Hamas murders 4 people, including 2 women, 1 of whom was pregnant

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    Sep 01, 2010 3:16 PM GMT
    http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=186614

    The four were two couples – one aged 25 and the other 40. One of the women was pregnant. According to eyewitness reports, the terrorists succeeded in hitting the passengers in their initial fire but then approached the car and shot the occupants at close range.

    "When we arrived on the scene, all four doors of the car were open and four bodies were strewn on the road," Magen David Adom paramedic Guy Ronen told The Jerusalem Post. "We saw that the vital organs had been struck by a very large number of bullets, and that there was no chance of saving their lives," he added.

    In response to Tuesday night's shooting attack which killed four Israelis near Kiryat Arba, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said, “This is very grave incident. The IDF and Israeli security forces will do everything they can to capture the murderers. Israel will not allow terrorists to lift their heads and will exact a price from the murderers and those who sent them."

    Barak added that the attack "is likely an attempt by the low-life terrorists to prevent the diplomatic process and to hurt the chances of the talks opening in Washington.”

    Hamas military wing spokesman Abu Obeida told The Associated Press late Tuesday that Hamas carried out the attack.
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    Sep 02, 2010 12:10 AM GMT
    http://www.uknetguide.co.uk/Latest-News/West-Bank-attack-threatens-Middle-East-peace-talks-800048255.html
    United Nations secretary general Ban Ki-Moon described the attack as a "blatant attempt" to derail peace talks, which are due to begin tomorrow (Thursday) in Washington.

    Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu also said that the murders would not go unpunished. Speaking from Washington, he said: "We will not let terror decide where Israelis live or the configuration of our final borders. "These and other issues will be determined in the negotiations for peace that we're conducting, and in these negotiations I will set clearly the security needs that are required precisely to address this kind of terror."

    US secretary of state Hillary Clinton described the murders as "horrific". She told reporters: "The forces of terror and destruction cannot be allowed to continue. "It was one of the reasons why the prime minister is here today, to engage in direct negotiations with those Palestinians who themselves have rejected a path of violence in favour of a path of peace."
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    Sep 02, 2010 2:13 AM GMT
    southbeach> And you are posting this why?
    So that we can all say that Hamas and the Palestinians are uncivilized animals and Israel and the Jews are at the pinnacle of human development?

    Are you saying this is why the plethora of anti-Israel posts are spammed here?
    As if only anti-Israel topics are on-topic here?

    I'm guessing you would know since you started a topic about Israel's allegedly pending bankruptcy.
    (But then you deleted it when you couldn't back it up, just as you deleted your topic about Helen Thomas.)


    Anyone who would generalize from this act (or even from the thousands of such over the last decades) to all Palestinian Arabs would be a racist.

    Only 47% (PCPSR#35) of Palestinian Arabs support such armed attacks while 50% oppose them.
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    Sep 02, 2010 3:08 AM GMT
    Is anyone surprised that sxydrkhair, terrorist sympathizer that he is, attempts to divert from the topic - even without condemning yesterday's Hamas terrorist attack on innocent civilians?
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    Sep 02, 2010 3:53 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidIs anyone surprised that sxydrkhair, terrorist sympathizer that he is, attempts to divert from the topic - even without condemning yesterday's Hamas terrorist attack on innocent civilians?


    Two words: Rachel Corrie.

    I bring up Corrie because the US never once tried to bring justice for one of our citizens who was brutally murdered by the IDF. While there is much gray area in the Israel/Palestinian conflict, what is clear is that Israel's military and economic might dwarfs the Palestinian's and with power comes responsibility, including not bulldozing American citizens.

    I support Israel in general but its policies have taken an extreme rightward turn over the last decade or so. While I do not condone Hamas' violence, they have far fewer means of responding to the crushing oppression and increasing encroachment of West Bank settlers than Israel does.

    Where is your outrage about that? Where is your outrage about the IDF bulldozing entire neighborhoods to find one Hamas member? How would you feel if you home or entire block was razed by military forces looking for one terrorist?

    Until Israel comes to the table with a real desire for a reasonable two-state solution, this violence will continue and more civilians and soldiers on both sides will needlessly lose their lives.
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    Sep 02, 2010 4:34 AM GMT
    Christian73> Two words: Rachel Corrie.

    Two words: off-topic (or is that one?)
    You can educate yourself here:
    http://rachelcorriefacts.org/default.aspx
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the--self--deceit-of-rachel-corrie-11453?page=all

    Anyhow, are you really trying to tit-for-tat an accidental death 7 and a half years ago with the cold-blooded, point-blank, murder of 4 people yesterday?!


    You are just as way off on everything else:

    Christian73> Where is your outrage about the IDF bulldozing entire neighborhoods to find one Hamas member?

    No such thing has ever happened.


    Christian73> I support Israel in general but its policies have taken an extreme rightward turn over the last decade or so.

    Please name those "policies".
    You mean like the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005? (Arab response: a skyrocketing of terrorist attacks.)
    You mean like the construction freeze that's been in place for nearly 10 months? (Arab response: no negotiations.)


    Christian73> While I do not condone Hamas' violence, they have far fewer means of responding to the crushing oppression and increasing encroachment of West Bank settlers than Israel does.

    Congrats, you just condoned terrorism.
    (Though good show on circumventing the "but".)


    Christian73> Until Israel comes to the table with a real desire for a reasonable two-state solution, this violence will continue and more civilians and soldiers on both sides will needlessly lose their lives.

    Israel has been at the table for more than 60 years. Indeed, the Jewish Agency (pre-state authority) accepted the two-state solution in 1923 and again in 1937, and the repartitioning of the Jewish "half" (22%) in 1947. It was the Arabs who violently rejected the UN partition compromise and began the first of many wars.

    1947-1948: Arabs reject compromise and attack Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/960691

    The Arabs rejected peace after failing in their genocidal "war of extermination and a momentous massacre" to "throw the Jews into the sea." Israel was willing to make peace based on UN General Assembly Resolution 194, the Arab parties rejected it and the Arab League issued its infamous "3 NOs": No negotiations, No recognition, No peace.

