Breaking News: Gay Conservative writer writes hit-piece on suicide victim.

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    Oct 06, 2010 2:10 PM GMT
    http://dailycaller.com/2010/09/30/rutgers-sex-tape-suicide-is-not-a-hate-crime/
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    Oct 06, 2010 2:15 PM GMT
    Typical right-wing homophobia. But we can read similar right here on RJ, from the usual anti-gay suspects, parroting talking points just like these. icon_razz.gif
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    Oct 06, 2010 2:19 PM GMT
    Well, the writer did say this, " The idiots who videotaped this student are sublime examples of douchebags. They are not, however, killers. Let’s not allow Clementi’s poor decision to cloud our judgment of the culprits. Kick them out of school, prosecute them for exploitation — they deserve all of the ridicule they’ll receive. But don’t brand them murderers. Humiliation, no matter how heinous, is not murder. They humiliated Mr. Clementi. They didn’t kill him."

    I take exception to this one sentence:

    "Let’s not allow Clementi’s poor decision to cloud our judgment of the culprits."

    Tyler was 18 and not out. Poor kid.

    -Doug


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    Oct 06, 2010 3:43 PM GMT
    How can that possibly be termed a "hit piece" on the victim? For another reference, see Kennethinthe212's response (someone who is anything but conservative):
    http://www.kennethinthe212.com/2010/10/law-of-unintended-consequences.html

    "No one deserves to be humiliated like he was. But like all suicides, we'll never know exactly what caused the victim to go through with the final act. Life is a series of events, not just one moment. And frequently when you're a gay youth, it's series of really painful events., which is why it is so important for our leaders to set an example that it's not OK to treat gay people like second-class citizens. The perpetrators in this tragedy should definitely punished for what they did. Still, you can't punish people for what you think they did caused another person to do. That's just not how our justice [system] works."
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19128

    Oct 06, 2010 3:56 PM GMT
    I don't think it's fair to call this a "hit piece" at all. It's putting things in a bit of perspective. How many "hit pieces" have been written by gay organizations wanting to send the kids to prison for eternity? This piece does not excuse the kids that video-taped Tyler Clementi for their despicable behavior, but it does place some of the blame for the ultimate tragedy on Tyler himself -- and that is not altogether unfair. He made the choice to jump off the bridge, it's not like there were not other alternatives. This is a tragedy for all concerned. The kids who video-taped him will live with this guilt their entire lives.
  • rioriz

    Posts: 1056

    Oct 06, 2010 3:58 PM GMT
    riddler78 saidHow can that possibly be termed a "hit piece" on the victim? For another reference, see Kennethinthe212's response (someone who is anything but conservative):
    http://www.kennethinthe212.com/2010/10/law-of-unintended-consequences.html

    "No one deserves to be humiliated like he was. But like all suicides, we'll never know exactly what caused the victim to go through with the final act. Life is a series of events, not just one moment. And frequently when you're a gay youth, it's series of really painful events., which is why it is so important for our leaders to set an example that it's not OK to treat gay people like second-class citizens. The perpetrators in this tragedy should definitely punished for what they did. Still, you can't punish people for what you think they did caused another person to do. That's just not how our justice [system] works."


    Totally agree with this writer and the OP writer. While what they did was heinous I do not believe they should be branded as murderers. Some punishment from the school and/or law should suffice. I am sure their conscience will haunt them for years because of their childish acts.
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    Oct 06, 2010 4:01 PM GMT
    It's a retaliatory piece because of a gay organization wanting those two kids to fry.

    That's dumb on the gay org's part. They're immature kids and a whole lot sorrier now, because the story will never disappear and will follow them throughout their education and careers. They've had their pics blasted across the global media, and now their lives are ruined as surely as the young man they played.

    -Doug
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    Oct 06, 2010 4:14 PM GMT
    "First of all: forgive me if my sympathy runs thin for someone who commits suicide over a sex tape. This taping was surely humiliating and shameful — but in the grand, cosmic scheme of things, it doesn’t even begin to rank as tragic. We have got to be realistic when assessing this event and maintain publicly that humiliation is a preposterous rationale for suicide.

    At this point, specialists in psychobabble are apt to remind us of the inherently irrational nature of suicide and admonish that we have “no room to judge” what was going on in this boy’s head. But this is ridiculous: thousands of people are humiliated on this scale in the United States on a yearly — perhaps monthly — basis. Most of them deal with the shame in ways other than throwing themselves off of a bridge. Are we to assume that this guy, who we keep getting told was brilliant and talented, didn’t have the cognitive skills to think this through? He weighed the pros and cons and made his decision. Events may trigger us in myriad ways, but we ultimately must choose how to respond to them."

