Yeah, this will start a flame war...

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    Oct 08, 2010 6:43 PM GMT
    But I don't give a shit, this isn't for the 'flamers' - the back and forth 'he said'-'she said' irrelevant ranting and raving.

    This is meant for the few people who may actually watch these documentaries and LEARN something, the flamers will hijack this thread, as they are already dead-set in their ideologies and beliefs.

    The purpose of my posting these two videos is to allow an American audience to be exposed to what they are NOT exposed to: truth about the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

    Most Americans rely upon the news media (especially network television) to deliver "news" and "information." It's all just propaganda and lies.

    This conflict is as much America's fault as it is Israel's. Yes, INNOCENT Israeli citizens (including women and children, even infants) have been and are killed in suicide attacks. This is obviously deplorable and shameful. But it is also a symptom... it's a symptom of a people with no hope, no recourse, totally desperate, and totally oppressed.

    This is about an OCCUPATION. Israel, in violation of the Geneva Conventions for over 40 years, has illegally occupied Palestinian land. They build settlements (which are home to rabidly extremist settlers who are as much terrorists as are the Palestinians who resort to terror). These settlements are ILLEGALLY built on Palestinian land, and are strategically placed to cut off Palestinians from other towns, cities, access to water, resources, and they occupy the most fertile land.

    America is guilty in its rabid support of Israel, not just politically, but financially and militarily. The entire Israeli military structure is subsidized by the U.S., as in, Americans PAY the Israelis to occupy and oppress and kill the Palestinians.

    Terror is a TACTIC, not an ideology. This is NOT an 'ancient' conflict between Jews and Arabs that can never be resolved. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, while European states were imposing anti-semitic policies, Jewish emigrants relocated to Palestine, and actually lived well among the Palestinians. There are still elderly people today in Palestine who remember a time where Jews and Arabs would be neighbours and even look after each other's children. The imposition of a state (Israel), and thus dismantling of another state (Palestine), was an overt imperialist venture, largely orchestrated by Great Britain. When a foreign imperial nation creates a new state in your home and declares you to be a 'people without a home', that's imperialism. America took up the gauntlet following World War II, as it became the global superpower (i.e., the pre-eminent imperial power of the world).

    More than 40 UN resolutions have been taken against Israel, making it the largest violator of human rights in the world, but every single time it comes to vote at the UN, (votes which are most often in condemnation of Israeli AGGRESSION and support of immediate cease-fires), the United States (as a member of the Un Security Council) vetoes every single resolution, protecting Israel for its war crimes and crimes against humanity.

    This is essentially an apartheid state, such as existed in South Africa, except it's actually worse. Palestinians live in a giant prison. Every time a "peace process" was under way, Israel expanded the settlements, expanded the occupation, killed Palestinians, and effectively destroyed the peace process before it could start. The U.S. was equally guilty in this. The U.S. media refer to periods where there are no Israeli deaths, but only Palestinian deaths, as "relative peace." Therefore, when the Palestinians retaliate, the media and governments sweep into fury proclaiming that the Palestinians ended the "relative peace." And Israel's subsequent military onslaught of Palestinian territory, demolishing of homes, displacement of people, bombings, and murder of Palestinians is referred to as "retaliatory" or "defensive."

    We have seen occupations before. Always the occupied are framed as terrorists, illegitimate, and violent extremists. The imperial power is referred to as "defensive" and legitimate. There is no such thing as a legitimate Israeli military response to attacks. Israel has a right - as a state - to defend itself, but not to do so militarily. Israel can defend itself from suicide attacks and terror by withdrawing from the occupied territories and ending the policies that create the terror. It's really just as simple as that. If there is a peaceful option for resolution, there is no legitimacy in military responses.