    After the 1967 war, Israel accepted UNSCR 242. The Arab League rejected it, reiterating its "3 NOs". Egypt became the first Arab country to accept it and make peace with a ready, willing and able Israel (then under it's most right-wing goverment ever). As a result, Egypt (the most populous Arab nation) was expelled from the Arab League).

    Only after the 1990 Gulf War (when Arafat sided with Saddam against his Gulf backers), did the PLO finally (for the first of many times) reject terrorism and give peace a chance. Remember what type of government lead Israel at the time? That's right, the right-wing Shamir government. Which went to Madrid and Oslo and paved the way for the handshake on the White House lawn in 1993.

    It was the following year, 1994, that Hamas gained infamy for its suicide bombings. Not as "resistance" to the "occupation" (as samxr romanticizes - and you appear to above), but to derail the peace process.

    It wasn't Israel that walked out of Clinton's Camp David (saying "no to everything" [Clinton], without as much as a counter-offer despite dozens of proposals). It wasn't Israel but Arafat who re-turned to violence and terrorism (at best to better his negotiating position by demanding a ransom to return to the peace table he had turned his back on). It wasn't Israel who refused to budge at Taba. It wasn't Israel who "burned the olive branch" [Thomas Friedman] after Taba. It isn't Israel who failed to implement the Sharm Agreement, Mitchell Plan, Tenet Agreement or implement the steps required at the on-set of Phase I of the "Roadmap".

    In search of a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict: UNSCR 242, Oslo and Camp David/Taba
    (Or: I support the Clinton COMPROMISE parameters. Do you?!)

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/354843

    It was the Palestinian Arab leadership that walked out of negotiations last year, who attached ridiculous (non-starter) pre-conditions (ransoms) to return to the table (sound familiar?) and who having finally agreed to return to negotiations (under intense pressure from Obama) have already threatened to leave if certain conditions (no longer pre-conditions?) aren't met.

    And then we have this, Hamas' attempt to derail the peace negotiations scheduled to start tomorrow in Washington DC.

    And you, who think you don't condone terrorism but do, encourage them. Because every time Hamas strikes, there are those "useful idiots" (and I say that despite my high regard for you) who rather than unequivocally condemn them become their advocate.
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    Sep 02, 2010 5:49 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidChristian73> Two words: Rachel Corrie.

    Two words: off-topic (or is that one?)
    You can educate yourself here:
    http://rachelcorriefacts.org/default.aspx
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the--self--deceit-of-rachel-corrie-11453?page=all

    Anyhow, are you really trying to tit-for-tat an accidental death 7 and a half years ago with the cold-blooded, point-blank, murder of 4 people yesterday?!


    You are just as way off on everything else:

    Christian73> Where is your outrage about the IDF bulldozing entire neighborhoods to find one Hamas member?

    No such thing has ever happened.


    Christian73> I support Israel in general but its policies have taken an extreme rightward turn over the last decade or so.

    Please name those "policies".
    You mean like the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005? (Arab response: a skyrocketing of terrorist attacks.)
    You mean like the construction freeze that's been in place for nearly 10 months? (Arab response: no negotiations.)


    Christian73> While I do not condone Hamas' violence, they have far fewer means of responding to the crushing oppression and increasing encroachment of West Bank settlers than Israel does.

    Congrats, you just condoned terrorism.
    (Though good show on circumventing the "but".)


    Christian73> Until Israel comes to the table with a real desire for a reasonable two-state solution, this violence will continue and more civilians and soldiers on both sides will needlessly lose their lives.

    Israel has been at the table for more than 60 years. Indeed, the Jewish Agency (pre-state authority) accepted the two-state solution in 1923 and again in 1937, and the repartitioning of the Jewish "half" (22%) in 1947. It was the Arabs who violently rejected the UN partition compromise and began the first of many wars.

    1947-1948: Arabs reject compromise and attack Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/960691

    The Arabs rejected peace after failing in their genocidal "war of extermination and a momentous massacre" to "throw the Jews into the sea." Israel was willing to make peace based on UN General Assembly Resolution 194, the Arab parties rejected it and the Arab League issued its infamous "3 NOs": No negotiations, No recognition, No peace.

    After the 1967 war, Israel accepted UNSCR 242. The Arab League rejected it, reiterating its "3 NOs". Egypt became the first Arab country to accept it and make peace with a ready, willing and able Israel (then under it's most right-wing goverment ever). As a result, Egypt (the most populous Arab nation) was expelled from the Arab League).

    Only after the 1990 Gulf War (when Arafat sided with Saddam against his Gulf backers), did the PLO finally (for the first of many times) reject terrorism and give peace a chance. Remember what type of government lead Israel at the time? That's right, the right-wing Shamir government. Which went to Madrid and Oslo and paved the way for the handshake on the White House lawn in 1993.

    It was the following year, 1994, that Hamas gained infamy for its suicide bombings. Not as "resistance" to the "occupation" (as samxr romanticizes - and you appear to above), but to derail the peace process.

    It wasn't Israel that walked out of Clinton's Camp David (saying "no to everything" [Clinton], without as much as a counter-offer despite dozens of proposals). It wasn't Israel but Arafat who re-turned to violence and terrorism (at best to better his negotiating position by demanding a ransom to return to the peace table he had turned his back on). It wasn't Israel who refused to budge at Taba. It wasn't Israel who "burned the olive branch" [Thomas Friedman] after Taba. It isn't Israel who failed to implement the Sharm Agreement, Mitchell Plan, Tenet Agreement or implement the steps required at the on-set of Phase I of the "Roadmap".

    In search of a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict: UNSCR 242, Oslo and Camp David/Taba
    (Or: I support the Clinton COMPROMISE parameters. Do you?!)