    This is more or less what I was talking about. This right here is nothing but pure unfiltered bullshit.
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    Oct 06, 2010 4:18 PM GMT
    DoomsDayAlpaca said"First of all: forgive me if my sympathy runs thin for someone who commits suicide over a sex tape. This taping was surely humiliating and shameful — but in the grand, cosmic scheme of things, it doesn’t even begin to rank as tragic. We have got to be realistic when assessing this event and maintain publicly that humiliation is a preposterous rationale for suicide.

    At this point, specialists in psychobabble are apt to remind us of the inherently irrational nature of suicide and admonish that we have “no room to judge” what was going on in this boy’s head. But this is ridiculous: thousands of people are humiliated on this scale in the United States on a yearly — perhaps monthly — basis. Most of them deal with the shame in ways other than throwing themselves off of a bridge. Are we to assume that this guy, who we keep getting told was brilliant and talented, didn’t have the cognitive skills to think this through? He weighed the pros and cons and made his decision. Events may trigger us in myriad ways, but we ultimately must choose how to respond to them."

    This is more or less what I was talking about. This right here is nothing but pure unfiltered bullshit.


    ...and you'd be right.
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    Oct 06, 2010 4:22 PM GMT
    Oh, it would be nice to think that being gay has become so accepted in our society that is now outright banal. But I don't think that that is the case. I don't think if this had been a tape if a heterosexual roommate it would have been posted, because viewers, mostly straight, would have identified with the victims and seen it as just douchebag invasion of privacy. No, this vid was still titillating because of its homosexual theme. But posting a vid of an intimate private sexual activity would still usually be embarassing for a straight person, so how much more so for a closeted gay person.

    Was it a hate crime, tho. I think it definitely was a crime, more than just invasion of privacy. There are crimes of negligence Crimes were diligence to take proper care to prevent an injury was not taken. And here is why I think the filmers could be considered negligent. Gays still suffer a rough time in our society, both growing up and as adults. Many gays are still very secretive of their gay identities. Therefore, the filmers needed to take into consideration that they could not possibly know the state of mind of the victim and how he would react under these circumstances. Discretion was the only proper course of action under these circumstances. Not showing that discretion, to me, is like manslaughter. You didn't intend to kill the person, but you still did. So it's a crime.

    Was it hateful in the sense of a hate crime? Well, certainly wasn't done to ve nice. And it was done with the intention of humiliating the victim because of his sexuality. That seems pretty hateful.

    So I think one could make a case for a hate crime. Just because our society and culture are so ingrained with hate and discrimination for gays isn't an excuse to avoid prosecution for it. Enough has been said by the gay community for people to be aware of their actions now.

    Throw the book at them!
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19128

    Oct 06, 2010 4:25 PM GMT
    DoomsDayAlpaca said"First of all: forgive me if my sympathy runs thin for someone who commits suicide over a sex tape. This taping was surely humiliating and shameful — but in the grand, cosmic scheme of things, it doesn’t even begin to rank as tragic. We have got to be realistic when assessing this event and maintain publicly that humiliation is a preposterous rationale for suicide.

    At this point, specialists in psychobabble are apt to remind us of the inherently irrational nature of suicide and admonish that we have “no room to judge” what was going on in this boy’s head. But this is ridiculous: thousands of people are humiliated on this scale in the United States on a yearly — perhaps monthly — basis. Most of them deal with the shame in ways other than throwing themselves off of a bridge. Are we to assume that this guy, who we keep getting told was brilliant and talented, didn’t have the cognitive skills to think this through? He weighed the pros and cons and made his decision. Events may trigger us in myriad ways, but we ultimately must choose how to respond to them."

    This is more or less what I was talking about. This right here is nothing but pure unfiltered bullshit.



    I disagree, Dooms. The writer is merely putting this all in perspective, and the point he is trying to make, to a large degree is very true. People get bullied and humiliated all the time, but most people don't jump off a bridge because of it. This in no way excuses the bullying, nor does it try to minimize the tragicness of those who resort to suicide. Suicide is a choice made by an individual -- it's not murder at the hands of others.
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    Oct 06, 2010 4:33 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said"First of all: forgive me if my sympathy runs thin for someone who commits suicide over a sex tape. This taping was surely humiliating and shameful — but in the grand, cosmic scheme of things, it doesn’t even begin to rank as tragic. We have got to be realistic when assessing this event and maintain publicly that humiliation is a preposterous rationale for suicide.

