if not worded extremely poorly... (expect more flames as more people read some of that!)

    To answer your question: No I wouldn't feel AS sorry for you if you did that because you spewed back the same hatred at them. Violence is never an acceptable retaliation but you would be just as guilty. However(and this is where your argument went very sour) Mathew Shepard was just being himself. He did not go around shouting that straight people suck and should go to hell. That's simply not what caused the conflict. It was about their intolerance.. not him trying to start a fight..
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 24, 2008 4:31 AM GMT

    Being really easy to pin point as gay in a town like that...was just the same as doing the example I used. That is why I used it and also why I said he had an obligation to be more prudent.
    Do you think I am as butch as I appear? I'm not, infact I have very queeny tendencies that I supress because of where I am as to spare myself undue pain and suffering. Or in my case, spare anyone who would have issue with me, undue pain and suffering
  • cacti

    Posts: 273

    Feb 24, 2008 7:46 AM GMT
    No, sorry.. being obviously gay is not at all the same as using argumentative hate speech towards someone. They may cause the same effect, but how can you really equate the two?

    By doing that you are excusing a part of their actions, which is, quite frankly, a bit offensive.

    I don't know you, nor would I assume anything about your demeanor based on your photos. And I'm sure you've gone through a lot growing up in a small town(as I have), but I still think you're way off base.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 24, 2008 10:04 AM GMT
    Lawrence King, must remember that name.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Feb 24, 2008 2:12 PM GMT
    Here is a case in point where an idea is injected and maybe not explained in the most effective way to convey ideas that.... do make sense.. but are stated in a way that would be construed as offensive to the reader. The result: Squabbling!

    Let me say what happened to Lawrence was horrible and I am not knowledgeable about the situation, who the kid was, how he came across or how he was killed, so I can only say that if he was killed because he was gay, its awful.

    Now as far as Guilty Gear comments: What Guilty said was really this (and I'll change what he said slightly and in a different way):

    Matthew Shepherd was ahead of his time. He related to others in an atmosphere that wasn't ready for him.
    Many of the people in that part of the country viewed him as perhaps "radical", "inappropriate"... but certainly with a different way of looking at life (Guilty's point). Many people in rural America see life very differently than others who may be advancing a personal cause or a lifestyle choice.

    Look at anything.. back to the first decade of the 1900's when women wanted to vote... or most certainly the 1960's. How did many blacks view Dr. Martin Luther King? And what about whites in the rural south? And what happened to Dr. King?

    I had a recent thread about seeing a license plate in Wichita that read "Gay Boy"... I was curious to say the least. One well thought response by "Shawn TO" was, "I hope he has good car insurance" (to paraphrase). The point is the same. This action was ahead of where many people's comfort levels lie. The result may not be positive.

    Now finally: Does this behavior warrant being hurt or killed.. Absolutely not! Never.. but what Guilty was saying is they took action that led to their own demise.

    Now what wasn't said: If we DIDN'T push the envelope.. if Dr. King didn't do what he did... where would our society be today? Where would gay interests be today if we didn't push "responsible gay issues"?
    Of course in this case, one could debate whether what Matthew Shepherd did was to advance the gay cause or not. It most certainly brought attention to gays, gay rights, gay suffering and unfairness.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 24, 2008 3:04 PM GMT
    GuiltyGear said

    Anyone like Mathew Shepherd, who was like a walking PRIDE poster, I can only have marginal pity for.
    Harsh yes, but if I walked into the middle of a KKK meeting and shouted "black iz good, white ain't!", after the beatdown, would you feel sorry for me?

    I sort of get what you're saying, even though it's poorly worded. However, there are some flaws. Matthew Shepherd did not invite what happened to him. Your likening it to your going to a KKK meeting is different as you are being provocational and confrontational. Also, the line of thinking that you are taking seems to me to be along the lines of "blame the rapee for the rape," which I think is a bit flawed.

    olden said
    in six years when he is transferred to an adult facility, the killer will get to know what it is like to be a bottom.


    I also disagree with this statement. It is quite ok to be outraged at the situation, but prison rape is no laughing matter, and it's not something I would wish on anyone. Furthermore, perpetuating violence with more violence is in my experience not a very effective means at affecting change. I think that this case, being tried as a hate crime, brings up the larger question of... if someone can be tried for a hate crime against a gay person, why are there no provisions in government protecting the gay population from discrimination as there are for other minority groups?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 24, 2008 3:04 PM GMT
    Wow.. I'm sad to see there are still people basically blaming the victim here (no matter how nicely you veil it). That's like saying a women deserves to be raped because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    People can't hide who they are nor should they be forced to in order to be afforded the simple right of being able to exist without having violence perpetrated against them. I happen to be lucky that I have a masculine demeanor but I do know many men who could not fake it if they tried nor should they have to. I think this is a very dangerous road to travel and only empowers and emboldens those who commit violence against others who are different.

    I will 100% agree with HndSmKansan that without these people who stand out and push the envelope, our society would not be as advanced as it is today in tolerating differences in others, though we have much further to go. These people are pioneers and heroes in my book. I wish I could be as brave as these people are and/or were.


  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 24, 2008 5:39 PM GMT
    I think you people are getting mixed up what is fair to what is realistic in relation to one's surroundings. If you live in a small town and even worse, a rural town, you're rights take abuse for it. Suddenly, a Mathew Shepherd is not entitled to the same right to be "openly gay" even if it is his naturally predisposition to be such!
    This has been my point all along. And I make it because I have experience on the issue.

