Today’s conservative anger is built upon an illusion

  • metta

    Posts: 39129

    Sep 12, 2010 2:36 AM GMT
    Today’s conservative anger is built upon an illusion

    http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2010/09/10/todays-conservatism-anger-is-built-upon-an-illusion/
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Sep 12, 2010 7:18 AM GMT
    I heard something tonight that I thought was very profound.

    "The stupidest conservative voters are the poor people, because the Republican party has no intention of doing anything for them, yet they keep right on voting for the Republicans, and against their own best interests."

    But, it just shows that, in most cases, the dumber you are, the poorer you are, and the more likely you'll fall for the hatred (us against them), irrational fear, and lies of the conservative Republican candidates.
  • metta

    Posts: 39129

    Sep 12, 2010 8:07 AM GMT
    Well, to be honest, one thing that both the very wealthy and very poor have in common is that they often times live in fear of change. The very wealthy fear that change will cause them to lose what they have and the very poor fear that change will make things worse and that they are already at the bottom... it is almost a basic survival instinct. I think that is why pushing fear, even if it is irrational/dishonest fear, works so well on them.
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    Sep 12, 2010 9:06 AM GMT
    jprichva said
    Really, I think we should revive gulags.

    Webster666 said...the more likely you'll fall for the hatred (us against them), irrational fear, and lies of the conservative Republican candidates.

    Or is the hatred and fear the Left has of the right justified? I point this out because I see enough hatred, fear and "it's us against them" on both sides of the spectrum to make me ill. Of course, on this site people usually feel that the fear of conservative politicians is justified as is their hatred. When I talk with Republicans they all feel that their fear and hatred are justified...

    Heck, even this post had a lot of assumptions. You assume that the poor are pretty much too stupid to know what is good for them. It could be that they like the "liberal" gun policies of the GOP (living in an economically disadvantaged area usually means high crime- it could be that they want their assault rifles...) Often times an area that is "poor" has a higher number of religious adherents- it could be that they want to prevent same sex marriage (granted, not a lofty goal) but the post presupposes that they are voting Republican because of economics and are dumb. Perhaps a better starting point would be questioning what the reason is that they are voting against what you see as their own interests instead of assuming they are stupid.

    The final point supposes that you are correct; people in the poor areas are being manipulated to vote Republican. If this is true it is the fault of the Democrats. Getting out, meeting the people and showing them all that the Democrats plan to do to help them if elected (and following through) would be an excellent start. It could be that they just don't trust a government who promises them things. (the track record for public schools in poor areas and housing projects have not been successes to point to.) Get out and put plans into action and be able to point out what those actions achieved to help the poor in America when you are door knocking. It just could be that the Democratic candidates have the attitude that "the dumber you are, the poorer you are" and that their voters don't like being called dumb so vote for the other candidate.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Sep 12, 2010 2:03 PM GMT
    Webster666 saidI heard something tonight that I thought was very profound.

    "The stupidest conservative voters are the poor people, because the Republican party has no intention of doing anything for them, yet they keep right on voting for the Republicans, and against their own best interests."
    .



    Sounds like a log cabin republican.... but of course I realize the response could be "we are not single issue voters"... my comment back "so you ignore one of the most important"?
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Sep 12, 2010 5:57 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Webster666 saidI heard something tonight that I thought was very profound.

    "The stupidest conservative voters are the poor people, because the Republican party has no intention of doing anything for them, yet they keep right on voting for the Republicans, and against their own best interests."

    But, it just shows that, in most cases, the dumber you are, the poorer you are, and the more likely you'll fall for the hatred (us against them), irrational fear, and lies of the conservative Republican candidates.


    And how about this:

    "The stupidest Democrat / liberal voters are the gays, because the Democrat sic {-ic} party has no intention of doing anything for them, yet they keep right on voting for the Democrats, and against their own best interests."


    How's the republican party doing for YOUR Gayness over there? icon_cool.gif

    Regular rip-roarin' Provicetown over at CPak isn't it?
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Sep 12, 2010 10:08 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Webster666 saidI heard something tonight that I thought was very profound.

    "The stupidest conservative voters are the poor people, because the Republican party has no intention of doing anything for them, yet they keep right on voting for the Republicans, and against their own best interests."

    But, it just shows that, in most cases, the dumber you are, the poorer you are, and the more likely you'll fall for the hatred (us against them), irrational fear, and lies of the conservative Republican candidates.


    And how about this:

    "The stupidest Democrat / liberal voters are the gays, because the Democrat party has no intention of doing anything for them, yet they keep right on voting for the Democrats, and against their own best interests."