    This was the nature of the conflicts for liberation, autonomy, and self-determination in India against the British, in America against the British, in Algeria against the French, and all across Asia, Latin America and Africa. When people have no other options, they resort to the tactics of terrorism, because... what else can they do? And not all Palestinians resort to violence, many protest peacefully, but they are still referred to as "terrorists" and the protests are broken up violently. We don't hear about how Palestinian children throw rocks at Israeli tanks occupying their lands, in a david and goliath stand-off, with the Israelis subsequently shooting and killing Palestinian children. This simply isn't discussed.
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    Oct 08, 2010 6:44 PM GMT

    What is the worth of a life? Every life lost is deplorable, whether Israeli or Palestinian. Every life lost is a tragedy. But our governments and our media (especially in America, as even the Israeli media allows for dissent against Israel), have determined that Palestinian lives don't matter, and so people have no understanding of the conflict. Anyone who claims that Israel takes the actions it does (which in fact constitute a slow process of ethnic cleansing) in the name of "defense" has completely discredited themselves as having any comprehension of the conflict. This is about occupation and resistance, not Jews vs. Arabs, or democracy vs. terrorism.

    These are ALL people, and so they should be treated as such. For the benefit of both Palestinians AND Israelis, peace is the only option, but the only way to achieve peace is by America ending its blind imperial support of Israel (just how Rome supported the ancient enclave of Judea), and by Israel withdrawing from the occupied territories. The idea that they will never leave is bullshit. America has the ability (as the global empire and principle financier and supporter of Israel) to force them to end it. When the 'Godfather' says jump, you jump.

    Indonesia's former dictatorship occupied East Timor for 25 years, where they engaged in genocide by killing over 200,000 East Timorese, and were the entire time supported, financed, and armed by America and international business interests. When the public outcry against this brutal regime grew too much, America said to the Indonesians, "leave" and they left. The generals in the Indonesian army claimed they would be in East Timor forever, just as the major Israeli generals have proclaimed, but when the military's source of arms and money says, "no", that's the final word. It's as simple as that.

    This is the reason why the media propaganda in America is so vitriolic on this issue, because it is imperative for Americans to be kept COMPLETELY IGNORANT so that they don't force their government to stop supporting this oppression. Israeli media have more freedom to speak out against Israeli actions, and the major newspaper, Haaretz, often covers the Palestinian resistance to occupation, and refers to it in those terms. This is totally unheard of and unimaginable in the American media. Why? Because Americans need to be kept ignorant and stupid in order for their government to support empire and oppression and ethnic cleansing and terror around the world.

    So here are two documentaries which I think shed some amazing light on this issue.





    Now god knows I will be attacked for this thread, but I think I will refrain from engaging in semantic debates and back-and-forths. This forum is designed for those who perhaps do not understand the conflict, and want to. For those who already are dead-set in their beliefs, I don't care what you have to say. If you are willfully ignorant, that's your problem and it does you no good. So by all means, continue being an ignorant apologist for oppression and empire. And for those who claim that "Jews are bad" or frame this in a Jews vs. Arabs light, making it an "ethnic conflict", a religious war, or engaging in anti-Semitic rhetoric, you too, are blind to the reality of this. This has nothing to do with Israel being a Jewish state, it could be any state doing this, and many states have done this throughout history. The ethnic makeup or religious position of the state is not the issue, the occupation and nature of occupation is the issue.

    So let the flame war commence, let people berate me for speaking out, perhaps even call me anti-Semitic (because you're not allowed to criticize Israel, because that somehow means you are anti-Semitic), even though there are many Jews IN and outside of Israel who are critical of Israel, then suddenly they are proclaimed as "self-hating Jews". Never mind the fact that Israel conducts this occupation more devastating to the occupied than apartheid was to black South Africans, never mind the fact that Israel is building and has built a major wall twice the height and much longer than the Berlin wall around the occupied territories, in a virtual recreation of the Warsaw Ghetto that the Nazis built to contain the Polish Jews. Ignore the facts, live in a bubble, but people are dying every day, and this is just simply, and on any decent HUMAN level --- totally and completely WRONG. So I can be silent no more.
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    Oct 08, 2010 8:45 PM GMT
    Meanwhile Muslims are invading Europe, Africa, and Asia, and even in America we can no longer draw pictures of Mohammad without some crazy guy trying to blow himself up. Oh but Israel, a small little piece of land, is in violation, because Muslims want that land too.

