Hit the Fuckers-- the Case for the Return of Corporal Punishment

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    Oct 08, 2010 6:03 PM GMT
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/08/4-bullied-teen-deaths-at-_n_755461.html

    from articleThe family watched, she said, as the girls who had tormented Sladjana for months walked up to the casket – and laughed.
    ________
    Most mornings before school, Jennifer Eyring would take Pepto-Bismol to calm her stomach and plead with her mother to let her stay home.
    _________
    "Bullying doesn't start as criminal. They need to be held accountable the very first time they call somebody a gross term," Coloroso says. "That is the beginning of dehumanization."


    Four suicides at one school alone. The news is full of stories lately, mostly gay youths who've given up hope, no fault of their own, in a harsh world that seeks in seemingly every pore of culture to dehumanize their very being.

    This isn't just a lack of empathy, employed by those without compassion, this is a violent assault on the very psyche of those victims of bullying. It's in our culture to be a have rather than a have-not, to be seen rather than not, be visible and visibly cool than not, and if in our culture we have elements that serve to dehumanize, whether it takes the form of bad parenting due to a tradition or perhaps a religious misreading of what love and compassion is there for, these elements go into creating bullies.

    Not enough is done to focus on the bullies. Where are their pictures in the media? Why are they not publicly shamed and made to understand the full gravity of their words and actions? I say not enough time is given to the ones who commit bullying, we spend too much time on what it is that these bullies were looking for in their victims.

    Where are the parents of bullies? What are they doing to stop their kids, and where did they screw up, if they did, in raising their children?

    The consequences are everyday and range from post-traumatic stress disorders to various complexes to real physical damage and yes, death. Bullying is made worse today than it was decades ago. This I will say with confidence.

    Decades ago you weren't followed home and tormented on the computer over the Internet. Decades ago you couldn't be phoned wherever you were and tormented. Bullying is now pervasive, making its consequences that much more grave.

    From Dan Savage's site:
    siteBeing told that they're sinful and that their love offends God, and being told that their relationships are unworthy of the civil right that is marriage (not the religious rite that some people use to solemnize their civil marriages), can eat away at the souls of gay kids. It makes them feel like they're not valued, that their lives are not worth living. And if one of your children is unlucky enough to be gay, the anti-gay bigotry you espouse makes them doubt that their parents truly love them—to say nothing of the gentle "savior" they've heard so much about, a gentle and loving father who will condemn them to hell for the sin of falling in love with the wrong person.

    The children of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or at your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. You may only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, but your children have the option of attacking actual real gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.

    Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not "sinners." Real gay and lesbian children.


    "It Gets Better" isn't the only answer. It concentrates on the victims, and that is important, but what about the bullies? When it comes to bullying, it's not just empathy that is important in defeating it, it's also needed to be made into something explicitly wrong, demonstrably bad in doing, and if empathy doesn't work for bullies, then yes, hit the goddamn kid.

    Corporal punishment has a long history. Hitting even was done to kids during court trials in order to imprint on them the memory of certain judicial details, they could find these kids later and ask them for the details--they wouldn't have forgot. But corporal punishment was used for disciplinary action like behaving in class, and the problem with this was that proper behaviour is subjective. Well what about the dehumanization of other students?

    What about bullying? Is it acceptable then? I say yes, because for all the programs and speeches to talk about empathy and the importance of putting one's self into another's shoes to understand what victimhood is like, can only go so far.

    The boys who taunt with words like "fag" need to be taught that nothing is wrong with being gay and that their words can have powerful consequences. If they continue, cuff them hard enough to see stars.

    The girls who call one of their own a "slut" day in and day out, who throw food at her, have to be slapped hard enough to never do it again.

    Suspensions are rare, due to the idea that bullying is natural. This belief though, is most likely to have been adopted after the administrators underwent bullying in their adolescence, and having lived it, see it as a natural part of growing up. While conflict is natural, inherent even, in our race, there is a difference between conflict bullying. Conflict is between aggressors, and bullying has a victim. Bullying is different today than it was yesterday, it's much more pervasive, and as we move towards a world where gays are accepted for the human beings they are, we must see the common enemy of man as dehumanization.