    At this point, specialists in psychobabble are apt to remind us of the inherently irrational nature of suicide and admonish that we have “no room to judge” what was going on in this boy’s head. But this is ridiculous: thousands of people are humiliated on this scale in the United States on a yearly — perhaps monthly — basis. Most of them deal with the shame in ways other than throwing themselves off of a bridge. Are we to assume that this guy, who we keep getting told was brilliant and talented, didn’t have the cognitive skills to think this through? He weighed the pros and cons and made his decision. Events may trigger us in myriad ways, but we ultimately must choose how to respond to them."

    This is more or less what I was talking about. This right here is nothing but pure unfiltered bullshit.



    I disagree, Dooms. The writer is merely putting this all in perspective, and the point he is trying to make, to a large degree is very true. People get bullied and humiliated all the time, but most people don't jump off a bridge because of it. This in no way excuses the bullying, nor does it try to minimize the tragicness of those who resort to suicide. Suicide is a choice made by an individual -- it's not murder at the hands of others.

    But you are excusing the bullying, Blanche, but you are excusing the bullying. You are saying that because bullying goes on all the time, the consequences of this bullying should be excused. That's like making the case that racial discrimination went on all the time, therefore the consequences of discrimination should have been overlooked and let pass. No, no! That's just saying "well, everybody does it, so it's ok." Bullshit! Just because bullying wasn't prosecuted for what it was on the past doesn't mean it shouldn't be prosecuted for what it truly is in the present.
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    Oct 06, 2010 4:36 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said"First of all: forgive me if my sympathy runs thin for someone who commits suicide over a sex tape. This taping was surely humiliating and shameful — but in the grand, cosmic scheme of things, it doesn’t even begin to rank as tragic. We have got to be realistic when assessing this event and maintain publicly that humiliation is a preposterous rationale for suicide.

    At this point, specialists in psychobabble are apt to remind us of the inherently irrational nature of suicide and admonish that we have “no room to judge” what was going on in this boy’s head. But this is ridiculous: thousands of people are humiliated on this scale in the United States on a yearly — perhaps monthly — basis. Most of them deal with the shame in ways other than throwing themselves off of a bridge. Are we to assume that this guy, who we keep getting told was brilliant and talented, didn’t have the cognitive skills to think this through? He weighed the pros and cons and made his decision. Events may trigger us in myriad ways, but we ultimately must choose how to respond to them."

    This is more or less what I was talking about. This right here is nothing but pure unfiltered bullshit.



    I disagree, Dooms. The writer is merely putting this all in perspective, and the point he is trying to make, to a large degree is very true. People get bullied and humiliated all the time, but most people don't jump off a bridge because of it. This in no way excuses the bullying, nor does it try to minimize the tragicness of those who resort to suicide. Suicide is a choice made by an individual -- it's not murder at the hands of others.


    Carlson is right, you go on to do the thing you say you aren't doing, which also happens to be the same thing the article is doing.
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    Oct 06, 2010 4:36 PM GMT
    A couple of things.

    Alex Knepper, who wrote this piece, is a douchebag of the supreme order. His entire article politicizes Tyler's death in the same way he accuses other of doing.

    That said - and this is going to be unpopular - I've been discussing this story with a lot of friends and many of us fail to see how this was motivated by anti-gay hate. Was what they did wrong? Absolutely. But I have yet to see anyone come forward saying either Ravi or Wei were anti-gay or did this because Clementi was gay.

    I'm really not convinced that this had anything do with Clementi being gay. I can easily see this being done to a straight roommate. That doesn't lessen the fact that this kid killed himself over it, and the fact that he was gay and not out to many people may have played a role in that.

    But, I fear that in claiming this was a gay hate crime diminishes those instances in which homophobia is the actual driver.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19128

    Oct 06, 2010 4:37 PM GMT
    Caslon16000 said
    but you are excusing the bullying, Blanche, but you are excusing the bullying. You are saying that because bullying goes on all the time, the consequences of this bullying should be excused. That's like making the case that racial discrimination went on all the time, therefore the consequences of discrimination should have been overlooked and let pass. No, no! That's just saying "well, everybody does it, so it's ok." Bullshit! Just because bullying wasn't prosecuted for what it was on the past doesn't mean it shouldn't be prosecuted for what it truly is in the present.



