Hamas keeps f*cking sh*t up for the Palestinians and Israelis

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    Sep 02, 2010 11:07 AM GMT
    Oh look, our peaceful friends the Hamas are still set to destroy Israel even in the midst of Israel and Palestine trying to negotiate peace. Thanks assholes.

    From the NYTimes:

    "Hamas Says Will Continue Attacks on Israelis
    By REUTERS
    Published: September 2, 2010
    Filed at 6:27 a.m. ET

    GAZA (Reuters) - Hamas said on Thursday its militants would keep on attacking Israelis and denounced peace talks between Israel and the West Bank-based Palestinian government due to start in Washington later in the day.

    Israeli forces have boosted security measures and Palestinian police have rounded up more than 500 Hamas suspects in the West Bank since a gunman for the Islamist group killed four Jewish settlers there on Tuesday.

    Hamas controls the Palestinian Gaza Strip, while Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party governs the West Bank.

    "Operations of resistance will continue and the measures by the occupation and Fatah will not block them," said Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri.

    Abbas is to meet Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at the State Department later on Thursday for the first direct peace talks for 20 months, but Hamas remains opposed to negotiations with Israel.

    "Mahmoud Abbas does not have the right to speak for the Palestinians, nor to represent them and therefore, any results will not be binding on the Palestinian people," Zuhri said.

    Hamas has also claimed responsibility for a second attack this week in the West Bank, a shooting on Wednesday that wounded two Israelis near another Jewish settlement in the territory that Palestinians seek for a future state.

    As well as rounding up Hamas suspects, West Bank authorities have vowed additional measures to prevent further violence.

    The West Bank government, Zuhri said, was "nothing but a tool to protect the security of the occupation and settlers."

    (Writing by Allyn Fisher-Ilan; Editing by Jon Hemming)"





    There you have it. Hamas does not want peace. They made it blatantly clear. So if you support the Hamas then you don't want peace. The only solution is to make peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and to completely wipe out the Hamas.

    LINK to article: http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/09/02/us/politics/politics-us-palestinians-israel-hamas.html?hp
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    Sep 02, 2010 4:27 PM GMT
    Hey, I'm all for it. If I were the Israeli military I would have razed Gaza to the ground years ago.

    Now bring on the haters for making such a statement!
  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Oct 29, 2010 8:08 PM GMT
    JAKEBENSON saidOh look, our peaceful friends the Hamas are still set to destroy Israel even in the midst of Israel and Palestine trying to negotiate peace. Thanks assholes. ...

    LINK to article: http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/09/02/us/politics/politics-us-palestinians-israel-hamas.html?hp


    Haaretz.com
    Latest update 12:05 18.04.09
    'Israel could have made peace with Hamas under Yassin'
    By Kobi Ben-Simhon

    ... Ben-Simhon: What did you talk about?

    Sela (chief intelligence officer of the Israel Prisons ): "Business - intelligence. When the biggest adversaries sit down to talk face to face, it's a different ball game. I always told him, 'Stop blowing up buses, stop murdering women and children.' He (Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Hamas founder) replied: 'Tzvika, listen, we had good teachers: You established a state thanks to your military power. The dead I take from you are for the sake of establishing a state, but you are killing women and children for the sake of the occupation. You already have a state. You are dirty and hypocritical. I have no interest in destroying you - all I want is a state."

    Ben-Simhon: So the father of the Hamas movement told you he recognized the State of Israel?

    Sela: "Yes. He was smart and brave. Cruel, but credible. He gave his life in the war for the freedom of his people. I tend to think that if we had tried for an agreement with him, we would have succeeded. … "

    Full story: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-could-have-made-peace-with-hamas-under-yassin-1.274217

    Rather than talk to Yassin about peace, Israeli Prime Minister Sharon had him assassinated.

    When Arafat unconditionally accepted the last Israeli peace offer made at the Taba negotiations, Sharon rejected Arafat's acceptance of the ISRAELI PEACE OFFER, and said it expired, and offered no alternative.

    Who's really against peace?
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    Oct 29, 2010 10:53 PM GMT
    tokugawa said
    Who's really against peace?


    Hamas
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Oct 30, 2010 8:29 PM GMT
    Tazo995 saidHey, I'm all for it. If I were the Israeli military I would have razed Gaza to the ground years ago.