    Expulsions are almost never employed. A product of that same belief that victimhood is a necessary part of growing up. But it only is in order to learn what victimhood is like. Out of this do we learn compassion for others in the same spot. Bullies are often thought to be victims themselves, of bad parents, broken homes, and personal insecurities, but if they are not made to see that is this very human condition that binds us all in the same boat, then there is no compassion. There is no empathy. And if bullying continues, there must be consequences. Hit the fucker.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 08, 2010 6:35 PM GMT
    I totally support corporal punishment in certain cases. And you thought I was liberal icon_lol.gif
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    Oct 08, 2010 7:32 PM GMT
    I'd say it's a matter of what's right, and not left or right.
  • rnch

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    Oct 08, 2010 7:46 PM GMT
    the penguins (nuns) and their knuckle rapping rulers kept order in my school quite well. icon_exclaim.gif
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    Oct 08, 2010 8:09 PM GMT
    Bully beats up a gay boy.
    School beats up bully.
    Bully beats up gay boy for getting caught by the school beating up the gay boy.

    Corporal punishment is not an effective means to change behavior. Many bullies are so because they are victims of some sort. Their parents may beat them. They may have an older sibling or neighbor that beats them. The school doing the same is not addressing the underlying problem.
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    Oct 08, 2010 9:09 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidBully beats up a gay boy.
    School beats up bully.
    Bully beats up gay boy for getting caught by the school beating up the gay boy.

    Corporal punishment is not an effective means to change behavior. Many bullies are so because they are victims of some sort. Their parents may beat them. They may have an older sibling or neighbor that beats them. The school doing the same is not addressing the underlying problem.


    Of course it doesn´t address the underlying problem. I wasn´t aware that anyone claimed it did.
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    Oct 08, 2010 9:17 PM GMT
    The whole point of punishment (other than in religion) should be to change behavior--no change in behavior means that type of punishment is not working.

    People (and children) only respond to shame. Peer pressure is what's needed.

    Every 7th grader should watch a seminal film or read a book that deals with bullying and homophobia. Then, whenever bullying happens, the bully can be shamed with reference to the film or book.

    Repeat in grades 8-12.
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    Oct 08, 2010 9:21 PM GMT
    Lostboy saidOf course it doesn´t address the underlying problem. I wasn´t aware that anyone claimed it did.


    Then what is the point other than sweet, sweet revenge?
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    Oct 08, 2010 9:58 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie said
    Lostboy saidOf course it doesn´t address the underlying problem. I wasn´t aware that anyone claimed it did.


    Then what is the point other than sweet, sweet revenge?


    Paraphilia? icon_twisted.gif
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    Oct 08, 2010 10:05 PM GMT
    The underlying problem is the lack of compassion, this has a much more... holistic approach, and it's arguable if it can even be "taught" to some people.

    I try to address every other answer before getting to corporal punishment. I understand the logic and agree with the science that bullies are often bullied themselves, but verbal warnings and possible suspensions have proven themselves to be weak answers. Public shaming and yes, even corporal punishment (the sweet, sweet retribution) can stop this behaviour.

    This all works best in conjunction with programs innovating ways to teach empathy. If we can teach kids how to dehumanize we can teach the opposite too.
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    Oct 08, 2010 11:07 PM GMT
    makavelli saidPublic shaming and yes, even corporal punishment (the sweet, sweet retribution) can stop this behaviour.


    But that is just it, it doesn't. Corporal punishment began leaving pubic schools in the 70's and 80's after a butt load of research came out saying that it was not only ineffective at changing behavior but also counterproductive. Violence leads to more violence and it doesn't matter if it is a bully or the school administering it.

    If administrators want to end bullying they need to look at best practices from around the world. If we want to get administrators to look at best practices we need to get groups like GLSEN and PFLAG at PTA meetings and put pressure on them.

    Besides, corporal punishment is illegal in 30 states. The media would have a field day with gay groups pushing for a repeal.
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    Oct 08, 2010 11:50 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidBully beats up a gay boy.
    School beats up bully.
    Bully beats up punishes gay boy for getting caught by the school beating up the gay boy.

    Corporal Any punishment is not an effective means to change behavior. Many bullies are so because they are victims of some sort. Their parents may beat them. They may have an older sibling or neighbor that beats them. The school doing the same is not addressing the underlying problem.
    Fixed, with bold words..
    It doesn't matter if the bully is verbally reprimanded, suspended, or spanked...the bully will use his or her punishment as fuel for more bullying.