    Muhammad+Drawing.gif

    Why don't the mussies in nearby countries just take in the Palestinians? Oh I know why. Because the Palestinians would rather multiply faster than bacteria, throw rockets into Israel, and then complain when Israel retaliates. Don't worry, there's enough extremist Muslims and complicit Muslims sympathizers in Europe now to soon force the EU to outright condemn Israel and then get rid of the Jews once again.
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    Oct 08, 2010 8:51 PM GMT
    MeOhMy saidNever mind the fact that Israel conducts this occupation more devastating to the occupied than apartheid was to black South Africans


    Nevermind that most Muslim countries either restrict, forbid, or punish you if you are not a Muslim. It's wrong if other people do it, but not if Muslims do it.
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    Oct 08, 2010 8:58 PM GMT
    MeOhMy saidThis is about an OCCUPATION. Israel, in violation of the Geneva Conventions for over 40 years, has illegally occupied Palestinian land. They build settlements (which are home to rabidly extremist settlers who are as much terrorists as are the Palestinians who resort to terror). These settlements are ILLEGALLY built on Palestinian land, and are strategically placed to cut off Palestinians from other towns, cities, access to water, resources, and they occupy the most fertile land.


    They seized that land after it was invaded by neighboring countries and took it. This happens all the time in war. Do you think the shape of countries form and reshape because of peace? I'm living in what used to be Mexico, but is now the United States. Israel's only mistake is not kicking out the people from the land they took. Because they didn't, it would be illogical to wait 40 years and then do it now. So there really is not option other than 2-state solution.
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    Oct 08, 2010 9:22 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    MeOhMy saidBut I don't give a shit, this isn't for the 'flamers' - the back and forth 'he said'-'she said' irrelevant ranting and raving.

    This is meant for the few people who may actually watch these documentaries and LEARN something, the flamers will hijack this thread, as they are already dead-set in their ideologies and beliefs.

    ....



    Well written and well stated post, MeOhMy.

    And yes, Caesarea4 is most likely contacting his DSL provider now and ordering more bandwidth as he prepares to flood this topic with several gigabytes of his usual propaganda.

    Oy vey! icon_rolleyes.gif


    Meanwhile, you're the reason god hates gays.
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    Oct 08, 2010 9:25 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    JAKEBENSON said
    southbeach1500 said
    MeOhMy saidBut I don't give a shit, this isn't for the 'flamers' - the back and forth 'he said'-'she said' irrelevant ranting and raving.

    This is meant for the few people who may actually watch these documentaries and LEARN something, the flamers will hijack this thread, as they are already dead-set in their ideologies and beliefs.

    ....



    Well written and well stated post, MeOhMy.

    And yes, Caesarea4 is most likely contacting his DSL provider now and ordering more bandwidth as he prepares to flood this topic with several gigabytes of his usual propaganda.

    Oy vey! icon_rolleyes.gif


    Meanwhile, you're the reason god hates gays.



    Hateful, frightened, little man.....



    I wouldn't say that to god, because god really hates you. Also, stop posting. You're giving me aids in my eyes.
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    Oct 08, 2010 9:58 PM GMT
    Clearly, and unsurprisingly, the point was missed.

    What I am talking about is something called EMPIRE. That means that when a people are occupied and oppressed, those doing the occupying and oppressing and what is considered... occupiers... and oppressors... let me know if I am going too fast for you.

    The ethnicity or religion is irrelevant in the issue of imperialism; it is but the fine garnish add-on. I don't care if you are Muslim, jewish, Christian... heathen... American, Israeli, Pakistani, Saudi, Egyptian, etc., if you oppress, you are an oppressor.

    Egypt is a brutal dictatorship, Mubarak has been ruling over it with an iron fist for decades. The US subsidizes his military and supports the oppression of his own people. That is clearly wrong. Saudi Arabia is a brutal dynastic dictatorship, supported and subsidized by the Americans. That too, is wrong. President Saleh of Yemen has been in power since 1978, all the time supported by America. Today, American "military aid" to Yemen continually increases by thousands of percentiles annually. Why? Because in Yemen there is a Shi'a rebel movement in the North, a major secession movement in the South, and the central government only controls 1/3 of the country, therefore if the US want there trusted dictator to remain, they must arm him to suppress, repress and kill the liberation struggle.