    Oh really? Show me where I said anything like that. I specifically said this does NOT excuse the bullying. That said, the writer was making the point that a "bully" is not "murderer". Even in the extreme cases where bullying ends in suicide, tragic as this is, it is not murder by definition.
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Oct 06, 2010 4:41 PM GMT
    A2rower saidHmph. One life isn't worth anything in the grand scheme of things, according to the author.

    .


    This is NOT what the author said at all.
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    Oct 06, 2010 4:53 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    Caslon16000 said
    but you are excusing the bullying, Blanche, but you are excusing the bullying. You are saying that because bullying goes on all the time, the consequences of this bullying should be excused. That's like making the case that racial discrimination went on all the time, therefore the consequences of discrimination should have been overlooked and let pass. No, no! That's just saying "well, everybody does it, so it's ok." Bullshit! Just because bullying wasn't prosecuted for what it was on the past doesn't mean it shouldn't be prosecuted for what it truly is in the present.



    Oh really? Show me where I said anything like that. I specifically said this does NOT excuse the bullying. That said, the writer was making the point that a "bully" is not "murderer". Even in the extreme cases where bullying ends in suicide, tragic as this is, it is not murder by definition.

    "I disagree, Dooms. The writer is merely putting this all in perspective, and the point he is trying to make, to a large degree is very true. People get bullied and humiliated all the time, but most people don't jump off a bridge because of it. This in no way excuses the bullying, nor does it try to minimize the tragicness of those who resort to suicide. Suicide is a choice made by an individual -- it's not murder at the hands of others."

    Right there in red. There you dismiss bullying. It happens all the time without people jumping off a bridge so it doesn't count. People are often negligent, criminally negligent. But they are also lucky because nobody gets hurt so it doesn't get noticed. But that doesn't mean when someone does get hurt you can point to all those other instances and say "nobody got hurt there, so this isn't such a serious negligence." if something happens while you are being criminally negligent, you should be prosecuted and suffer the consequences.

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    Oct 06, 2010 4:54 PM GMT
    Is this argument logical?
    Alex Knepper = people against abortion, therefore hypocrisy

    I think Knepper is too dismissive of what can go on in a person's head. Circumstances can affect people differently, and we don't even know the combination of circumstances Tyler Clementi was facing.

    Although, if we implore troubled youth to ask for help, then in some sense we also recognize that choosing suicide is not the best choice. We wouldn't want someone seeking help to be advised that suicide is the rational choice if they were humiliated online.

  • Delivis

    Posts: 2332

    Oct 06, 2010 4:55 PM GMT
    I dont entirely disagree with the article but the lack of sympathy on his part is a bit sad, to say the least. Two points I would make.

    1. Yes people get humiliated all the time. Some people handle it better than others. I would not commit suicide if there was a sex tape released about me and presumably this writer would not either.

    But not everyone has the same level of emotional fortitude, not everyone is at the same stage of emotional/mental/social/etc development (the kid was only a teenager), not everyone is under the same set of social or psychogolical pressures (this writer is probably not bombarded with anti-conservative jokes by all of his peers on a daily basis).

    The mistake here is to assume that if someone lacks the emotional strength of maturity than you have then it is entirely their fault and then use that to justify having no sympathy. One part unrealistic and one part heartless.

    2. Sure, we dont know for certain that this was a hate crime. I dont like the term hate crime to begin with but suffice to say we do not know if the kids who videotaped the guy were motivated by any homophobia. For all we know they were very pro sexual equality teens who would have video taped this guy sleeping with women or men and it was just a prank, sans bigotry.

    But firstly, this is highly unlikely; the vast majority of teenagers have some level of sexual prejudice. Nonetheless, fair enough, lets not assume anything.
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    Oct 06, 2010 5:11 PM GMT
    Christian73 saidA couple of things.

    Alex Knepper, who wrote this piece, is a douchebag of the supreme order. His entire article politicizes Tyler's death in the same way he accuses other of doing.

    That said - and this is going to be unpopular - I've been discussing this story with a lot of friends and many of us fail to see how this was motivated by anti-gay hate. Was what they did wrong? Absolutely. But I have yet to see anyone come forward saying either Ravi or Wei were anti-gay or did this because Clementi was gay.

    I'm really not convinced that this had anything do with Clementi being gay. I can easily see this being done to a straight roommate. That doesn't lessen the fact that this kid killed himself over it, and the fact that he was gay and not out to many people may have played a role in that.

    But, I fear that in claiming this was a gay hate crime diminishes those instances in which homophobia is the actual driver.