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/354843

    It was the Palestinian Arab leadership that walked out of negotiations last year, who attached ridiculous (non-starter) pre-conditions (ransoms) to return to the table (sound familiar?) and who having finally agreed to return to negotiations (under intense pressure from Obama) have already threatened to leave if certain conditions (no longer pre-conditions?) aren't met.

    And then we have this, Hamas' attempt to derail the peace negotiations scheduled to start tomorrow in Washington DC.

    And you, who think you don't condone terrorism but do, encourage them. Because every time Hamas strikes, there are those "useful idiots" (and I say that despite my high regard for you) who rather than unequivocally condemn them become their advocate.


    Blah, blah, blah. My people have been occupied by the British for decades. Rachel Corrie's death was covered up, and referencing "official Israeli reports" is not going to change my mind.

    You are not an impartial or objective interlocutor when it comes to Israel. You post ONLY anti-Hamas (i.e. Palestinian) posts, and never find fault with anything Israel does. For a long time I was as close to a Zionist as a gentile could get, but Israel's behavior since 2000 changed my views. And while I don't condone Hamas' behavior, as someone whose people remain occupied - though less violently - I can empathize, if not sympathize with oppressed peoples' reaction to their oppressors. The issue is power and responsibility and the very real fact the American foreign policy has been captured by AIPAC.
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    Sep 02, 2010 5:55 AM GMT
    Christian73 said
    I bring up Corrie because the US never once tried to bring justice for one of our citizens who was brutally murdered by the IDF.


    That's because it was due to negligence. IDF didn't murder her. The idiot driving the giant bulldozer or whatever it was didn't see her. Negligent, yes. Culpable, of course. Should he be taken to trial? Definitely. Blame the entire state of Israel as a cold-blooded murderer? No. That's fucking retarded. That's like blaming all Muslims for 9-11.
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    Sep 02, 2010 6:29 AM GMT
    Christian73> Blah, blah, blah.
    ...You are not an impartial or objective interlocutor when it comes to Israel.

    Then you should have an easy time picking apart or countering my arguments.
    Yet you can't.


    Christian73> Rachel Corrie's death was covered up, and referencing "official Israeli reports" is not going to change my mind.

    Why should anyone expect facts to change your mind?
    You did not use logic to arrive at your conclusion, it won't sway you.

    Hey, are you going to also tell us about the one racist Israeli soldier who allegedly emptied his clip into a little Arab girl after she had been killed? Oh, that's right, turns out that soldier not only didn't do that but was himself an Arab. But then, you can't trust those Israeli investigations... right?

    Sounds like you've set up a kangaroo court in your mind where any accusation is gold and any self-defense is rejected.


    Christian73> You post ONLY anti-Hamas (i.e. Palestinian) posts

    Since when does Hamas = Palestinian?!

    Why are you pretending that by bashing, say, Rush Limbaugh and conservative Republicans one is bashing America?


    Christian73> and never find fault with anything Israel does.

    Most of these topics begin with people "finding fault" with "anything" Israel does.

    Why do you only take issue with me on this rather than the virulent anti-Israel posters who are much more one-sided?
    (Again yours appears to be an ad hominem, attacking the person rather than my arguments.)

    Forest and trees, and to date you've mentioned 1 sappling.


    Christian73> Israel's behavior since 2000 changed my views.

    I've already asked you to identify specific Israeli policies and you failed to do so.


    Christian73> while I don't condone Hamas' behavior

    You do. That's already been established. No need to do it again.
    That you "empathize, if not sympathize" with cold blooded murderers of innocents is a disgrace.


    Christian73> The issue is power and responsibility and the very real fact the American foreign policy has been captured by AIPAC.

    Oh, that almost sounds like AIPAC is a modern Elders of Zion, eh?
    One could almost forget that ~80% of Americans with opinions on the subject support Israel, as do their elected representatives.

    The problem isn't AIPAC or American foreign policy. The problem is that historically the Arab parties have been quick to war and slow to peace, rejecting compromise and negotiations, turning to terrorism to exact unilateral consessions as ransoms (even for just resuming negotiations after they walk out of them).

    Since 1993, Israel has allowed the PLO to enter the disputed territories to set up a provisional government authority. It has allowed elections and self-rule. It has withdrawn from all of Gaza and the 42% of Judea & Samaria (formerly Trans/Jordan's so-called "West Bank") - the area where 97% of the Arabs reside. It has agreed to a sovereign and independent Palestinian Arab state on a net 97% of the disputed territories (all except for about 65 square miles primarily inhabited by Jews).

    Tell me one thing the Palestinian Arabs have concretely given up, compromised on, since the peace process began. One thing. Just the other month PA President Abbas refused to even acknowledge that Israel is or will be the Jewish state. (Sounds like he favors a "two-state" sham solution, with both being Arab states.)

    The anti-Israel incitement in the territories continues (e.g., TV "public service" announcements urging children to put down their toys, pick up weapons and follow in the footsteps of Muhammad al Dura and become martyrs; Mickey Mouse and Big Bird like characters teaching hate). Then the leadership uses that as an excuse not to accept compromise (Arafat at Camp David 2000: "I invite you to my funeral" as a way of saying "no" to Clinton). And the leadership incites the "street", etc.

    Even if a final peace agreement is accomplished, 35% of Palestinian Arabs say the fighting should continue. And there's Hamas, and Hizbullah and Syria and Iran.

    But it's so much easier for you to blame 1 tractor driver?!
    (Great post, JakeBenson!)
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    Sep 02, 2010 6:50 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair> If wasn't illegal occupation or illegal settlements on Palestinian land in the first place, none of this will happen.

    There was no "occupation" or "illegal settlements" prior to 1967.
    So why didn't you make peace then?!

    And since when is the ancient Jewish quarter of Jerusalem or Hebron, or the area of Gush Etzion, "Palestinian land'?!


    sxydrkhair> If Israeli settlers are willing to live side by side with Palestinians instead of Jewish only settlements, then none of this will happen.

    Are you forgetting that Jews lived on this land until they were ALL ethnically cleansed during the Arab invasion of 1948?
    We know wasn't willing to live "side by side".