    Talk about stupid...
    There is no "Democrat" party.
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Sep 12, 2010 10:11 PM GMT
    west77 said
    jprichva said
    Really, I think we should revive gulags.

    Webster666 said...the more likely you'll fall for the hatred (us against them), irrational fear, and lies of the conservative Republican candidates.

    Or is the hatred and fear the Left has of the right justified? I point this out because I see enough hatred, fear and "it's us against them" on both sides of the spectrum to make me ill. Of course, on this site people usually feel that the fear of conservative politicians is justified as is their hatred. When I talk with Republicans they all feel that their fear and hatred are justified...

    Heck, even this post had a lot of assumptions. You assume that the poor are pretty much too stupid to know what is good for them. It could be that they like the "liberal" gun policies of the GOP (living in an economically disadvantaged area usually means high crime- it could be that they want their assault rifles...) Often times an area that is "poor" has a higher number of religious adherents- it could be that they want to prevent same sex marriage (granted, not a lofty goal) but the post presupposes that they are voting Republican because of economics and are dumb. Perhaps a better starting point would be questioning what the reason is that they are voting against what you see as their own interests instead of assuming they are stupid.

    The final point supposes that you are correct; people in the poor areas are being manipulated to vote Republican. If this is true it is the fault of the Democrats. Getting out, meeting the people and showing them all that the Democrats plan to do to help them if elected (and following through) would be an excellent start. It could be that they just don't trust a government who promises them things. (the track record for public schools in poor areas and housing projects have not been successes to point to.) Get out and put plans into action and be able to point out what those actions achieved to help the poor in America when you are door knocking. It just could be that the Democratic candidates have the attitude that "the dumber you are, the poorer you are" and that their voters don't like being called dumb so vote for the other candidate.




    Let's review.

    The Republicans led us into the first Great Depression.
    The Republicans led us into the George W. Bush Great Depression.

    No wonder voters are afraid of you stupid, greedy, self loathing, wing nuts.
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    Sep 12, 2010 10:19 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Webster666 saidNo wonder voters are afraid of you stupid, greedy, self loathing, wing nuts.


    Do you have anything pleasant to say today, Webster-the-Devil?


    LOL. I noticed that the conservatives avoided this topic like the plague.
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    Sep 12, 2010 10:30 PM GMT
    Yeah, but SB, have you addressed the OP's article and the 3 tables in them?icon_question.gif
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    Sep 12, 2010 10:41 PM GMT
    Webster666 said
    But, it just shows that, in most cases, the dumber you are, the poorer you are, and the more likely you'll fall for the hatred (us against them), irrational fear, and lies of the conservative Republican candidates.

    Most poor people don't vote. So in the end it really doesn't matter what they think. Most poor people in America are going to be Blacks and Hispanics who overwhelmingly vote Democratic. Most poor whites hate all forms of government equally-they definitely do not vote even, for Republicans.
    Also, the article fails to account for federals debt accumulated by both parties. Thus federal revenue from GDP doesn't matter, because we go into debt once spending exceeds what we make.
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    Sep 12, 2010 11:51 PM GMT
    Yes, the author of that article does have it wrong and he stands corrected. While government is continually growing, no one has ever suggested that the government is so large that it has taken over the whole private sector. This guy is just creating a straw man argument and then tearing it down.

    If democrats had their way, however, it would be that way. It's about stopping the direction, which, if not checked will definitely get closer to the situation described in the article.
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    Sep 13, 2010 12:20 AM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidYes, the author of that article does have it wrong and he stands corrected. While government is continually growing, no one has ever suggested that the government is so large that it has taken over the whole private sector. This guy is just creating a straw man argument and then tearing it down.

    If democrats had their way, however, it would be that way. It's about stopping the direction, which, if not checked will definitely get closer to the situation described in the article.


    Did you read the article? Because you couldn't possibly have drawn that conclusion if you did.

    You have been one the vocal conservatives on here saying "big government's the problem," it's stifling growth, etc. What his article proves is that your boogeyman doesn't exist.

    "However you want to measure it — the ratio of government employees in the workforce, average income tax rates, total federal revenue — government is not increasing its death grip on the American economy and by many important measures is taking less of a bite than it ever has. In other words, the basic narrative driving today’s conservative anger has no real basis in fact."
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    Sep 13, 2010 12:33 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie saidYes, the author of that article does have it wrong and he stands corrected. While government is continually growing, no one has ever suggested that the government is so large that it has taken over the whole private sector. This guy is just creating a straw man argument and then tearing it down.