    At least with corporal punishment, the bully knows he'll be greeted with physical pain, which tends to be much more effective than saying "don't do that again or I'm sending you home so you can get on the computer and do more bullying."
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    Oct 08, 2010 11:59 PM GMT
    Power in schools (short of physical differences) is concentrated in cliques. So ultimately, socially isolating the bully is the way to go. That means changing minds and ideas, which is much harder to do but more permanent.
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    Oct 09, 2010 12:06 AM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidPower in schools (short of physical differences) is concentrated in cliques. So ultimately, socially isolating the bully is the way to go. That means changing minds and ideas, which is much harder to do but more permanent.
    That seems all well and good, but will only work if the isolation is done in a way that causes the bully to realize his actions are wrong.
    Possibly the best type of isolation would be to publicly promote the idea that bullying is a sign of latent homosexual tendencies that the bully is struggling with. Convince the entire school - including the bully's peers - that the bully is just like the people he's bullying.

    Spread that mindset and watch bullying come to a screeching halt.
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    Oct 09, 2010 2:03 AM GMT
    paulflexes saidAt least with corporal punishment, the bully knows he'll be greeted with physical pain, which tends to be much more effective than saying "don't do that again or I'm sending you home so you can get on the computer and do more bullying."


    Yet another iteration of the same assumption that this thread is full of. But just saying corporal punishment is effective doesn't make it so. Research shows that intervention programs that involve the school, the bully, and the parent(s) is far more effective than slapping a bully. More to the point, research is shown that those who receive corporal punishment are positively correlated with antisocial behavior. Violence begets violence.

    If the goal is to reduce bullying schools should look at best practices. This is not a radical claim. If anyone genuinely cares about reducing bullying they would agree.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14390

    Oct 09, 2010 9:12 PM GMT
    I think that it is time to bring back certain forms of corporal punishment in the public schools. Granted it will not solve the underlying causes of bullying and other disruptive, anti social behavior behavior but it will help restore orderliness in these public schools. The use of corporal punishment should be a last resort when all else fails. Something has to be done to make these schools safer and more orderly for everybody.
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    Oct 09, 2010 9:28 PM GMT
    I think parents need to go back to teaching their children how to stand up for themselves. I'm not saying that they need to go around picking fights, but when someone is bullying you...Knock them in the fucking jaw! They'll learn not to do it again!
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    Oct 10, 2010 7:04 AM GMT
    collegekid2004 saidI think parents need to go back to teaching their children how to stand up for themselves. I'm not saying that they need to go around picking fights, but when someone is bullying you...Knock them in the fucking jaw! They'll learn not to do it again!


    Never as simple, and may be more of a case of what MunchingZombie was talking about in that it becomes a loop. An authority figure, along with remedial courses in compassion, if such a thing is available and applicable, must do the hitting.
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    Oct 10, 2010 7:34 AM GMT
    paulflexes said
    q1w2e3 saidPower in schools (short of physical differences) is concentrated in cliques. So ultimately, socially isolating the bully is the way to go. That means changing minds and ideas, which is much harder to do but more permanent.
    That seems all well and good, but will only work if the isolation is done in a way that causes the bully to realize his actions are wrong.
    Possibly the best type of isolation would be to publicly promote the idea that bullying is a sign of latent homosexual tendencies that the bully is struggling with. Convince the entire school - including the bully's peers - that the bully is just like the people he's bullying.

    Spread that mindset and watch bullying come to a screeching halt.


    that sounds like a great idea LOL
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Oct 10, 2010 8:46 AM GMT
    collegekid2004 saidI think parents need to go back to teaching their children how to stand up for themselves. I'm not saying that they need to go around picking fights, but when someone is bullying you...Knock them in the fucking jaw! They'll learn not to do it again!




    Shy kids and most gay kids don't have it in them to do that.
    Nor do most gay adult males have it in them to do that.
  • kew1

    Posts: 1595

    Oct 10, 2010 8:59 AM GMT
    collegekid2004 saidI think parents need to go back to teaching their children how to stand up for themselves. I'm not saying that they need to go around picking fights, but when someone is bullying you...Knock them in the fucking jaw! They'll learn not to do it again!


    Tried that, worked for about 3 months.
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    Oct 12, 2010 2:22 PM GMT
    Some latest news....

    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/11102010/80/central-longueuil-girl-13-dies-father-slapped-police.html

    "MONTREAL - A 13-year-old Longueuil girl died Saturday night as a result of injuries she sustained Wednesday when police say her 71-year-old father slapped her and she went into a coma.

    Police said Mousaa Sidime, who was arrested for aggravated assault and has been detained since the incident, could now face a more serious charge when he appears in court Tuesday.