    The "settlements" aren't "Jewish only" (most recently we learned that a gay Palestinian Arab found shelter in a "settlement" after his family threatened to kill him and he had no where else to turn for protection - no relief being possible in the PA).

    Did it ever occur to you that every Arab village is "Arab only"?
    How racist is that?!


    sxydrkhair> I am pointing out that many Palestinians were being murdered in cold-blooded by your people too.

    According to Btselem, between 9/29/2000 to 12/26/2008, a total of 45 Arabs were killed by Israel civilians - and most of these were in cases of self-defense. Very few Arabs have been "murdered in cold-blood" by Israelis.

    In contrast, during that same period, 731 Israeli civilians and 54 foreign nationals were murdered in cold blood by Palestinian Arab terrorists. Another 609 Palestinian Arabs were killed by Palestinian Arabs.


    Indeed, Samxr's pathology is such that he thinks pregnant women can be (like the truth) sacrificed for the cause. For him, it's not about human lives, it's about using deaths for propaganda and demonization, it's just tit-for-tat. (And never mind if in one case the death of a pregnant woman is unintended and not celebrated, while in cases like the one discussed in this topic it is perpetrated in cold blood and celebrated by roughly half the population.)

    It's even more egregious when you consider that the terrorist attack perpetrated yesterday by Hamas was intended not to "resist" the Israeli "occupation" (as terrorist sympathizers and apologists like samxr romanticize) but to derail the renewed peace negotiations scheduled to start in Washington DC tomorrow.

    Remember those talks that samxr wouldn't say if he supports?
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/354843#54845_1104021_name

    For samxr it's all about being able to whine about being the "victim".
    Even if the rest of the world has come to learn that he is the victim of his own intransigence and failed policies.
    Not just historically (never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity), but right up to the present.
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    Sep 02, 2010 12:33 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidChristian73> Blah, blah, blah.
    ...You are not an impartial or objective interlocutor when it comes to Israel.

    Then you should have an easy time picking apart or countering my arguments.
    Yet you can't.


    Christian73> Rachel Corrie's death was covered up, and referencing "official Israeli reports" is not going to change my mind.

    Why should anyone expect facts to change your mind?
    You did not use logic to arrive at your conclusion, it won't sway you.

    Hey, are you going to also tell us about the one racist Israeli soldier who allegedly emptied his clip into a little Arab girl after she had been killed? Oh, that's right, turns out that soldier not only didn't do that but was himself an Arab. But then, you can't trust those Israeli investigations... right?

    Sounds like you've set up a kangaroo court in your mind where any accusation is gold and any self-defense is rejected.


    Christian73> You post ONLY anti-Hamas (i.e. Palestinian) posts

    Since when does Hamas = Palestinian?!

    Why are you pretending that by bashing, say, Rush Limbaugh and conservative Republicans one is bashing America?


    Christian73> and never find fault with anything Israel does.

    Most of these topics begin with people "finding fault" with "anything" Israel does.

    Why do you only take issue with me on this rather than the virulent anti-Israel posters who are much more one-sided?
    (Again yours appears to be an ad hominem, attacking the person rather than my arguments.)

    Forest and trees, and to date you've mentioned 1 sappling.


    Christian73> Israel's behavior since 2000 changed my views.

    I've already asked you to identify specific Israeli policies and you failed to do so.


    Christian73> while I don't condone Hamas' behavior

    You do. That's already been established. No need to do it again.
    That you "empathize, if not sympathize" with cold blooded murderers of innocents is a disgrace.


    Christian73> The issue is power and responsibility and the very real fact the American foreign policy has been captured by AIPAC.

    Oh, that almost sounds like AIPAC is a modern Elders of Zion, eh?
    One could almost forget that ~80% of Americans with opinions on the subject support Israel, as do their elected representatives.

    The problem isn't AIPAC or American foreign policy. The problem is that historically the Arab parties have been quick to war and slow to peace, rejecting compromise and negotiations, turning to terrorism to exact unilateral consessions as ransoms (even for just resuming negotiations after they walk out of them).

    Since 1993, Israel has allowed the PLO to enter the disputed territories to set up a provisional government authority. It has allowed elections and self-rule. It has withdrawn from all of Gaza and the 42% of Judea & Samaria (formerly Trans/Jordan's so-called "West Bank") - the area where 97% of the Arabs reside. It has agreed to a sovereign and independent Palestinian Arab state on a net 97% of the disputed territories (all except for about 65 square miles primarily inhabited by Jews).

    Tell me one thing the Palestinian Arabs have concretely given up, compromised on, since the peace process began. One thing. Just the other month PA President Abbas refused to even acknowledge that Israel is or will be the Jewish state. (Sounds like he favors a "two-state" sham solution, with both being Arab states.)

    The anti-Israel incitement in the territories continues (e.g., TV "public service" announcements urging children to put down their toys, pick up weapons and follow in the footsteps of Muhammad al Dura and become martyrs; Mickey Mouse and Big Bird like characters teaching hate). Then the leadership uses that as an excuse not to accept compromise (Arafat at Camp David 2000: "I invite you to my funeral" as a way of saying "no" to Clinton). And the leadership incites the "street", etc.

    Even if a final peace agreement is accomplished, 35% of Palestinian Arabs say the fighting should continue. And there's Hamas, and Hizbullah and Syria and Iran.

    But it's so much easier for you to blame 1 tractor driver?!
    (Great post, JakeBenson!)


    C -

    It's not that I CAN'T point to specific policies, it's that I'm not interested in going point-for-point with you. I've seen enough of your threads (and this is no exception) to know that you will just posts endless paragraphs and links to overwhelm anyone who disagrees with you.

  • ZacktheMan

    Posts: 340

    Sep 02, 2010 2:20 PM GMT
    I can not believe that there are gays on this forum that are pro-muslim. Homosexuality is not only banned by Islam, its' prime punishment is by Capital punishment.