    Now bring on the haters for making such a statement!





    Sounds good to me.
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    Oct 30, 2010 9:31 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair> I will continue to fight against Israeli occupiers.

    Of course you, like Hamas, reject negotiations, compromise and peaceful coexistence in favor of fighting.

    Note that Hamas terrorism started in 1994, not to "resist" the Israeli "occupation" but the nascent Oslo peace process.

    Note further that Israel withdrew from Gaza 5 years ago.
    How did Arab parties reciprocate this gesture?
    Hamas terrorism against innocent Israeli civilians skyrocketed!


    sxydrkhair> Israel admits breaking the ceasefire, not Hamas. So Israel doesn't want peace.

    Israel neither broke the ceasefire nor admitted it. It was Hamas who in December of 2008 refused to extend the ceasefire (which it had repeatedly violated) and launched hundreds of rockets at innocent Israeli civilians.

    samxr's false claim that Israel "broke" the ceasefire is based on an event in early November 2008 where it bombed a squad of rocket launchers before they were able to fire.


    From today's news:
    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=193319
    Hamas official: Those firing rockets at Israel are rebels
    || In an interview with London-based Al-Hayat newspaper [Hamas co-founder Mahmud] Zahar explained that "there is a ceasefire agreement that was formulated after the war [Operation Cast Lead in Gaza]. Did we reach the agreement in order to comply with or to violate it?"

    So Hamas has admitted that its own rocket launching squads, as well as those of Islamic Jihad and other terrorist groups, are violationing the current ceasefire.
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    Oct 30, 2010 9:42 PM GMT
    Tazo995 saidHey, I'm all for it. If I were the Israeli military I would have razed Gaza to the ground years ago.

    Now bring on the haters for making such a statement!


    You should know Israel already razed Gaza to the ground years ago. Killing so many children under 12 years old. You are so naive.

    Let talk about hate? Why is that nobody cares about civilians Palestinians were killed by Israeli settlers?

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    Oct 30, 2010 9:50 PM GMT
    ianct> Why is that nobody cares about civilians Palestinians were killed by Israeli settlers?

    Because the majority of the few Palestinian Arabs killed by "settlers" were acts of self-defense?
    (Source: Btzelem.)

    In the very few cases of "settlers" who killed Palestinian Arabs, no one is making excuses for them. They are uniequivocally condemned.

    Yet vile people like you, samxr, pouncer and tokugawa make excuses and seek to rationalize and justify the murder of thousands of innocent Israeli civilians by Arab terrorists? You refuse to identify this as terrorism? Refuse to condemn it, let alone mean it?

    Heck, you are so drunk on anti-Israel kool-aid that you won't even criticize Hamas for its persecution of gays, women, Christians, journalists and many others!
  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Oct 30, 2010 11:12 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 said ... like Hamas, reject negotiations, compromise and peaceful coexistence in favor of fighting.


    Of course you, like any Hasbara spokesperson, ignore information that does not fit into your biased narrative.

    Often you reflexively declare the information as false, or attack the messenger.

    Frequently you use insults and name calling which you decry when used by others while you think it's OK for you.

    You rarely give the source of your alleged information, and when you do, it is often to another one of your RJ threads, not a real source.

    In this thread, I posted an article from an Israeli newspaper, under the headline:

    Former Israeli Chief Intelligence Officer of the Israel Prisons Service: “Israel Could Have Made Peace with Hamas under Hamas Founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin”

    Full story: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-could-have-made-peace-with-hamas-under-yassin-1.274217

    Instead of opening a dialog with Yassin, Sharon had him assassinated. How did Yassin's assassination advance the cause of peace? It obviously didn't.

    How did Sharon's rejection of Arafat's acceptance of ISRAEL'S OWN PEACE PLAN advance the cause of peace? It obviously didn't.

    ISRAEL "rejected negotiations, compromise and peaceful coexistence in favor of fighting."

    Israel continues to sabotage "the peace process," most recently with the resumption of settlement building in the West Bank (there was no “freeze” in East Jerusalem,) since Israel's goal is to eliminate all Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, so still more settlements can be built, often on land owned by Palestinians.

