Amsterdam....seriously... :( Amsterdam...

  • metta

    Posts: 39078

    Sep 06, 2010 2:43 AM GMT
    If I had to choose one city in the World that I would have thought it was safe for us, I would have chosen Amsterdam....


    well...


    41011_154664644559601_122256581133741_42



    at least 2000 attended the Right To Feel Safe protest today

    More photos can be seen here if you are logged into Facebook:
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=6580657&fbid=462846388063&id=131721753063#!/album.php?aid=258926&id=131721753063

    Or you can also see them here:

    http://partyhotshots.nl/index2.html

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    Sep 06, 2010 12:56 PM GMT
    it is almost entirely due to muslim immigration. They bring their intolerance with them and expect it to be tolerated. Liberalism isn´t about tolerance.

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    Sep 06, 2010 1:01 PM GMT
    Lostboy is partly right, but I wouldnt say its "muslim" immigration.. the surinamese and turks (both muslims, including some of my family members) have never caused these problems... its more commonly the moroccan teenage groups of boys causing these problem... my friends and I have often been bothered by them everywhere in Holland, including Amsterdam

    And honestly, I dont know quite how "muslim" these teenage boys consider themselves

    Its sad because its a bunch of baaaad apples spoiling it and making it hard for some of the many decent moroccans I have met
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    Sep 06, 2010 1:52 PM GMT
    Mocros icon_eek.gif

    It is mostly marocs... But they are part of muslim immigration. I was just not specific enough.
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    Sep 06, 2010 2:14 PM GMT


    It's so sad, I've been to Amsterdam 4 times over the last 10 years and visits 1 and 2 were fine (2002 and 2004) but the last two visits have been a different matter. I have a gay friend over there who tells me that it's no longer safe to walk down the street holding hands with your BF.

    Now Amsterdam used to be a mecca for gay people and was held up in such high esteem as the way things should be, it was a talking point in Ireland 15 years ago that you would see men holding hands in the street and kissing etc (the simple things in life eh?)

    I can say this with absolute authority that it is 100% down to the influx of Moroccan men and nothing else.
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    Sep 06, 2010 2:18 PM GMT
    Lostboy saidMocros icon_eek.gif

    It is mostly marocs... But they are part of muslim immigration. I was just not specific enough.


    Yes, that is true, but yeah, I just dont like putting it on such a large and non-distinct group, we may as well say "non-European" "north-African" or "brown" immigration if we go that far, it just doesnt quite identify the problem... "muslim" doesnt really define the group we are talking about.. the teenage boys that do this arent usually practicing muslims...

    In fact, these boys are usually Dutch-born, and are technically thus not even immigrants... they are Dutch nationals.... ive never had problems with direct immigrants myself anywhere....

    And I dont think its "mostly," Im pretty sure its "exclusively"... there are in fact only two groups Ive had problems with in Holland... these were the Marocs, and the Dutch themselves (usually racist or neo-nazi gabbers).... and I would not be able to claim the problems lies with the "christians" just because these racist Dutch teenage boys are from Christian background... they dont even care about Christianity... see what I mean?
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    Sep 06, 2010 2:20 PM GMT
    I think there are certainly times for the fabulousness of trannies and a circus-like environment, but I think setting a frivolous tone in this case is dead wrong. This is not to say the lives or lifestyles of transsexuals are frivolous, just maybe when they're dressed like clownish whores.

    And while I do realize that clownish whores do bring media attention, it's useless when they're painting the gay community as a mere distraction at times when we, you know, need to be heard.

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    Sep 06, 2010 2:26 PM GMT
    Trannies and circus-clowns have the same right to feel safe as you do. But people like you probably aren't aware of the problem or to chicken-shit to actually do something about it.
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    Sep 06, 2010 2:31 PM GMT
    Cute healthy reaction. And cute assumptions.

    And cute lumping all trannies in with circus clowns.

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    Sep 06, 2010 2:37 PM GMT
    bhp91126 saidTrannies and circus-clowns have the same right to feel safe as you do. But people like you probably aren't aware of the problem or to chicken-shit to actually do something about it.

    His statement, if I understand it correctly, reminds me of the cop-out for rapists, that the woman was "asking for it" because she was dressed too provocatively. Blame the victim.
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    Sep 06, 2010 2:40 PM GMT
    You understand nothing. And you sound like you're one decades-old talking point. I'm saying we should be angrier.

    I'm saying that I love trannies and would advocate riding one down the street covered in lube, but in times when we should be angry, they may not be the best front-and-center spokesperson for the cause at hand.

    After all, circus whore trannies are fun.
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    Sep 06, 2010 2:57 PM GMT
    Greg0201 saidYou understand nothing. And you sound like you're one decades-old talking point. I'm saying we should be angrier.

    I'm saying that I love trannies and would advocate riding one down the street covered in lube, but in times when we should be angry, they may not be the best front-and-center spokesperson for the cause at hand.

    After all, circus whore trannies are fun.

    I assume you'd still ponder how to react to the Stonewall-raid if you'd been around.

    Btw, presenting us as non-threatening, fun people has yielded great results over the past 40+ years. I'd rather be associated with the fun crowd than angry pocket-gays who will drive away potential allies with bad hair and attitude.
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    Sep 06, 2010 3:04 PM GMT
    Different times, different situation, different measures.
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    Sep 06, 2010 3:10 PM GMT
    Different place, different horizon, different opinions
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    Sep 06, 2010 3:13 PM GMT
    Lostboy saidit is almost entirely due to muslim immigration. They bring their intolerance with them and expect it to be tolerated. Liberalism isn´t about tolerance.