    The girl, whom neighbours identified as Noutene Sidime, was found by emergency responders shortly after 6 p.m. Wednesday at her family dwelling on Chambly Rd. in Old Longueuil when the elderly father called police to say he had slapped his daughter, Longueuil police Constable Mark David said.

    “When we got there the girl was bleeding around her nose and she has been in a coma ever since,” David said.

    Shocked neighbours Monday described the girl as a "ray of light" who played happily with their children and used to give hugs to some of the other mothers when she came home from school.

    But neighbour Linda Robert said Noutene had been quieter in the last two years. Her father was demanding, Robert said, and could be heard sometimes yelling at the children or his wife. On the evening that she was struck, neighbours said her father was calling in to recite her prayers, as he often did. She was reluctant to go, as she often was, neighbours said.

    "Even when she was young, she hated going in for her prayers," Robert said.

    David said police were informed Monday that the girl died in hospital about 10 p.m. Saturday.

    He said it will be up to a crown prosecutor to decide if the man will face a more serious charge. He was scheduled to be arraigned on the charge of aggravated assault at Longueuil courthouse Tuesday."

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    Oct 12, 2010 2:37 PM GMT
    I guess none of the schools have learned anything from the Columbine tragedy. It won't be too long before it happens again when a teen, whether gay or not, is pushed too far.
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    Oct 12, 2010 2:47 PM GMT
    Corporal Punishment is ineffective in preventing bullying, because it does not address why bullying occurs in the first place.

    Instead, it creates a culture of violence whereby it's acceptable---expected even---that adults with authority exert that power physically on those who transgress their set of rules. If anything, this legitimizes the exercise of violence. Worse, it can legitimize transgression itself if it is perceived as a "badge of honor". Where educators see themselves as empowering or liberating students [one modality for teaching] it presents an irreconcilable dichotomy: that one cannot empower while using a method of punishment entirely grounded in retribution.

    Bullying occurs, typically, where a bully has been the victim of bullying elsewhere (usually in the home). I think a twofold approach is necessary to stamp it out: (i) make the victims feel supported, and use any means necessary to prevent them from harm. Clear messages from a school administration that affirms the value and worth of LGBT students can help create a culture where LGBT students are not easy targets. Steps to watch for bullying, and root it out early can help. (ii) identifying the root cause of the bullying, i.e. why a particular student became a bully---and take action to remove that.

    The behavioral psychology of children is extremely complex. Such a coarse, inappropriate instrument as corporal punishment is totally inappropriate and worse, counterproductive.
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    Oct 12, 2010 3:03 PM GMT
    Neither I nor my wife ever struck our 2 sons EVER. In fact, one time, when I did tell the youngest, then 6, that his misbehavior might result in a spanking, he asked me quite innocently what a spanking was. He'd certainly never had one before.

    (But then this is the same sly and frighteningly bright kid, who, a year earlier at Christmas, didn't know what getting coal in his stocking meant for being naughty, either. And when I explained what would be in his stocking hanging from the mantle, instead of toys inside it if he didn't behave, he cheerfully replied: "We can have a bar-b-que!" Needless to say I collapsed into laughter. How do you remain stern with such a child?)

    And yet our kids were wonderfully well-behaved, not spoiled nor bratty. I guess we did something right, and it wasn't spanking & slapping them. Plus I assume they just had a lucky mix of genes that helped them to turn out well, ideal kids who were never difficult or a handful for their parents.

    Parents must give their children direction & discipline, but corporal punishment is anathema to me. Big grown-up bullies hitting little kids makes me sick. Just like strong men hitting women is equally revolting to me (we'll overlook for a moment the lesbians who can deck me as quick as look at me).

    If you haven't got the smarts to control your kids without slapping them around then you have no business having kids in the first place. And when we ourselves were stymied by a son who had ADHD and became uncontrollable, our response was not to hit him harder, nor at all.

    Instead we quickly got him to a child psychiatrist/MD, who diagnosed him, and told us the tactics to use with him, that did NOT include corporal punishment. In fact, we were advised that corporal punishment was counterproductive, the WORST thing to use on him. These methods weren't easy, but they did work. After all, this was our own son, not a prison inmate living in our home with us.

    Oddly, my own parents were very physically abusive to me as a child, and emotionally abusive, too, for that matter. And they say that each generation tends to duplicate they own childhood: if you were abused as a child, you will abuse your own children.

    Well, I didn't. The difficulties of my own childhood taught me to deliberately spare my boys from the things I had experienced, not to recreate them.