    According to the International Lesbian and Gay Association ILGA there are at least seven countries today which still retain capital punishment for homosexuality. All are predominately Muslim countries. They are: Afghanistan, Iran, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Yemen. The situation with regard to the United Arab Emirates (UAE) is unclear.

    The Koran clearly states that the punishment for homosexuality is death:

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Islam

    "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Trans topics and Islam are influenced by the rulings prescribed by the Qur'an and the teachings of the Islamic Prophet Muhammed. The mainstream interpretation of Qur'anic verses and hadith condemn sexual acts between members of the same sex. In this, Islam resembles other Abrahamic religions such as Judaism and Christianity.

    "The Qur'an cites the story of the "people of Lot" (also known as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah), destroyed by the wrath of Allah because they engaged in "lustful" carnal acts between men.

    "Eminent scholars of Islam, such as Sheikh ul-Islam Imam Malik, and Imam Shafi amongst others, ruled that Islam disallowed homosexuality and ordained capital punishment for a person guilty of it.[1]


    "The legal punishment for sodomy has varied among juristic schools: some prescribe capital punishment; while other prescribe a milder discretionary punishment. Homosexual activity is a crime and forbidden in most Muslim-majority countries. In some relatively secular Muslim-majority countries such as Indonesia,[2] Jordan and Turkey this is not the case."

    But as time went by, Muslim nobles, particular the Ottoman Turks, revised the meaning for homosexuality. It is okay for a muslim man to fuck or be sucked by a non-muslim male (regardless of their age), but it is a capital offense for a muslim man to be fucked by, or suck, another male, muslim or non-muslim. They are allowed under Islam to give, but not receive. Has anyone ever seen a porno movie where the muslim man gets fucked by a non-muslim or even another muslim man, if he did he would be subject to Capital punishment under Islam.

    When Mehmed II conquered Constantinople in 1453, He gathered the remaining Christian nobles and met with them in a friendly manner. One of the Christian Nobles had a 12 year old son whom Mehmed saw was startlingly handsome. Mehmed requested the father to hand over his som that Mehmed may have sex with the boy. Both the father and boy were devout Christians and refused Mehmet's request, upon which he had the father and son publically beheaded for denying his sexual request.

    It was common practice that when Muslims conquered foreign lands, foreign born youths were routinely separated from parents, homeland, and the Christian faith. They were made slaves and the 'good looking ones' were sorted out for service to high ranking muslims, that service included sexual service.

    This may sound like some kind of gay fantasy, but it is simply very wrong from any point of view.
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    Sep 02, 2010 4:06 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Caesarea4 saidIs anyone surprised that sxydrkhair, terrorist sympathizer that he is, attempts to divert from the topic - even without condemning yesterday's Hamas terrorist attack on innocent civilians?

    If someone doesn't march in lockstep support of Israel, they are automatically labelled a "terrorist sympathizer" huh? Kind of like on here when somebody isn't a Democrat, they are labelled a Republican. icon_rolleyes.gif


    Finally, we have something in common! LOL
  • ZacktheMan

    Posts: 340

    Sep 02, 2010 9:13 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidNobody being pro-Muslim here... It is about good morality and what Israel had done in the past was wrong. Even today what they are doing to the Palestinians. If this article was about Israeli settler killing two Palestinian civilians, nobody or anybody take this seriously. Not even on American media.

    You know there are Palestinian Christians are suffering under the Israeli ILLEGAL occupation right?

    Caesarea4 want to make this whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict like Muslims v.s. Jews. This have nothing to do with religions in the Palestinian- Israeli conflict. It is more about lands and human rights. Many Jews are against illegal settlements, but Caesarea4 is not. Caesarea4 is being hypocrite this whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He see himself as "always right type of guy" (think highly of himself) saying Israel is only victims and Palestinians are bad guys. That what brainwashed people thinking Palestinians are evil. Yet nobody see what Israel is doing to the Palestinians over 60 years.


    To begin with, the Jewish occupation is not illegal. They lived in Israel since 1400 BC, and even when the Muslims took over Israel the land by vicious slaughter in the 7th century. Jews have been living in their homeland ever since, subjects of their conquerors, and persecuted. Palestine was a barren land with a few populated cities. Jerusalem was a Holy place for All 3 Major monotheists religions., 3,400 years for the Jews, 1,950 for Christians, and
    1,350 years for Islam.

    On November 29, 1947 the UN passed UN resolution #181 providing for a partition of Palestine to establish a Jewish Nation, meeting the required two thirds vote of the UN General Assembly. All that was left to make Israel a nation were the five votes of the five nations that had veto power. Of the 5 nations, only the US and the USSR were with-holding their vote on the matter.

    On May 14, 1948, on the day in which the British Mandate over a Palestine expired, the Jewish People's Council gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum, and approved the following proclamation, declaring the establishment of the State of Israel. The new state was recognized that night by the United States President Truman, and three days later by the USSR. At this time, The United Nations Special Committee On Palestine approved of the Partition of Palestine to establish a Jewish State.

    Thus Israel is a legally established nation. In 1948, 5 of the surrounding Arab Nations illegally went to war against Israel and against all odds, Israel rebuffed their attack on their legally established nation.

    You should not be so surprised, as God clearly authorized the Jewish diaspora through out the world, and kept His promise of their return to Israel after their punishments required under the Mosaic Covenant were completed. I would not bet against Israel losing their land. Yesteryear's Biblical prophecies have been today's news stories ever since 1947.

    BTW, Palestine was wasteland for centuries with low population prior to the establishment of Israel by the UN. The Jews turned their portion of this wasteland into a prosperous and flourishing green State.

    We are very close to the time of the great clearing.
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Sep 02, 2010 10:52 PM GMT
    I have a great idea for a peace process.

    A) Evacuate all Israelis from the West Bank
    B) Bomb everyone left in the West Bank
    C) Return Israelis to the West Bank
    D) Enjoy the peace

    Violence is the only thing that Israel's neighbors seem to understand.
  • ZacktheMan

    Posts: 340

    Sep 03, 2010 3:30 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair said Zack, Israeli Occupation is illegal. They've violated so many UN resolutions. The Israeli apartheid wall, Israeli settlements, and checkpoints are illegal.