    The US has a LONG history of repressing liberation movements all over the world, supporting or orchestrating coups, supporting dictatorships, assassinating democratically elected leaders, supporting genocides, using death squads and implementing programs of ethnic cleansing. Why? To destroy liberation, autonomy and self-determination struggles around the world, so as to secure American and Western hegemony over the world's resources. That is empire. It's simple. Israel is simply a part of this system.

    It's not about Jews vs. Arabs, which as I previously explained, if anyone frames the issue in that manner, all they are doing is proclaiming their own ignorance.

    In 1967, Martin Luther King gave a speech entitled, "Beyond Vietnam," where he spoke out against the Vietnam War and the American empire, calling the U.S. "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today." Nothing has changed. As King stated:

    "It seems as if we are on the wrong side of a world revolution."

    That is as true, if not more true, today than it was in 1967. My criticism of Israel is not about framing the issue in the completely idiotic rhetoric of "Jews" and "Arabs" and blah blah same bullshit, no truth debate... my criticism is looking at that conflict and saying: this is wrong, this is an occupation, occupations are wrong, they always were, and they ALWAYS WILL BE.

    But it's not about an exclusive focus on Israel-Palestine. This is happening everywhere, and everywhere the 'Godfather' American Empire is supporting the repression of liberation struggles, autonomy and self-determination. This is a conflict which is a symptom of a wider problem and issue of imperialism. You cannot understand this conflict unless you place it in the global context. America is an empire, and Israel is a willing pawn of the American empire. But so are Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan (although this is changing, thus we see the American effort to destabilize Pakistan, as they are at war with Pakistan), Yemen, and other brutal repressive regimes all over the world.



    Watch this video, and replace "Vietnam" and "Vietnamese" with Palestinian, Iraqi, Afghani, Pakistani, Yemeni, Honduran, Ecuadorean, etc etc etc.
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    Oct 09, 2010 4:14 AM GMT
    MeOhMy saidClearly, and unsurprisingly, the point was missed.

    What I am talking about is something called EMPIRE. That means that when a people are occupied and oppressed, those doing the occupying and oppressing and what is considered... occupiers... and oppressors... let me know if I am going too fast for you.


    When Muslims took over and occupied countries, the Jews were forced to flee or convert. Now that Israel has this bit of land that's getting out of control with population as Palestinians are making babies 9 per family, they're like "oh shit what do we do." But notice the Jews are not forcing Muslims to convert, or forcing them to flee, and aren't "eradicating" them by any means. 20% of Israel (not the Palestinian territory) is not Jewish. Muslims are free to worship in Israel. Jews will be killed if they're found in Gaza. Empire my ass. The Muslim empire is spreading while the Jewish empire is merely trying to exist.

    And of course I didn't read your point. Just skimmed it, killed myself, skimmed a little more, probably jacked off, then replied. You're not going too fast for me, I just don't care. Ennui buddy. And most people on this site don't care. We already went through the boring side of the debate two years ago, neither party agreed, we all threw insults at each other, and now we're just bored of the subject. But welcome to 2008. You might as well talk about how much you hate Bush, love Obama, and elaborate on how the environment should be saved while we're on the subject of hackneyed controversies from the oughts.

    I hate Ultra Orthodox Jews and I hate most Palestinians. But I know the only solution, which both sides won't like at all, is a two-state solution. Since that won't work, we're just going to go to war. I'm really on your side since we both want this shit to stop, I just wanted to start a flame war too. =)
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    Oct 09, 2010 4:17 AM GMT
    Speaking of dictatorship and empire, let's take a look at China.
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    Oct 09, 2010 4:45 AM GMT
    If the Israelis would let Pslestine form a contiguous country, something might get settled ... But the only "settled" the Israelis want are their settlements in territory where they shouldn't be.

    The reason we got attacked on 9/11 is because we have been unfairly biased in supporting Israel.
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    Oct 09, 2010 6:07 AM GMT
    Caslon16000 saidThe reason we got attacked on 9/11 is because we have been unfairly biased in supporting Israel.


