Columbus Day; Reconsider

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 4:54 AM GMT
  • metta

    Posts: 39099

    Oct 13, 2010 8:19 AM GMT


    a000db49bf43e9fd186fd1d998e26452.png
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 8:20 AM GMT
    So much white guilt it burns...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 8:44 AM GMT
    From the video: "Columbus set the stage for the slave trade."

    Columbus set the stage for slave trade my ass. "Lincoln set the stage for rap music" is equally valid because Lincoln allowed Black people to be free, and then somewhere down the road a million irrelevant things happened, then rap music evolved. But Lincoln set the stage really because if Black people were slaves still they wouldn't be making rap music. So when we think about Lincoln we should really be thinking about rap music. Lincoln is the source of good hip-hop too. Likewise when we think about Columbus we should really think about slaves because he's the reason why slaves existed in America.

    Columbus didn't set the stage. Stupid arrogant haughty Europeans set the stage by bringing slaves over and continuing the trend. Europeans decided to pillage everything in sight. Moreover, there was an imminent need for slaves at the time (15th & 16th centuries) because more work was required on this new land than there were people to handle it. So if anything, if more Columbus's set sail for the Americas then we'd have less slaves. Shit, I can even argue that Africans set the stage by keeping slaves of other African villages that lost during battles and then sold those slaves to Europeans. But oh Columbus...it's really his fault for other people killing Indians and having slaves over the course of 400 years. Custards last stand: it was really Columbus's fault. I'm just going to look down on the celebration of discovering every country for that matter because ever country has gone though a period (or more) of slavery, genocide, or general dismay. Germany? Well fuck that country because it's discovery eventually lead to the Holocaust! Japan? Oh hell no, they fought all the fucking time after they discovered that island. And don't even get me started on Russia.

    In conclusion, this video reeks of ghey. Columbus Day is a retarded holiday in and of itself because Columbus landed on Dominican Republic, not the United States. It's the discovery of North and South America. That should be enough to make this day not a national holiday. But I'm not convinced that Columbus Day is some arrogant celebration of white pride and minority suppression. If anything, Columbus Day is the start of spreading infectious Christianity to two more continents: dumbing down natives by converting them into Christians. So if anything, minorities should rebel against Christianity. But even Christianity today is far less destructive than what it was five or even two centuries ago.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 9:07 AM GMT
    "They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many
    other things, which they
    exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded
    everything they owned... .
    They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They
    ...would make fine servants....
    With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we
    want.."

    - Christopher Columbus
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 9:20 AM GMT
    JAKEBENSON saidFrom the video: "Columbus set the stage for the slave trade."

    Columbus set the stage for slave trade my ass. "Lincoln set the stage for rap music" is equally valid because Lincoln allowed Black people to be free, and then somewhere down the road a million irrelevant things happened, then rap music evolved. But Lincoln set the stage really because if Black people were slaves still they wouldn't be making rap music. So when we think about Lincoln we should really be thinking about rap music. Lincoln is the source of good hip-hop too. Likewise when we think about Columbus we should really think about slaves because he's the reason why slaves existed in America.

    Columbus didn't set the stage. Stupid arrogant haughty Europeans set the stage by bringing slaves over and continuing the trend. Europeans decided to pillage everything in sight. Moreover, there was an imminent need for slaves at the time (15th & 16th centuries) because more work was required on this new land than there were people to handle it. So if anything, if more Columbus's set sail for the Americas then we'd have less slaves. Shit, I can even argue that Africans set the stage by keeping slaves of other African villages that lost during battles and then sold those slaves to Europeans. But oh Columbus...it's really his fault for other people killing Indians and having slaves over the course of 400 years. Custards last stand: it was really Columbus's fault. I'm just going to look down on the celebration of discovering every country for that matter because ever country has gone though a period (or more) of slavery, genocide, or general dismay. Germany? Well fuck that country because it's discovery eventually lead to the Holocaust! Japan? Oh hell no, they fought all the fucking time after they discovered that island. And don't even get me started on Russia.