    Jews Against the OccupationPalestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.
    General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948


    Yes they do, and Israel allowed them to return. Some did return to their homes in Israel, but many were kept imprisoned in camps just outside the borders of Israel by Muslim activist who were determined to keep their efforts to wipe out the Jews alive. Those who return to Israel or never left their homes in Israel were not only living alongside the Jews, but the Jews and these Muslims got along very well and they prospered under Israeli rule.

    The Palestinians that were not permitted to leave their camps to return to Israel, nor were they allowed to move to other Muslim countries, but were enforceable kept hostage in the camps by the Jihadists. It has long been a principle of Islam never to give back any land that they conquered from non-Muslims.

    By the early 1960's these camps became breeding grounds for hate, terrorism, and anti-Israeli propaganda. In 1964, the PLO was created. In 1965 they launched 35 terrorists attacks on Israel, and 41 in 1965.Behind these attacks were Syria and Egypt. Both wished to undermine King Hussein of Jordan who had strong ties with the United States and who was not anti-Israeli. Yasser Arafat of the Fatah Party soon took over the PLO and he authorized the assassination of any Arab living in Israel who are friendly toward the Israel.


    sxydrkhair said"Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."

    Israel's occupation of Palestine is Illegal.
    Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967


    This ruling only applied to the Lands Israel took during the 6 Day War, which included East Jerusalem. Egypt and Syria, and the PLO launched an attack against Israel. King Hussein of Jordan entered the war against Israel based upon faulty Info supplied deceptively by Egypt. The three Islam nations lost the war in 6 days, and the size of Israel expanded from 8.000 square mile to 26,000 square miles.

    UN Security Council Resolution 242 was established a formula for Arab-Israeli peace whereby Israel would withdraw from territories occupied in the war in exchange for peace with its neighbors. This resolution has served as the basis for peace negotiations from that time on.

    [quote][cite]sxydrkhair said[/cite] Calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied in the war that year and "the acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

    Israel held on to the West Bank and East Jerusalem and returned all other lands taken. Israel hoped to negotiate a true peace settlement with their Arab Neighbors in return of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The Arab nations refused to enter into any such negotiation with Israel. However, All Arab Citizens were treated very fairly and well by the Israelis, the Islamic Holy Places were put in charge of a Muslim Council,

    [quote][cite]sxydrkhair said[/cite]Israel's settlements in Palestine are Illegal.
    Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979

    "Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East."

    Israel has capitulated to many such demands, returning the Sinai Peninsula, the Golan Heights, the gaza strip, and for all there cooperation they never received any peace offerings from the double crossing, hateful Arab-terrorists. Of course many Arabs in the land were not terrorists, but these would be severely targeted for punishment if they showed any sympathy toward Israel. Meanwhile, Palestinian Children were taught at a very early age to hate the Jews and kill the Jews. Even the cartoons they watch carried home this lesson to the Arab Children.

    And despite your last false claim, the Palestinians in Israel and the camps were not descendant from the Jews. A truly remarkable claim by you.

    {Delete remainder]

    Come on, anyone paying attention knows that Israel has bent over backwards time and again to make peace with the surrounding Arabs and the Muslims living within Israeli Borders. The terrorist Arabs have control and will settle for nothing else short of total obliteration of Israel.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 03, 2010 4:37 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair> This message is between me and Zack. Caesarea4, stay out of it.

    Sorry, honey, but when you BS, I'm going to call it out.
    Point by point.
    Until you stop BSing in public.

    SDH> They've violated so many UN resolutions

    S1. These are highly partisan and non-binding General Assembly resolutions.

    S2. It is the Arab parties that are in violation of binding Security Council resolutions.


    S3A. That sxydrkhair continues to quote organizations such as "Jews against the Occupation" exposes his pathology.
    S3B. They aren't authorities, rather it's like quoting allegedly "cured homosexuals".
    In reality, every point they make is laughable.

    SDH> "Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.
    General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948"

    S4A. Except that UNGAR 194 didn't require that they "return", providing the alternatives of "resettlement".
    S4B. UNGAR 194, with refugees being one point of a peace plan, was abandoned because it was rejected by the Arab parites (who opposed peace).
    S4C. UNGAR 194 is not legally binding (so even if it did establish a "right to return", which it doesn't, it wouldn't).


    SDH> "Israel's occupation of Palestine is Illegal.
    Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967"

    S5A. This is actually hilarious given that UNSCR 242 established the "land for peace" formula, not the "peace for land" formula.
    S5B. UNSCR 242 does NOT require an immediate, unilateral or even full Israeli withdrawal.
    S5C. To the contrary, it authorizes Israel to hold these disputed territories until a negotiated withdrawal after peace is established.


    SDH> the present-day Palestinians are the descendants of the ancient Jews

    S6. Complete BS, as sxydrkhair's own sources (when he isn't cherry-picking) have shown. See:

    Arabs are not indigenous to Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/979648


    SDH> ...1948...

    S7. Reality: 1947-1948: Arabs reject compromise and attack Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/960691


    SDH> Palestine before 1948

    S8A. It's funny, because most of the photos are from just before 1948, i.e. British Mandate Palestine.
    S8B. The last third shows Jaffa, a town that was in decline until the establishment of Tel Aviv.
    S8C. There's little of "Arab Palestine" to be seen. The middle third shows the same shots of Haifa from different views.
    S8D. The rail station, port and industry? Built by British and Jewish development.
    S8E. Between the World Wars, the Arab population of Haifa tripled, the British even importing Arab workers from Syria.
    S8F. But in samxr's false narrative, all the Arabs were "Palestinian" and not Arabs and had lived here for billions of years.

    SDH> wasteland?