    No, the reason we were attacked is because there's a surfeit of poor malnourished extremists that use terrorism to get their "enemy" to cave in and support them. Don't get it twisted betch. Nothing the US did warranted this.

    If I killed someone, do I get off the hook by saying, "well they pissed me off because I disagree with them."

    If these terrorists that rammed planes into the towers were Palestinians then I could understand that they're seeking revenger. But none of them were. They were Muslims from other countries that had nothing to do with Israel.

    And fuck Palestine. They were cheering after the planes rammed into the towers.
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    Oct 09, 2010 8:02 AM GMT
    great thread! thank you for posting.
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    Oct 09, 2010 8:09 AM GMT
    Israel > Hamas

    Nuff said.

    See also: jihadwatch.org
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    Oct 09, 2010 8:18 AM GMT
    Fearthefall saidIsrael > Hamas

    Nuff said.

    See also: jihadwatch.org


    See also: Reality.
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    Oct 09, 2010 8:42 AM GMT
    MeOhMy said
    See also: Reality.


    Just read Jihad Watch and maybe you'll see that Islamic extremism, as is frequently seen in Palestine, is a threat, more so than the Israelis keeping a little bit of land.
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    Oct 09, 2010 8:43 AM GMT
    *insert inaudible drunken rage text here*
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    Oct 09, 2010 9:14 AM GMT
    JAKEBENSON saidMeanwhile Muslims are invading Europe, Africa, and Asia


    You really expect anyone to believe you on this?
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    Oct 09, 2010 2:23 PM GMT
    JAKEBENSON said
    southbeach1500 said
    JAKEBENSON said
    southbeach1500 said
    MeOhMy saidBut I don't give a shit, this isn't for the 'flamers' - the back and forth 'he said'-'she said' irrelevant ranting and raving.

    This is meant for the few people who may actually watch these documentaries and LEARN something, the flamers will hijack this thread, as they are already dead-set in their ideologies and beliefs.

    ....



    Well written and well stated post, MeOhMy.

    And yes, Caesarea4 is most likely contacting his DSL provider now and ordering more bandwidth as he prepares to flood this topic with several gigabytes of his usual propaganda.

    Oy vey! icon_rolleyes.gif


    Meanwhile, you're the reason god hates gays.



    Hateful, frightened, little man.....



    I wouldn't say that to god, because god really hates you. Also, stop posting. You're giving me aids in my eyes.


    LOL!
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    Oct 09, 2010 3:30 PM GMT
    MeOhMy said...This is about an OCCUPATION. Israel, in violation of the Geneva Conventions for over 40 years, has illegally occupied Palestinian land. They build settlements (which are home to rabidly extremist settlers who are as much terrorists as are the Palestinians who resort to terror). These settlements are ILLEGALLY built on Palestinian land, and are strategically placed to cut off Palestinians from other towns, cities, access to water, resources, and they occupy the most fertile land.

    I don't want to in any way minimize the suffering of the Palestinian people, but do want to question your assertion that the occupation is illegal with respect to the Geneva Conventions or other recognized international laws. If my understanding of history is correct, Israel seized control of the land as a result of a war that Israel did not start. If you look at the national boundaries in Europe both today and how they evolved in the last century, I believe many were established as the result of military action, yet they are still recognized and not considered illegal.
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    Oct 09, 2010 5:36 PM GMT
    KardioKing saidJesus christ... is this thread a joke?!?!? Yeah.... the united states is an imperialistic hungry nation looking to gain GLOBAL CONTROL.... MUAHAHAHAHAH!! Seriously dude.... are you fucking insane?!?! It's called capitalism and globization... you fucking conspiracy theorist obsessed freak. Get the fuck over it. China will be the next global power due to the sheer power of labor fueled economy... their economy has been growing by the percentile for some years now. Imperialism doesn't exist anymore... you stupid fucking canadian faggot... God I wish your face was within fist range. I don't know why but this thread and your face, combined with my drunkeness has evoked such horrible horrible RAGE in me.... FUCK, I HATE YOU.