    If democrats had their way, however, it would be that way. It's about stopping the direction, which, if not checked will definitely get closer to the situation described in the article.


    Did you read the article? Because you couldn't possibly have drawn that conclusion if you did.

    What his article proves is that your boogeyman doesn't exist.



    Christian, it's a blog... an opinion piece.... an essay.


    By a columnist for the Atlanta Journal Constitution based on statistics from the conservative Tax Foundation. And that's some how less valid than what?
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    Sep 13, 2010 12:53 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie saidYes, the author of that article does have it wrong and he stands corrected. While government is continually growing, no one has ever suggested that the government is so large that it has taken over the whole private sector. This guy is just creating a straw man argument and then tearing it down.

    If democrats had their way, however, it would be that way. It's about stopping the direction, which, if not checked will definitely get closer to the situation described in the article.


    Did you read the article? Because you couldn't possibly have drawn that conclusion if you did.

    What his article proves is that your boogeyman doesn't exist.



    Christian, it's a blog... an opinion piece.... an essay.


    By a columnist for the Atlanta Journal Constitution based on statistics from the conservative Tax Foundation. And that's some how less valid than what?


    Cause at its core it's an opinion piece (though even most "news" articles these days seem to be guilty of bias).


    Right... Because you NEVER post opinion pieces... icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Sep 13, 2010 2:50 AM GMT
    Yes, that illusion is called privilege.icon_exclaim.gif
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Sep 13, 2010 2:57 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    carmineastoria said Most poor people in America are going to be Blacks and Hispanics who overwhelmingly vote Democrat.


    An interesting point, though.

    Here in South Florida, with it's large Cuban population, latinos tend to favor Republicans.




    I guess that's why Obama won the state of Florida in 2008...
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    Sep 13, 2010 4:06 AM GMT
    Webster666 said
    No wonder voters are afraid of you stupid, greedy, self loathing, wing nuts.

    You may notice that I am not an American... therefore unable to vote in your elections. Having said that, I was an Obama supporter (for what little it counts in a country that does not get to vote for him.) I still think that he has a lot going for him; you are right, be afraid of us stupid, greedy, self loathing, Obama supporting wing nuts!!!

    Really, you have to realize that I am just here to point out the flip side of arguments. I rarely speak against the Republican side on this board because it feels like stomping somebody who is already being stomped- not my style. I do support some of the conservative fiscal policies and the liberal social policies, but do not really have any party allegiances.

    Now, if you want to argue that the Republicans have led the country into the depressions (and say the recessions as well) then I would argue that is not a reason for the very poor not to vote Republican. If I am on welfare and food stamps, unable to find a job, poor and have 5 children then this recession (or the GWB depression, if you prefer) has not really hurt me. As a matter of fact, my payments that I collect stay the same and the deflationary recession makes my rent, fuel and food cheaper. Right now natural gas sits around $4.00 where prior to this it was near $10.00. This will help many this winter heat their house (though it has played havoc with a few of my holdings...)

    My property value has fallen quite dramatically- perhaps yours has as well. Reasons for us to hate GWB (if we are really going to lay this all at his feet- something I am unwilling to do.) But if I were younger and was looking at $300 000 for a starter home (what you used to pay in Calgary) I would find this recession has helped make homes more affordable. Now I am looking at $220 000 or $250 000. When you argue that this recession has been bad you argue from the point of a home owner / working man / somebody with a retirement fund. If you are making minimum wage and renting this has been a bonus... Vote early, vote often, vote Republican (if you are poor.)

    I noticed that you still have not addressed the question of weather you believe that at least some poor people are not voting Republican based on economics but rather for other reasons...

    ***Edit- in the name of disclosure I also supported Ron Paul. I was kind of glad that I did not have to actually choose between him and Obama when voting.***

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    Sep 13, 2010 8:37 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie saidYes, the author of that article does have it wrong and he stands corrected. While government is continually growing, no one has ever suggested that the government is so large that it has taken over the whole private sector. This guy is just creating a straw man argument and then tearing it down.

    If democrats had their way, however, it would be that way. It's about stopping the direction, which, if not checked will definitely get closer to the situation described in the article.


    Did you read the article? Because you couldn't possibly have drawn that conclusion if you did.

    What his article proves is that your boogeyman doesn't exist.



    Christian, it's a blog... an opinion piece.... an essay.


    By a columnist for the Atlanta Journal Constitution based on statistics from the conservative Tax Foundation. And that's some how less valid than what?


    Cause at its core it's an opinion piece (though even most "news" articles these days seem to be guilty of bias).


    Opinion piece or not, facts don't lie.

    So just stop.