    But the extremists in Israel will STILL not be satisfied, since they want:

    1) Egypt east of the Nile river,

    2) all of Lebanon,

    3) Syria, west of the Euphrates,

    4) all of Jordan, and

    5) Iraq south of the Euphrates river, all the way to the Persian gulf, all because:






    G-d "promised" it to them.

    source (with map): http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2010/10/20/israels-longstanding-middle-east-plan/
  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Oct 31, 2010 1:02 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidianct> Why is that nobody cares about civilians Palestinians were killed by Israeli settlers?

    Because the majority of the few Palestinian Arabs killed by "settlers" were acts of self-defense?
    (Source: Btzelem.)


    Naming an organization, without supplying a link to the exact page the information is on, is worthless.

    Lacking a link, c4’s assertion is suspect.

    Considering c4’s track record, his assertion is almost certainly untruthful. Maybe the "source" uses Israeli police reports, which would tend to exonerate the "settlers" because the police are "settlers" themselves. Let’s see if he can supply proof, in the form of a link.

    Caesarea4 saidIn the very few cases of "settlers" who killed Palestinian Arabs, no one is making excuses for them. They are uniequivocally condemned.


    Yet, despite the murders they commit, the settler murderers serve no jail time, there is no trial, there are no arrests. Very little effort is made to find the people who committed the crimes.

    Caesarea4 saidYet vile…


    Here comes the name calling and insults again.

    Caesarea4 said … people like you, samxr, pouncer and tokugawa make excuses and seek to rationalize and justify the murder of thousands of innocent Israeli civilians by Arab terrorists?


    Like you rationalized the Zionist terrorism of 1948 by saying that there were larger massacres which had occurred, and the Zionist massacres of civilians were "smaller," and less significant? c4 is like the pot calling the kettle black.

    So, c4, does your previous justification of Zionist massacres make you a "vile" person?

    Caesarea4 saidYou refuse to identify this as terrorism? Refuse to condemn it, let alone mean it?


    I have always condemned terrorism, and you have a reading comprehension problem of ignoring anything which does not fit into your Hasbara narrative. I previously wrote here in RJ forums that I condemned all terrorism, but I guess you missed it.

    Caesarea4 saidHeck, you are so drunk on anti-Israel kool-
    aid


    More c4 name calling and insults? Recall that c4 wrote:

    As usual, unable to address the topic or say anything intelligent... the personal attacks come flying.

    I guess c4 does not have anything intelligent to say. Oh, wait, didn’t c4 say that this does not apply to him? Typical c4 chutzpah.
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    Oct 31, 2010 2:46 AM GMT
    IanCT saidYou should know Israel Hamas already razed Gaza to the ground years ago hid in civilian areas in Gaza, killing so many children under 12 years old. You are so naive.

    Fixed for accuracy.


    IanCT said
    Let talk about hate? Why is that nobody cares about civilians Palestinians were killed by Israeli settlers?

    See your above fixed quote for answer.

    Also, Israelis ostensibly punish soldiers who harm Palestinians unwarranted. The same is not true the other way around. Wait, let me repeat this in detail: is a Palestinian kills an Israeli, the Palestinian is not punished by any Palestinian authority.

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    Oct 31, 2010 6:52 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair> I will continue to fight against Israeli occupiers.

    Of course you, like Hamas, reject negotiations, compromise and peaceful coexistence in favor of fighting.
    Note that Hamas terrorism started in 1994, not to "resist" the Israeli "occupation" but the nascent Oslo peace process.

    Note further that Israel withdrew from Gaza 5 years ago.
    How did Arab parties reciprocate this gesture?
    Hamas terrorism against innocent Israeli civilians skyrocketed!


    sxydrkhair> ?


    sxydrkhair> Israel admits breaking the ceasefire, not Hamas.

    Israel neither broke the ceasefire or admitted that. It was Hamas who in December of 2008 refused to extend the ceasefire (which it had repeatedly violated) and launched hundreds of rockets at innocent Israeli civilians.

    samxr's false claim that Israel "broke" the ceasefire is based on an event in early November 2008 where it bombed a squad of rocket launchers before they were able to fire.


    sxydrkhair> [provides a clip where an Israeli spokesman "strongly disagrees" with the allegation that it broke the ceasefire - which is the opposite of his claim that Israel "admits" doing so]

    That clip shows us how ridiculous some people are: The claim is made that since - during the ceasefire! - rockets were being fired by groups other than Hamas, that Israel couldn't respond to attacks.