    I agree. Unless there is some actual proof to the contrary it seems like a fuckwitted "prank" which went badly wrong due to the victim´s sexuality, his closetedness and the way that American society (if laws like DADT and DOMA are seen as in any way defining) is unwelcoming and sanctimonious towards gays. The kid who did the stream was a cunt, but I´m just as angry with a culture which supports DADT in the name of morality and a weak president who won´t stand for equality as I am with a fuckwitted teenager.
  • Vaughn

    Posts: 1880

    Oct 06, 2010 6:05 PM GMT
    He mentioned in his twitter that he was having a gentleman caller. I don't think it was "homophobia" just ignorance and immaturity. Equally dangerous. They weren't necessarily feeling threatened by him, however their prejudice is clear.

    Christian73 saidA couple of things.

    Alex Knepper, who wrote this piece, is a douchebag of the supreme order. His entire article politicizes Tyler's death in the same way he accuses other of doing.

    That said - and this is going to be unpopular - I've been discussing this story with a lot of friends and many of us fail to see how this was motivated by anti-gay hate. Was what they did wrong? Absolutely. But I have yet to see anyone come forward saying either Ravi or Wei were anti-gay or did this because Clementi was gay.

    I'm really not convinced that this had anything do with Clementi being gay. I can easily see this being done to a straight roommate. That doesn't lessen the fact that this kid killed himself over it, and the fact that he was gay and not out to many people may have played a role in that.

    But, I fear that in claiming this was a gay hate crime diminishes those instances in which homophobia is the actual driver.
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    Oct 06, 2010 6:20 PM GMT
    Christian73 saidA couple of things.

    Alex Knepper, who wrote this piece, is a douchebag of the supreme order. His entire article politicizes Tyler's death in the same way he accuses other of doing.

    That said - and this is going to be unpopular - I've been discussing this story with a lot of friends and many of us fail to see how this was motivated by anti-gay hate. Was what they did wrong? Absolutely. But I have yet to see anyone come forward saying either Ravi or Wei were anti-gay or did this because Clementi was gay.

    I'm really not convinced that this had anything do with Clementi being gay. I can easily see this being done to a straight roommate. That doesn't lessen the fact that this kid killed himself over it, and the fact that he was gay and not out to many people may have played a role in that.

    But, I fear that in claiming this was a gay hate crime diminishes those instances in which homophobia is the actual driver.


    Are you serious???? icon_lol.gif
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    Oct 06, 2010 6:52 PM GMT
    "Suicide victim"? Way to sensationalize it and make it seem like it wasn't his fault for becoming an hero. Suicide is a choice. He chose to jump. His roommate invaded his privacy. Not necessarily a hate crime. Yes, a crime, but not necessarily one motivated by hatred of gays.

    Also, I agree with the author.
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    Oct 06, 2010 6:54 PM GMT
    Posting the video online wasn't a hate crime, even though it was classless in every way. It was clearly an invasion of privacy, a breach of trust, harassment, but, it also wasn't a hate crime. Kids do stupid shit to other kids. They're mean. They're heartless. They're stupid. Did they think the kid would jump off the bridge? Of course not. No one understood how head-fucked the kid was.

    The video also did not kill the kid. The video hurts the kids feelings; the kid felt he had no outs; he jumped off the bridge. It's real hard to police against those who have their feelings hurt.

    The kid that jumped off the bridge had issues (likely depression) well before he jumped. He felt there were no other options. Blame his parents. Blame society.

    Do I jump off a bridge when folks call me a fag? No. Most folks don't.

    The suicide was the end result of a kid with deeply rooted issues who was clearly in a state of despair. The video just tipped him over.

    In The Real World, folks are going to say things, and do things, that don't sit well with us, but, most of us won't go kill ourselves because most of us aren't that fucked up in the head.

    It's a sad case, but, as I said, the video was just the final straw. He was sick well before that.

    In folks who are properly adjusted, mentored, parented....we know to seek help...we know all things are not permanent and so on. We don't get tied up in a me,me,me world....We plunge ahead.
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    Oct 06, 2010 6:57 PM GMT
    Art_Deco saidTypical right-wing homophobia. But we can read similar right here on RJ, from the usual anti-gay suspects, parroting talking points just like these. icon_razz.gif


    Please tell one: what where you doing for young gay youth before you grew old and come out?

    What have you done for them this year?

    I myself being open and true about my sexuality from a young age. I was to fight for our liberation, and we won too! As the generations before me, your generation had done nothing at all, they where all still hiding and having their private parties. So it was many of us youth who liberated old men like you too.