    S9. Yes, prior to Jewish development in the 2nd half of the 20th century, "Palestine" (then the Latin/European name for the Land of Israel, not any existing Turkish let alone Arab jurisdiction or demographic entity) was a backwater of the decaying Ottoman Empire, with a scant and declining population. One traveller after another described it as wasteland. There is sufficient material on this for it to be its own forum topic - coming soon to an RJ near you.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 03, 2010 6:55 AM GMT
    Hilarious. Unable to support any point on which he was challenged (S1-S9 above), samxr simply continues the stream of lies-for-the-cause.

    SDH> Do you know majority of Palestinian Christians are found outside of their countries because of Israeli brutality occupation?

    S10. How many countries do "Palestinian Christians" have?
    Or are you saying that they share something with Egyptian, Lebanese and Iraqi Arab Christians, which is oppression by their Muslim brethren?

    S11. Indeed, of all the states mentioned, Israel is the only one with an INCREASING Christian population.

    S12. In eastern Jerusalem between 1948-1967 (then under Arab rule), the Christian population dropped by 50%.
    S13. In Gaza since Israel withdrew, the Christian population has dropped by at least half.
    S14. Even in Bethlehem, the Christian population has dropped more in 10+ years under PA rule than in nearly 30 years of Israeli rule.


    SDH> Yep, majority of them are non-Muslims

    Majority of whom?!
    (Make your lie explicit, ok?)


    SDH> West Jerusalem served as Israel's capital, but was not recognized as such internationally because UN General Assembly Resolution 194 envisaged Jerusalem as an international city. East Jerusalem is under the Palestinian territories

    S15. Yet UNGAR 194 was rejected by the Arabs and abandoned already then by the UN.

    S16. Note the duplicity. Despite Jerusalem (western and eastern) being part of the international city, samxr claims that so-called "East Jerusalem" is part of the "Palestinian territories" (UNGAR spoke of a Jewish state and an Arab state).


    SDH> a "core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times."

    The "area" is not defined by 20th century borders, as already explained here:

    S6. Arabs are not indigenous to Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/979648


    Look, samxr, it is completely pathetic that just because you have a new person to spam that you repeat the same old lies that have already been exposed.

    What is wrong with you?!
    How "just" can your cause be if you constantly have to lie to maintain it?
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Sep 03, 2010 7:36 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidAnd you are posting this why?

    So that we can all say that Hamas and the Palestinians are uncivilized animals and Israel and the Jews are at the pinnacle of human development?




    YEH, THAT ABOUT SUMS IT UP...
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Sep 03, 2010 7:41 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair said
    Webster666 saidI have a great idea for a peace process.

    A) Evacuate all Israelis from the West Bank
    B) Bomb everyone left in the West Bank
    C) Return Israelis to the West Bank
    D) Enjoy the peace

    Violence is the only thing that Israel's neighbors seem to understand.


    You are racist... anti-Palestinian.





    LOL.
    Well, you're half correct.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 03, 2010 5:14 PM GMT
    SDH> Do you have to repeat your lie again

    What "lie"?! Please be specific.


    SDH> and post anti-Palestinian threads?

    This thread is not "anti-Palestinian"
    (Unlike your numerous anti-Israel spam propaganda posts, usually on the basis of falsified data, be they "quotes" or videos.)
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/897708


    SDH> Again, my message wasn't for you

    This is a public discussion forum so I will call out your lies.

    Furthermore, this is a topic I posted.
    You want me not to post in my own thread so that you can get away with your blatant spam propaganda lies-for-the-cause?
    (That's not a nebulous kangaroo court accusation like you made; unlike you I've specified - and numbered - your lies!


    SDH> I am not going to response any of your post because you call me a "terrorist sympathizer."

    Yet you already failed to respond to my posts even before that.
    And we all know that if you could respond, you would.
    The problem is that you can't support your web of lies.
    You can't defend your nonsense from my criticisms.
    You can't uphold your self-contradicting "contexts".

    We've seen in this forum topic that you are a terrorist sympathizer and apologist.


    In one "context" you say you don't support Hamas.
    Yet in the next you not only fail to condemn Hamas, but you advocate policies that support Hamas.

    It's funny that you speak out against Fatah but not Hamas.
    (Because Fatah is seeking peace with Israel.)

    Your problem is that you are guided not by humanitarian concern for Gaza but by your hate of Israel.

    Your real litmus test is not what is good for the Palestinian Arabs, but what is bad for Israel.
    Hamas is bad for the Palestinan Arabs, but that's not important to samxr.
    Hamas is also bad for Israel, so he supports them.

    At the other end of the Palestinian Arab political spectrum:
    Fatah and the Fayyad government are doing a lot of good for the Palestinian Arabs, but that's not important to samxr.
    Fatah is also negotiating with Israel, so he's (vocally) against them.

    When you support policies that support Hamas, you support Hamas.

    Don't like it? Then change.
    Want to convince others that you've changed? Then stop lying all the time.
  • ZacktheMan

    Posts: 340

    Sep 04, 2010 12:22 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair said

    DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim concluded that genetic evidence coincides with historical accounts that at least part of the Arab Israeli and Palestinian population is mainly descended from local Christians and Jews "who had converted [to Islam] after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century A.D." These Christian and Jewish converts are believed to be descended from a "core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times."


    Muhammad, before he captured Mecca, Raided merchant caravans. They stole their goods, killed the men and his followers raped the females. The sex angle was a big reason why many served Muhammad. However, some of his fellow pirates argued 'What if they die in battle, they get no sexual reward.' This is when Muhammad declared that if a follower of his who dies in Battle in service of Allah, they will receive 70 virgins in Heaven for their pleasure. This concept served Muhammad well. So they attacked the caravans, raped the women, stole their goods, and forced the youth into their army. BTW, Muhammad's father, Abdallah, died 6 months before Muhammad was born. His mother died when he was six.

    It was Muhammad's hope that the Jews would join his movement. But they refused, That would be heresy to Judaism. So Muhammad turned on the Jews and had them slaughtered. Muhammad saw a beautiful young Jewish girl, whose parents and family were murdered that very day, and he desired to have sex with her. His counselors talked him out of it, and they told him to marry her tomorrow, and then have sex with her, which he did. Can you imagine what this female felt about having married and having sex the very next day with the man who murdered her entire family.