    ANALYZE THIS: I like to jog...a very innocent (normal) action, right? Not in this small town it itn't, noone jogs.And because of that, doing so makes me different and the target of unprovoked ire. I kidd you not, sometime, when I am out jogging...people will honk at me, roll down their window and scream at me "What the fuck are you doin!"...."run! run! run!"..."loser!" They will sometime swing the car in a menacing manner and if not that, stare in a menacing manner.

    Folks, if this is their reaction to a jogger, could you imagine their reaction to an openly gay person? Lucky for you I have another example. When I went to Highschool, an openly gay boy decided to rage against the machine by wearing drag to school...he was surrounded by a crowd of children, one was his own cousin, and taunted until the teachers and security arrived to "save" him. He was practically tackled by security and after he was escorted off the premices, a teacher was heard saying "There will be no fags in my school."

    Unfair, right, but who you gonna tell it's unfair? This is THEIR town; they make the rules. You could complain to the principal: he might be bigoted too....you could tell the Police Chief: also might be bigoted...head of security.....fire chief....on down the line, get my drift?

    In light of such circumstances, how prudent is it to be openly gay against odds like that? Yes, by all means if you want to revolutionize the rural town you live in, but alas, Martin Luther King sure didn't do it alone. I can count on my hand how man openly gay men I see in this town who don't try to cover it. Hardly enough for an appropriate sit-in at Joe Joe's Truckstop Bar n Grill, LOL. Now, When you analyze what I orginally said, expunge all sense of fairness from it and then tell me if it still outrages you.


  • DrStorm

    Posts: 185

    Feb 24, 2008 5:53 PM GMT
    "GuiltyGear" could not be more correct.

    AND you don't need to live in a small town!!!

    I had the same abuse when I lived in a TAMPA, FLORIDUH. My ex and I are both triathletes and we were screamed and hurled homophobic insults such as "fucking fagots" on numerous occasions when were were either out running or biking topless when the heat index temps were in excess of 100F - crap - we were NOT holding hands...we were just running or biking!!!! AND THIS in a city of over a MILLION people.

    PEACE

    daWeatherMan
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 24, 2008 6:00 PM GMT
    Something like that just happened here. No guns were involved, but this guy got jumped outside of a gay bar.. these dudes drove up started callin him fag, and some other stuff. One of the dudes got out and punched him in the temple... was hard enough to kill him. However, SC being the bible belt, he didn't get charged with a hate-crime.. just a involuntary manslaughter charge... bull shit! The wold isn't getting better, they are just hidint it more and more.. this shit happens everyday.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 24, 2008 6:02 PM GMT
    this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard.

    you are saying, no matter how you say it, that people shouldn't be themselves, because of their social status in their community, for fear of their life.

    it's called humanity, decency and respect. just because you're poor and uneducated doesn't give you the right to spew hatred. where are we?

    express who you are, jog down the street, sit in front of the bus - stand up against the oppressors, this is your right as a human being

    they win with fear and they don't deserve to win. stop hiding and stop feeding the hate
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 24, 2008 6:09 PM GMT
    GG I respect your right to your opinion as well as your right to post it to the forum, so by all means keep it coming. I just can't get on board with it.

    I'm very sorry that you've experienced such violence in your lifetime that you feel it necessary for your survival to go with the flow. There are many people that would rather not make waves so that they are not attacked, me included, but that doesn't mean it's right.

    If people do not stand up and challenge the idiots and bigots that force us to live life the way THEY want us to, things will continue on as status quo and the idiots win the war. I am grateful that the angry queens and lesbians at Stonewall did not feel that way, that Rosa Parks did not feel that way, that Larry Kramer did not feel that way and that Matthew Shepherd did not feel that way. I applaud them for their courage because they have forever changed all of our lives for the better.

    Matthew met with an unfortunate end because of his desire to live life out in the open but I do not blame him for his end, I blame the animals that feel this is an appropriate response to individuals who dare to be different. When the time comes and I am put in the situation where I need to put aside my fears in order to stand up against injustice I hope I will be able to do so.

    Sorry my friend, I think you are an intelligent man but I can't get behind blaming the victims for the acts of small minded people.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 24, 2008 6:10 PM GMT
    Dr.Storm, this is off topic and it sounds ridiculous even when I say it, but I think as the number of unathletic , slovenly, loutish people grow in this country, athletic people will become more and more the object of hate and jealousy. I think health conscious people are ALREADY a small majority in America. A small majority, like a gay or black man! Afterall, they still buy magazines with buff athletes on the cover and pay millions to see them play in stadiums, how backward people are. Again, expunge the concept of fairness from your minds.

    Creyente, I don't go with the flow. I still date men, I still listen to my Funny Girl Soundtrack almost everynight, still dress as tailored and together as possible, but I do fly under the radar. I'd love to be more open, but can't.

    Laurence King and Mathew Shepherd cannot be compared to activists. They were not trying to make a statement like Rosa Parks or the lebians at Stonewall. I would never feel sorry for an activist that died, because their deaths affect change and lead to the fullfillment of their motives.

    However, too the best of my knowledge, Mathew Shepherd or Laurance King where not activist, non conformist maybe that met with an unfortunate end. And now that they are dead, they will be remembered as victims, not activists. They were normal guys and that you are trying to re-direct their death towards the path of activism to somehow provide it with more meaning is admirable, but that's not what happened is it?

    In reality, their deaths will probably not lead to any change in the towns they died in. Had they been activist, different story.