    Wow, we actually agree! Do you realize that the only parties in europe wanting to do anything about this are rightwing parties?
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    Sep 06, 2010 3:17 PM GMT
    Greg0201 said...I'm saying we should be angrier.

    After all, circus whore trannies are fun.

    Sounds like you're succeeding -- in here. On the street may be more problematic.

    As for "circus whore trannies" I'm not sure any tranny I know would like that term. The only people I know in our community who dress remotely like that are drag queens doing exaggerated character or comic drag.

    Indeed, I work with a tranny in an office a few days a week, where she is dressed business professional. And even when she performs on stage at night, she does understated female glam, not circus and not whore. I'm not sure where you're getting these derogatory and hostile terms & images.
  • d_1M

    Posts: 598

    Sep 06, 2010 3:51 PM GMT
    amar_m saidLostboy is partly right, but I wouldnt say its "muslim" immigration.. the surinamese and turks (both muslims, including some of my family members) have never caused these problems... its more commonly the moroccan teenage groups of boys causing these problem... my friends and I have often been bothered by them everywhere in Holland, including Amsterdam

    And honestly, I dont know quite how "muslim" these teenage boys consider themselves

    Its sad because its a bunch of baaaad apples spoiling it and making it hard for some of the many decent moroccans I have met


    Im glad you said that on the last sentence, i was getting piss but that fixed it up, here, i have Moroccan friends and they are exceptional, but i know there are some crazy ones. and Moroccans are very much muslims, mostly as far as i know but most of them are not extremist's Muslim's
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    Sep 06, 2010 3:53 PM GMT
    This is not to say the lives or lifestyles of transsexuals are frivolous, just maybe when they're dressed like clownish whores.

    Remember when I said this? I'm not sure where this assumption is coming from that transsexuals should be left out of the mix of these protests because they're assumed to be too over-the-top.I'm not assuming that. In fact, I'm assuming that most are completely integrated, normal members of society. I'm advocating no exclusions, no hype, no spectacle--in this particular situation.

    And let's pretend I used the phrase "clownish drag queen whores*" above just to drive the point home that I'm talking about cartoon-like portrayals of women only not--in this case--serving as desirable front-and-center spokespersons.

    *The usage of "whore" in this context being of the fun-loving "hey, whattup whore!" variety.

    Does this all bode well for the PC police?
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    Sep 06, 2010 3:56 PM GMT
    wow I didn't know moroccans were more homophobic than people from other islamic countries.... silliest generalization I've seen this week icon_rolleyes.gif

    I know there's homophobia in those groups of young men (often from islamic backgrounds, I admit) who want to represent an agressive macho culture, but to specifically blame Morocco is just silly.
  • Hunter9

    Posts: 1039

    Sep 06, 2010 4:07 PM GMT
    judoguy saidwow I didn't know moroccans were more homophobic than people from other islamic countries.... silliest generalization I've seen this week icon_rolleyes.gif


    what is so silly about this generalization? of course the people in some countries are more homophobic than in others. and of the big 3 immigrant groups in the Netherlands (turks, moroccans and surinamese), the Moroccans tend to be less accepting and more likely to display this lack of acceptance.
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    Sep 06, 2010 4:08 PM GMT
    Hunter9 said
    judoguy saidwow I didn't know moroccans were more homophobic than people from other islamic countries.... silliest generalization I've seen this week icon_rolleyes.gif


    what is so silly about this generalization? of course the people in some countries are more homophobic than in others. and of the big 3 immigrant groups in the Netherlands (turks, moroccans and surinamese), the Moroccans tend to be less accepting and more likely to display this lack of acceptance.


    You forgot my own ethnic group (the Caribbeans/Antilleans) whom in the Netherlands, have the highest rates of youth crime and murder, and the greatest numbers of us flock the Dutch jails icon_sad.gif
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    Sep 06, 2010 4:09 PM GMT
    (1) It is a cultural thing
    (2) It is a Moroccan-dutch cultural thing.

    Most of the anti gay violence in Holland is young Moroccans. That´s just a fact
  • jgymnast733

    Posts: 1783

    Sep 06, 2010 4:16 PM GMT
    judoguy saidwow I didn't know moroccans were more homophobic than people from other islamic countries.... silliest generalization I've seen this week icon_rolleyes.gif

    I know there's homophobia in those groups of young men (often from islamic backgrounds, I admit) who want to represent an agressive macho culture, but to specifically blame Morocco is just silly.

    Moroccans?
    I know lots of moroccans here in new york and arabs from everywhere, i'v never had a problem with the islamic community....I find it all so strange...
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    Sep 06, 2010 4:18 PM GMT
    OK i keep iterating, its not a specifically Islamic thing here, these boys cannot be considered practicing muslims...
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    Sep 06, 2010 4:26 PM GMT
    judoguy saidwow I didn't know moroccans were more homophobic than people from other islamic countries.... silliest generalization I've seen this week icon_rolleyes.gif

    I know there's homophobia in those groups of young men (often from islamic backgrounds, I admit) who want to represent an agressive macho culture, but to specifically blame Morocco is just silly.


    Morocco is not more homophobic, its one of the BEST for gays and the LEAST homophobic in North Africa, relatively.... its anti-gay laws are rarely enforced and its king is widely said to be gay

    That said, I still hear stories of people there being threatened for their lives just for being gay, I am simply making comparisons to others, like Iran, where you are executed for it, or in Egypt, where the police hunt you down online and torture you, quite unceremoniously

    http://www.globalgayz.com/country/Morocco/view/MAR/gay-morocco-myths-and-realities

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Morocco