    No, you're a joke. And hate me all you want, I don't even know or care who you are, so your hatred is irrelevant to me. Also, it simply displays how moronic you are, in that you come across something you disagree with (or more accurately, don't understand), and thus, you must HATE it. All that you explained in your post, besides the fact that you have a lobotomized understanding of geopolitics, is that you have a very closed mind. Your name calling is, frankly, pathetic, but really it's just because you need to label me and attack me personally, because it's more convenient for you than actually disproving me or ... thinking. So, carry on.
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    Oct 09, 2010 5:43 PM GMT
    Fearthefall said
    MeOhMy said
    See also: Reality.


    Just read Jihad Watch and maybe you'll see that Islamic extremism, as is frequently seen in Palestine, is a threat, more so than the Israelis keeping a little bit of land.


    Maybe you should think about growing a brain. Or did you hear, there is a boogyman on the lose, hiding under your bed! Be afraid! and then give up all your freedoms and liberties to the government to "protect you" from this mythical, invisible foreign global everywhere-enemy... oh and don't forget... we have to fight this 'enemy' all over the world, it's a war AGAINST terror... but to fight terror, we must USE terror. Because the best way to make people NOT hate you, is to invade their countries, kill their families, steal their resources, and destroy their futures...

    Seriously. Grow up.
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    Oct 09, 2010 5:54 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    MeOhMy said...This is about an OCCUPATION. Israel, in violation of the Geneva Conventions for over 40 years, has illegally occupied Palestinian land. They build settlements (which are home to rabidly extremist settlers who are as much terrorists as are the Palestinians who resort to terror). These settlements are ILLEGALLY built on Palestinian land, and are strategically placed to cut off Palestinians from other towns, cities, access to water, resources, and they occupy the most fertile land.

    I don't want to in any way minimize the suffering of the Palestinian people, but do want to question your assertion that the occupation is illegal with respect to the Geneva Conventions or other recognized international laws. If my understanding of history is correct, Israel seized control of the land as a result of a war that Israel did not start. If you look at the national boundaries in Europe both today and how they evolved in the last century, I believe many were established as the result of military action, yet they are still recognized and not considered illegal.


    I should have clarified. Specifically, it's the Fourth Geneva Convention that Israel is in violation of:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1682640.stm
    http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/108/2001
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/07/israel-palestine-eu-report-jerusalem
    http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/57JRGW

    Article in Haaretz, a major Israeli publication:

    "The state uses its school system, army, language and 'heritage' to blind the children of Israel to the truth."

    For 43 years, Israel has been ruled by people who have refused to see reality. They speak of "united Jerusalem," knowing that no other country has recognized the annexation of the eastern part of the city. They sent 300,000 people to settle land they know does not belong to them. As early as September 1967, Theodor Meron, then the legal adviser to the Foreign Ministry, said there was a categorical prohibition against civilian settlement in occupied territories, under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Meron - who would become the president of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, and is now a member of the Appeals Chamber for both that court and a similar one for Rwanda - wrote to prime minister Levi Eshkol in a top-secret memorandum: "I fear there is great sensitivity in the world today about the whole question of Jewish settlement in the occupied territories, and any legal arguments that we try to find will not remove the heavy international pressure, from friendly states as well."

    For 43 years, the Israeli public - schoolchildren, TV viewers, Knesset members and Supreme Court judges - have been living in the darkness of the occupation, which some call liberation. The school system and its textbooks, the army and its maps, the language and the "heritage" have all been mobilized to help keep Israelis blind to the truth.
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/the-plague-of-darkness-has-struck-modern-israelites-1.266784
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    Oct 09, 2010 7:10 PM GMT
    Caslon16000 saidIf the Israelis would let Pslestine form a contiguous country, something might get settled ... But the only "settled" the Israelis want are their settlements in territory where they shouldn't be.

    The reason we got attacked on 9/11 is because we have been unfairly biased in supporting Israel.


    This was quite telling...
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    Oct 09, 2010 7:42 PM GMT
    MeOhMy: Why do you hate America, Israel, capitalism, and all that is right with the world?

    Seriously, go read Jihad Watch, Dhimmi Watch, and Pamela Geller's Atlas Shrugged and tell me your views on Islam have not changed.