Losing sight of fairness?

  • tazzari

    Posts: 2937

    Aug 30, 2010 11:11 PM GMT
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2010/aug/30/barack-obama-glenn-beck
  • imperator

    Posts: 626

    Aug 31, 2010 12:57 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said[...]
    Civil rights is about expanding the "community" or "collective" or "village" and not about individuals?

    Huh?????



    Why is it that whenever some right-wing folk say "community" (so often in derisive quotations, too) they always have to couple it with "or collective?" Is this anything more than a crass attempt to evoke fear of... what... the Soviets? The Borg?

    For all your subtly implied scorn for "communities," you do realise that you're kinda' sorta' part of one, right? If you partake of the benefits of other people's labours-- say, by driving on roads that someone else paved, or using the interwebz that someone else created, or eating food that someone else produced-- then you are participating in a "community," and you should really take a strong interest in its well-being. Because if the "community"-hating kooks get their way and "communal" governance gets stripped down to the point where it doesn't have the resources to effectively serve "the collective" anymore (ie. no tax-funded public infrastructure, police, fire department, etc) then I'm pretty sure that leaves us living in Thunderdome, with savages in rubber-tire-armour murdering us for the contents of our gas tanks. Maybe that appeals to your inner rugged individualist, but most people I know would rather pay some taxes in order the enjoy the fruits of modern civilisation. icon_confused.gif
  • rioriz

    Posts: 1056

    Aug 31, 2010 1:00 AM GMT
    My good friend was at the rally (surprise he's Latino!) and said it was a wonderful, spiritual experience. I think Beck can bring a lot of flack on himself but in this sense, and from watching the live videos, this seemed like a very positive event. Wish I could've went
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Aug 31, 2010 3:27 AM GMT
    imperator said
    southbeach1500 said[...]
    Civil rights is about expanding the "community" or "collective" or "village" and not about individuals?

    Huh?????



    Why is it that whenever some right-wing folk say "community" (so often in derisive quotations, too) they always have to couple it with "or collective?" Is this anything more than a crass attempt to evoke fear of... what... the Soviets? The Borg?

    For all your subtly implied scorn for "communities," you do realise that you're kinda' sorta' part of one, right? If you partake of the benefits of other people's labours-- say, by driving on roads that someone else paved, or using the interwebz that someone else created, or eating food that someone else produced-- then you are participating in a "community," and you should really take a strong interest in its well-being. Because if the "community"-hating kooks get their way and "communal" governance gets stripped down to the point where it doesn't have the resources to effectively serve "the collective" anymore (ie. no tax-funded public infrastructure, police, fire department, etc) then I'm pretty sure that leaves us living in Thunderdome, with savages in rubber-tire-armour murdering us for the contents of our gas tanks. Maybe that appeals to your inner rugged individualist, but most people I know would rather pay some taxes in order the enjoy the fruits of modern civilisation. icon_confused.gif





    Good speech !
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    Aug 31, 2010 3:30 AM GMT
    imperator said
    southbeach1500 said[...]
    Civil rights is about expanding the "community" or "collective" or "village" and not about individuals?

    Huh?????



    Why is it that whenever some right-wing folk say "community" (so often in derisive quotations, too) they always have to couple it with "or collective?" Is this anything more than a crass attempt to evoke fear of... what... the Soviets? The Borg?

    For all your subtly implied scorn for "communities," you do realise that you're kinda' sorta' part of one, right? If you partake of the benefits of other people's labours-- say, by driving on roads that someone else paved, or using the interwebz that someone else created, or eating food that someone else produced-- then you are participating in a "community," and you should really take a strong interest in its well-being. Because if the "community"-hating kooks get their way and "communal" governance gets stripped down to the point where it doesn't have the resources to effectively serve "the collective" anymore (ie. no tax-funded public infrastructure, police, fire department, etc) then I'm pretty sure that leaves us living in Thunderdome, with savages in rubber-tire-armour murdering us for the contents of our gas tanks. Maybe that appeals to your inner rugged individualist, but most people I know would rather pay some taxes in order the enjoy the fruits of modern civilisation. icon_confused.gif


    AMEN!
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    Aug 31, 2010 3:44 AM GMT
    imperator said
    southbeach1500 said[...]
    Civil rights is about expanding the "community" or "collective" or "village" and not about individuals?

    Huh?????



    Why is it that whenever some right-wing folk say "community" (so often in derisive quotations, too) they always have to couple it with "or collective?" Is this anything more than a crass attempt to evoke fear of... what... the Soviets? The Borg?