    Indeed, by the time samxr would have you believe that Israel "broke" the ceasefire, there had already been 37 rocket attacks against Israel.

    From Nov. 5th until it expired on Dec. 19th, Israel continued to observe the ceasefire despite hundreds of additional rocket and mortar attacks. It was Hamas who not only refused to extend the ceasefire, but began launching hundreds of rocket attacks.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2008


    From today's news:
    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=193319
    Hamas official: Those firing rockets at Israel are rebels
    || In an interview with London-based Al-Hayat newspaper [Hamas co-founder Mahmud] Zahar explained that "there is a ceasefire agreement that was formulated after the war [Operation Cast Lead in Gaza]. Did we reach the agreement in order to comply with or to violate it?"

    So Hamas has admitted that its own rocket launching squads, as well as those of Islamic Jihad and other terrorist groups, are violationing the current ceasefire.

    sxydrkhair> ?

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    Oct 31, 2010 6:30 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair> you failed to respond all of my post.

    That you don't understand my response (or failed to read it) doesn't mean I didn't respond.


    sxydrkhair> Israeli admits Hamas didn't attack Israel first.

    First you lied that Israel "admitted" breaking the ceasefire - yet your own video had the Israeli representative "strongly disagreeing" with that.

    Now you've modified your lie to say that Israel admits something entirely different (and irrelevant).

    Tell us: Did the 37 rocket attacks against Israel between June 19th (the start of the ceasefire) and Nov 3rd (before Israel allegedly "broke" the ceasefire) "break" the ceasefire?

    Yes or No?
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    Oct 31, 2010 10:03 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidIsraeli admits Hamas didn't attack Israel first.


    I don't think you get it. Hamas is dedicated to CONTINUE to attack Israel until it doesn't exist anymore. That means there will not be peace and you won't get a country. Do you get this? Is it getting through your head? Obviously not. You're just going to say "yeah but Israel..." No, your land is officially FUCKED as long as you have Hamas running it BECAUSE they will continue to attack Israel REGARDLESS of any peace efforts. They simply do not care.
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    Nov 01, 2010 12:54 PM GMT
    The majority of the few Palestinian Arabs killed (47 in 10 years) by "settlers" were acts of self-defense. (Source: B'tselem.)

    sxydrkhair> ?
    ianct> ?
    tokugawa> ?
    pouncer> ?

    During that same time period, 742 Israeli civilians were murdered and 664 Palestinian Arabs were killed by other Palestinian Arabs.
    The usual suspects prefer to focus on about a dozen deaths rather than more than 1400 others.


    In the very few cases of "settlers" who killed Palestinian Arabs, no one is making excuses for them. They are unequivocally condemned.

    sxydrkhair> ?
    ianct> ?
    pouncer> ?

    tokugawa> despite the murders they commit, the settler murderers serve no jail time, there is no trial, there are no arrests

    What an odd complaint coming from someone cheering the side that considers their murderers to be "martyrs".
    Worse, it's just another lie-for-the-cause:

    Israel Arrests West Bank Settler For Terror Attacks
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/01/israel-arrests-west-bank_n_341542.html

    Alleged Jewish terrorist Yaakov Teitel goes on trial in Jerusalem
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/alleged-jewish-terrorist-yaakov-teitel-goes-on-trial-in-jerusalem-1.2482

    Israeli settlers arrested in mosque arson investigation
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8465006.stm

    Settler rabbi arrested for controversial book
    http://jta.org/news/article/2010/07/26/2740220/settler-rabbi-arrested-for-contoversial-book


    People like ianct, samxr, pouncer and tokugawa make excuses and seek to rationalize and justify the murder of thousands of innocent Israeli civilians by Arab terrorists. They refuse to identify this as terrorism. Refuse to condemn it.

    pouncer> ?
    ianct> ?
    sxydrkhair> ?

    tokugawa> I previously wrote here in RJ forums that I condemned all terrorism

    Pro forma lip service. A person who really meant it would use this as an opportunity to explicitly and unequivocally condemn Palestinian Arab terrorism. You now hide in the shadows of having previously condemned "all terrorism". Given that samxr and ianct have claimed that the blowing up of civilian Israeli buses is not terrorism but "legitimate resistance" and you've said nothing to disabuse them of that your position is at best unclear.