    When Muhammad's army grew powerful enough, they conquered Mecca and made it their capital. At this point, Muhammad died. This would have been the end of Islam, except that Muhammad's Generals had a good formula for getting rich by conquering nearby village, towns and cities, looting them, killing their warriors and those who resisted, and taking the local youth into their army and indoctrinating them into their Islamic ways.

    Within 100 years they conquered all lands up to India in the east and to Spain in the west and were stopped only by King Charles of France who thereafter was called Charles the Hammer (Martel).

    So as to your findings on genetics, it is no surprise that there are Jewish genes found in some Palestinians.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 04, 2010 7:03 AM GMT
    Christian73 said
    Caesarea4 saidIs anyone surprised that sxydrkhair, terrorist sympathizer that he is, attempts to divert from the topic - even without condemning yesterday's Hamas terrorist attack on innocent civilians?


    Two words: Rachel Corrie.

    I bring up Corrie because the US never once tried to bring justice for one of our citizens who was brutally murdered by the IDF. While there is much gray area in the Israel/Palestinian conflict, what is clear is that Israel's military and economic might dwarfs the Palestinian's and with power comes responsibility, including not bulldozing American citizens.

    I support Israel in general but its policies have taken an extreme rightward turn over the last decade or so. While I do not condone Hamas' violence, they have far fewer means of responding to the crushing oppression and increasing encroachment of West Bank settlers than Israel does.

    Where is your outrage about that? Where is your outrage about the IDF bulldozing entire neighborhoods to find one Hamas member? How would you feel if you home or entire block was razed by military forces looking for one terrorist?

    Until Israel comes to the table with a real desire for a reasonable two-state solution, this violence will continue and more civilians and soldiers on both sides will needlessly lose their lives.


    You are on the money! Israeli policies do not help advance the peace process especially those settlers who have taken land from the Palestinians....
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 04, 2010 1:44 PM GMT
    sam52> those settlers who have taken land from the Palestinians

    They haven't. The Jewish villages are built primarily on land that was owned by Jews prior to the complete ethnic cleansing of ALL Jews from Judea, Samaria & Gaza during the 1948 Arab invasion or was purchased after 1967.

    The "problem" of Jews living in Judea & Samaria (Gaza is again Judenfrei) will be resolved as part of a comprehensive peace agreement.
    Minor border adjustments will put most of the "settlers" in Israel.
    In exchange, Israel is willing to swap Arab villages just on the "wrong" side of the border.
    (Not oddly, the Arab residents there prefer their villages remain in Israel rather than Arab Palestine.)
    In pursuit of and in exchange for peace, Israel has shown that it is willing to uproot Jewish villages (in Sinai and Gaza).
    Or, if there's truly peace, why can't there be some Jews living in Arab Palestine?
    (Just as there are 1 million Arabs living in Israel, as full citizens with equal protection under the law.)

    The "settlements" are a non-issue and it is unfortunate that some use them as a pretense to avoid making peace.


    sam52> Israeli policies do not help advance the peace process

    Like Israel's settlement freeze for 10 months, with even the moderate Palestinian Arabs refusing to resume negotiations?
    (Until Obama recently put sufficient pressure forcing them to do so.)

    Like Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, reciprocated by the Arab side with skyrocketing terrorism?

    Like Olmert's peace plan, ignored by the other side?

    Like Barak's acceptance of the Clinton compromise parameters?

    In search of a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict: UNSCR 242, Oslo and Camp David/Taba
    (Or: I support the Clinton COMPROMISE parameters. Do you?!)


    Like Israel making peace with Jordan and Egypt (while other Arab parties stayed away from Carter's Camp David)?

    Like Israel accepting UNSCR 242 when it was issued (Egypt being the first Arab country to do so - a decade later)?

    Like Israel accepting the UN partition compromise of 1947 and willing to make peace after surviving the 1948 Arab war to destroy it?
    (The Arab League's stance for decades: the "3 NOs", No negotiations, No recognition, No peace.)


    Since 1993, Israel has allowed the PLO to enter the disputed territories to set up a provisional government authority. It has allowed elections and self-rule. It has withdrawn from all of Gaza and the 42% of Judea & Samaria (formerly Trans/Jordan's so-called "West Bank") - the area where 97% of the Arabs reside. It has agreed to a sovereign and independent Palestinian Arab state on a net 97% of the disputed territories (all except for about 65 square miles primarily inhabited by Jews).

    Tell me one thing the Palestinian Arabs have concretely given up, compromised on, since the peace process began. One thing. Just the other month PA President Abbas refused to even acknowledge that Israel is or will be the Jewish state. (Sounds like he favors a "two-state" sham solution, with both being Arab states.)

    The anti-Israel incitement in the territories continues (e.g., TV "public service" announcements urging children to put down their toys, pick up weapons and follow in the footsteps of Muhammad al Dura and become martyrs; Mickey Mouse and Big Bird like characters teaching hate). Then the leadership uses that as an excuse not to accept compromise (Arafat at Camp David 2000: "I invite you to my funeral" as a way of saying "no" to Clinton). And the leadership incites the "street", etc.

    Even if a final peace agreement is accomplished, 35% of Palestinian Arabs say the fighting should continue. And there's Hamas, and Hizbullah and Syria and Iran....
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14385

    Sep 04, 2010 3:46 PM GMT
    Granted the four brutal murders commited by the Hamas should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law but Caesarea47 has this horrible habit of only exposing criminal wrongdoing on the Palestinian side yet he is totally blind to the long decades of genocide commited against the Palestinian people by Israel's brutal and powerhungry military. He flatly refuses to face the harsh facts that Israel is primarily to blame for most of the serious problems in that deeply troubled region but instead he continues to distort the truth about Israel and cover up for all the acts of genocide and oppression against the Palestinian people on their own homeland.