    For all your subtly implied scorn for "communities," you do realise that you're kinda' sorta' part of one, right? If you partake of the benefits of other people's labours-- say, by driving on roads that someone else paved, or using the interwebz that someone else created, or eating food that someone else produced-- then you are participating in a "community," and you should really take a strong interest in its well-being. Because if the "community"-hating kooks get their way and "communal" governance gets stripped down to the point where it doesn't have the resources to effectively serve "the collective" anymore (ie. no tax-funded public infrastructure, police, fire department, etc) then I'm pretty sure that leaves us living in Thunderdome, with savages in rubber-tire-armour murdering us for the contents of our gas tanks. Maybe that appeals to your inner rugged individualist, but most people I know would rather pay some taxes in order the enjoy the fruits of modern civilisation. icon_confused.gif


    He assumes he will continue to have the same privileges he has now. Because he thinks he deserves them, as opposed to understanding where they came from.
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2937

    Aug 31, 2010 3:36 PM GMT
    Hey, why should I have to pay to put out my neighbor's fire? It's not MY fire! And I'm sure not going to pay for the part of the road I don't drive on! icon_twisted.gif



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    Aug 31, 2010 3:43 PM GMT
    the most telling sentence in the article:

    Obama┬┤s position is "somewhat moderate position by contemporary standards. For those of you who traffic in such ideas, it's a partial rejection of classic Rawlsian liberalism, which is why it's moderate. But it, too, can be made by opponents to sound like socialism and state coercion, and Obama hasn't had the political skill in office to show people why it isn't."

    For someone so good with words, he has been astoundingly inept in communicating. That was the problem with health care (well apart from his idiotic attempt to be bipartisan. Bama, baby, it was NEVER going to work), and it seems a more widely focussed problem.

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    Aug 31, 2010 4:13 PM GMT
    tazzari saidHey, why should I have to pay to put out my neighbor's fire? It's not MY fire! And I'm sure not going to pay for the part of the road I don't drive on! icon_twisted.gif





    Great Fagmire impersonation!
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    Aug 31, 2010 5:07 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidWhy don't all of you, instead of commenting about my comments about the column, post your own thoughts (if you are capable of forming any besides rants against me)?

    I commented on the columnist's thoughts, as did LostBoy and Rioriz.

    The rest of you are, predictably, making this about me with your stupid "people like you, southbeach" and the rest of the mindless parrots posting about the posts that are critical of me.

    What a bunch of children (and mean ones at that).



    CheeseWithThatWhine-2.5-wid.gif
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    Aug 31, 2010 5:15 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidWhy don't all of you, instead of commenting about my comments about the column, post your own thoughts (if you are capable of forming any besides rants against me)?

    Translation: I like to participate in public (community) forums, but I don't like that it's actually public. I'd rather a moderator (regulator) step in and make sure I don't have to defend my own rants.

    And, boo hoo.
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    Aug 31, 2010 5:50 PM GMT
    Let me try put in my honest two cents:

    It has occurred to me more than once that western world people take the stability of their country for granted, as does this Southern woman in the article.

    As far out as the hardware store in Mogadishu example might seem to be, it IS actually the comparison you have to make. All those basics need not only be provided by the government, but also maintained and guarded.

    Because regardless of community - taking Mogadishu and, say, Khandahar as an example, 99,9% of the community is of the same religion which would count for something you might think - people are obviously not capable of regulating these things themselves while at the same time adhering to the basic rights we all agree upon (equality for the law, to name one).

    In the situation where there's no government interference you end up with cliques or gangs or clans calling the shots.

    I kinda forgot the point I was going to make. The only thing that pops in my head is that people in general are idiots icon_neutral.gif
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    Aug 31, 2010 5:55 PM GMT
    Oh, yea, mutual civic obligation. That was the point.

    I think that sense of duty died out decades ago. In western european countries that mutual obligation is enforced by back breaking taxation on everybody to keep some people perpetually out of work, and in the US it's going the other way, and it's every man for himself.

    Cause at the end of the day, people are selfish uncivilized barbarians, unless we force them otherwise. Glenn Beck is arguing in favour of our right to be barbarians.
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    Aug 31, 2010 6:02 PM GMT
    Tazo995 said
    It has occurred to me more than once that western world people take the stability of their country for granted, as does this Southern woman in the article.


    This.

    Not just stability, but infrastructure and safety across a very wide range of things.