    You are so drunk on anti-Israel kool-aid that you won't even criticize Hamas for its persecution of gays, women, Christians, journalists and many others!

    The usual suspects> [more silence]
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    Nov 01, 2010 9:30 PM GMT
    You are so drunk on anti-Israel kool-aid that you won't even criticize Hamas for its persecution of gays, women, Christians, journalists and many others!

    pouncer> you had your chance to make peace with the Palestinians for 60 long years before Hamas came into power, and you constantly chose occupation over peace.

    ROTFL. What a distortion of nearly a century of history. To recap:

    1923: Jewish Agency accepts partition of Mandate Palestine, allocating 78% of it east of the Jordan River into an Arab state (Trans-Jordanian Palestine, today known as Jordan) and 22% west of the River for the Jewish state.

    1937: Jewish Agency accepts the principle of partition of western Palestine suggested by the British Peel Commission.
    Arab parties reject this and engage in 3 years of anti-British terrorism.

    1947: Jewish Agency accepts UN partition compromise.
    Arab parties violently reject it and start first war.

    1949: Israel accepts UNGAR 194 as the basis of making peace.
    Arab League issues its infamous "3 NOs": No negotiations, No recognition, No peace.

    1956: Israel unilaterally withdraws from territories captured in the 1956 war as a good faith measure towards making peace.
    Arab League reissues its "3 NOs".

    1967: Israel accepts UNSCR 242, establishing the land for peace formula.
    Arab League reissues its "3 NOs".

    Late 1970s: After another Arab war bent on Israel's destruction went badly for Egypt and Syria, Egyptian president Anwar Sadat decided to give peace a chance and found a ready, willing and able partner in Israel - then under its most right-wing government ever. For making peace, Egypt (the largest Arab country) was expelled from the Arab League. Recall that no other Arab party answered President Carter's invitation to come to the peace summit held at Camp David.

    1991: After betting on Saddam, PLO leader Yasser Arafat found himself in trouble after the first Gulf War when his Kuwaiti/Gulf backers abandoned him. The the opportunity for Madrid and Oslo was created - with Israel right there waiting for him.

    1994: Under the Oslo process, King Husssein of Jordan finally moves forward and signs a peace treaty with Israel (cementing a cordial relationship of nearly a quarter century).

    2000: Arafat walks out of President Clinton's Camp David summit, having "said no to everything" and having proposed no counter-offers. He returns to violence and terrorism.

    2001: After failing to implement the Sharm Agreement, Arafat rejects the Clinton compromise at Taba and then torches the olive branch extended by Shimon Peres at the Davos conference.

    2002: After failing to implement the Tenet Agreement, we are still waiting on the PA to implement the steps necessary at the outset of Phase I.

    Who, other than himself, is pouncer fooling?


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    Nov 01, 2010 11:11 PM GMT
    I disagree with the framing of these discussions exclusively as an "Israel vs. Hamas" problem. I understand the appeal of these simple narratives is precisely that they are simple, easy to understand, but let's not forget that the standoff between Israelis and Palestinians precedes and extends beyond Hamas. Hamas is but a piece of the puzzle here, and not the most important one.

    There is actually this great song by X-Plain, an (apparently fake?) Israeli hip hop band, about the 2009 Gaza War, that offers a more mature (and hilarious!) perspective in my opinion icon_wink.gif These guys are rock and roll--in every possible way.


    Xplain: Fall on me till / Satire Israel / Eretz Nehederet fr
    Uploaded by lepeuplelibre. - Click for more funny videos.

    Also, Tazo995, it's pretty sad (in a pathetic kinda way) that the virulence of your comment merely mimics the tragic antagonisms at stake here. Sorry, but you should know better.
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    Nov 02, 2010 1:12 AM GMT
    pouncer> assumes we both hold that timeline in common as a fair and accurate summary

    Your personal delusions are of no interest to the rest of us.
    If you could successfully challenge any of the points in the timeline, you would have.
    I have primary sources (American, Arab, European and Israeli) that support my position.
    You are relegated to 3rd party "he said" stories from propaganda web-sites.
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    Nov 02, 2010 1:12 AM GMT
    Pouncer said

    Well wait till you hear JakeBenson when he gets into full swing. C4's whole scummy clique has a reputation which precedes them on this site.


    Well, it's just ironic that we expect Israelis and Palestinians to resolve their differences, but we outsiders to the conflict for all practical matters can't have a respectful discussion about it. I'm not saying it's easy, or even possible, but maybe we should try a little harder to make these conversations as constructive as possible.

    Frankly speaking, I have no interest in arguing politics with anyone here. Definitely not the reason why I joined the site. I was just reading through the posts and thought of the X-Plain video clip, which is just brilliant.
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    Nov 02, 2010 6:48 AM GMT
    pouncer> so any "prejudice" I might have is not racism

    Your need to diminish any and all things Jewish is not only a prejudice but also racism.
    And it is quite transparent and vile.


    p> their candour, their tendency never to sensationalize bad news or needlessly exaggerate

    Pallywood: fake news revealed
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/897708

    We've similarly seen slews of spam propaganda lies-for-the-cause from our resident Palestinian Arabs (sxydrkhair/ianct).


    p> their misery in life and casualizes it to make pro-Israel talking points

    You doth project too much. We've seen, time and again, that you only care about their "misery" so far as you can use it to bash Israel.

    Thus you weren't aware of Nahr al-Bared and still couldn't care less about it.
    Thus you don't mind Hamas' tyrannical rule (you rush to "embrace" their representatives to ostensibly embarrass Israel).
    And you care not for the plight of gays, both under Hamas and PA rule.


    If you could successfully challenge any of the points in the timeline, you would have.
    I have primary sources (American, Arab, European and Israeli) that support my position.
    You are relegated to 3rd party "he said" stories from propaganda web-sites.


    p> C4's going to have to weather the storm if he wants to continue with this.

    More banal and empty threats in lieu of substance?
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    Nov 03, 2010 12:24 AM GMT
    pouncer> I was raised better than that

    Obviously you weren't given that you post screenful after screenful of petty and immature personal attacks - and absolutely nothing of substnace.

    I'll note this contradiction, though:

    p1> I only entered the Palestine debate about a few months ago, before that I kept a healthy distance. But I'm not standing by anymore - C4's going to have to weather the storm if he wants to continue with this.

    p2> I'm not interested in a debate

    I think everyone recognizes the timeline posted above as being correct.
    There's obviously nothing you can post to challenge it (other than from whacko web sites).
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    Nov 03, 2010 12:29 AM GMT
    open_minded10 saidI disagree with the framing of these discussions exclusively as an "Israel vs. Hamas" problem.


    You know, I was REALLY trying to give Palestinians the benefit of the doubt by pinpointing the biggest problem in their territory: Hamas, as opposed to just blaming them as a whole.
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    Nov 03, 2010 2:48 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidianct> Why is that nobody cares about civilians Palestinians were killed by Israeli settlers?

    Because the majority of the few Palestinian Arabs killed by "settlers" were acts of self-defense?
    (Source: Btzelem.)

    In the very few cases of "settlers" who killed Palestinian Arabs, no one is making excuses for them. They are uniequivocally condemned.




    Caesarea4, you cite B'tselem (note the correct spelling) as a source for your preposterous claim. But actually, what B'tselem has to say about settler violence is exactly the opposite of what you are saying. Check out the text in boldface and the link at the end:

    Settler Violence
    When Palestinians attack Israelis, the authorities invoke all means at their disposal – including some that are incompatible with international law and constitute gross violations of human rights – to arrest the suspects and bring them to trial. Defendants convicted by military courts can expect harsh sentences.

    In contrast, when Israeli civilians attack Palestinians, the Israeli authorities employ an undeclared policy of leniency and compromise toward the perpetrators. This policy is reflected in the actions of officials in charge of law enforcement – the Israel Defense Force (IDF) and the Israel Police Force (IPF) – which do not do enough to prevent harm to the life and property of Palestinians, and to stop the violent attacks by settlers while they are taking place. All law enforcement agencies and judicial authorities demonstrate little interest in uncovering the substantial violence that Israeli civilians commit against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.

    http://www.btselem.org/English/Settler_Violence/Index.asp

    So there, B'tselem has contradicted both of your original claims. Either B'tselem is a disreputable organization that reverses itself on a regular basis (in which case, please show me that they did in fact reverse their position on settler violence), or you just made up your evidence to sound legit. Can you please explain?

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    Nov 03, 2010 4:31 AM GMT
    The opinion you posted doesn't contradict either of my claims.

    In the very few cases of "settlers" who killed Palestinian Arabs, no one is making excuses for them. They are uniequivocally condemned.

    This is most certainly true on RJ - and beyond. As I posted above (Nov 01, 2010 8:54 AM EST), Jewish terrorists have been arrested, tried, convicted and jailed. Consider also this (from 2008 ):

    http://www.jordantimes.com/?news=11063
    [Israeli Prime Minister Ehud] Olmert used the evocative imagery of violence against Jews in Russia in the late 19th and early 20th centuries in condemning as a "pogrom" a Jewish settler rampage in a Palestinian village in the occupied West Bank.

    For every act of Jewish terrorism, there have been more than 1,000 acts of Arab terrorism.
    Can you ever recall any being condemned in such clear and unambiguous language by Palestinian Arab leaders?
    (Heck, it wasn't that long ago that the leaders were the masterminds behind the terrorist attacks.)

    In any event, the number of Palestinian Arabs killed by "settlers" (even including cases of self-defense) are but a tiny fraction of the number of innocent Israeli civilians murdered by Arab terrorists.


    The majority of the few Palestinian Arabs killed by "settlers" were acts of self-defense

    While the data no longer appears to be available on the בצלם‎ (that's the proper spelling! icon_biggrin.gif) web site, they previously published a breakdown of circumstances in which "settlers" killed Palestinian Arabs and the majority of them were instances of self-defense. Perhaps you can email them to request this additional data.



    I think everyone recognizes the timeline posted above as being correct.
    There's obviously nothing you can post to challenge it (other than from whacko web sites).


    pouncer> Do by all means feel free to name these "whacko" websites C4

    So you need me to help you because you don't have any sources at all?!


    p1> I only entered the Palestine debate about a few months ago, before that I kept a healthy distance. But I'm not standing by anymore - C4's going to have to weather the storm if he wants to continue with this.

    p2> I'm not interested in a debate

    So which is it?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 03, 2010 4:18 PM GMT
    Yet another post by pouncer with absolutely no substance and only personal attacks.

    Conclusion:

    p> you had your chance to make peace with the Palestinians for 60 long years before Hamas came into power, and you constantly chose occupation over peace.

    Reality:

    1923: Jewish Agency accepts partition of Mandate Palestine, allocating 78% of it east of the Jordan River into an Arab state (Trans-Jordanian Palestine, today known as Jordan) and 22% west of the River for the Jewish state.

    1937: Jewish Agency accepts the principle of partition of western Palestine suggested by the British Peel Commission.
    Arab parties reject this and engage in 3 years of anti-British terrorism.

    1947: Jewish Agency accepts UN partition compromise.
    Arab parties violently reject it and start first war.

    1949: Israel accepts UNGAR 194 as the basis of making peace.
    Arab League issues its infamous "3 NOs": No negotiations, No recognition, No peace.

    1956: Israel unilaterally withdraws from territories captured in the 1956 war as a good faith measure towards making peace.
    Arab League reissues its "3 NOs".

    1967: Israel accepts UNSCR 242, establishing the land for peace formula.
    Arab League reissues its "3 NOs".

    Late 1970s: After another Arab war bent on Israel's destruction went badly for Egypt and Syria, Egyptian president Anwar Sadat decided to give peace a chance and found a ready, willing and able partner in Israel - then under its most right-wing government ever. For making peace, Egypt (the largest Arab country) was expelled from the Arab League. Recall that no other Arab party answered President Carter's invitation to come to the peace summit held at Camp David.

    1991: After betting on Saddam, PLO leader Yasser Arafat found himself in trouble after the first Gulf War when his Kuwaiti/Gulf backers abandoned him. The the opportunity for Madrid and Oslo was created - with Israel right there waiting for him.

    1994: Under the Oslo process, King Husssein of Jordan finally moves forward and signs a peace treaty with Israel (cementing a cordial relationship of nearly a quarter century).

    2000: Arafat walks out of President Clinton's Camp David summit, having "said no to everything" and having proposed no counter-offers. He returns to violence and terrorism.

    2001: After failing to implement the Sharm Agreement, Arafat rejects the Clinton compromise at Taba and then torches the olive branch extended by Shimon Peres at the Davos conference.

    2002: After failing to implement the Tenet Agreement, we are still waiting on the PA to implement the steps necessary at the outset of Phase I.