    In conclusion, this video reeks of ghey. Columbus Day is a retarded holiday in and of itself because Columbus landed on Dominican Republic, not the United States. It's the discovery of North and South America. That should be enough to make this day not a national holiday. But I'm not convinced that Columbus Day is some arrogant celebration of white pride and minority suppression. If anything, Columbus Day is the start of spreading infectious Christianity to two more continents: dumbing down natives by converting them into Christians. So if anything, minorities should rebel against Christianity. But even Christianity today is far less destructive than what it was five or even two centuries ago.


    Your argument is merely a structure of blame and lacks any rational warrant my friend. Every paragraph seems to have stemmed away from the issue at hand and seems to be an angry opinionated rant.
    This is not a racial issue. its an issue of whether Columbus Day should continue to be a holiday despite the facts that he commited heinous crimes against the native peoples of this land we now call home.
    That is all. you feeling 'guilty' or 'threatened' by the video arises from your own insecurities.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 9:52 AM GMT
    theAutonomous said
    Your argument is merely a structure of blame and lacks any rational warrant my friend. Every paragraph seems to have stemmed away from the issue at hand and seems to be an angry opinionated rant.
    This is not a racial issue. its an issue of whether Columbus Day should continue to be a holiday despite the facts that he commited heinous crimes against the native peoples of this land we now call home.
    That is all. you feeling 'guilty' or 'threatened' by the video arises from your own insecurities.


    First of all, I'm not your friend, pal. And I'm not your pal, buddy. And I'm not your buddy, friend. Second of all, attacking an argument by not providing any counter-arguments other than "you seem angry and you are off-topic (with no justification)," doesn't make your viewpoint more cogent. It just makes me aware that you don't like my viewpoint.

    But it's hilarious that you took me seriously. So I'll take you serious for a second. Now pay attention:

    Your only rational corroboration that Columbus Day is apocryphal is that Christopher Columbus created "crimes". You completely neglected the fallacy that Columbus led way to slavery in the video. But let's just consider that you have a point about Columbus creating "crimes." So? Just because Bill Clinton cheated on his wife, it doesn't mean we can't laud him for his accomplishments. Are you saying that because he may have killed some islanders that we shouldn't care about the origins of the Americas? Columbus never even landed in the United States so I have no idea what the hell Native Americans are upset about. Furthermore, I have no idea why you think Christopher Columbus did anything to what you call "home." You live in the United States. Again, no Columbus happened there. Moreover, Christopher Columbus has nothing to do with European domination and suppression over Native Americans and Africans, which is the real issue. If there's any anger it should be aimed at European influence, Christian influence, Spanish influence, corrupt governments, but not because one douchebag discovered the Americas. And I've already said this day is not deserving of a National Holiday. It's completely ambivalent to me, because from this discovery both a myriad of good and bad things happened over centuries.

    To link a direct and cardinal path from discovery of land to destruction of indigenous people and disenfranchisement of Africans is a very narrow view. It's still important, but it is so loosely connected to the discovery of the Americas it's virtually irrelevant. My mom gave birth to me. She is not responsible for what I do. Christopher Columbus showed a bunch of imperious self-righteous Spanish Christians new land. He is not responsible for their actions.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 10:12 AM GMT
    JAKEBENSON said
    theAutonomous said
    Your argument is merely a structure of blame and lacks any rational warrant my friend. Every paragraph seems to have stemmed away from the issue at hand and seems to be an angry opinionated rant.
    This is not a racial issue. its an issue of whether Columbus Day should continue to be a holiday despite the facts that he commited heinous crimes against the native peoples of this land we now call home.
    That is all. you feeling 'guilty' or 'threatened' by the video arises from your own insecurities.


    First of all, I'm not your friend, pal. And I'm not your pal, buddy. And I'm not your buddy, friend. Second of all, attacking an argument by not providing any counter-arguments other than "you seem angry and you are off-topic (with no justification)," doesn't make your viewpoint more cogent. It just makes me aware that you don't like my viewpoint.

    But it's hilarious that you took me seriously. So I'll take you serious for a second. Now pay attention:

    Your only rational corroboration that Columbus Day is apocryphal is that Christopher Columbus created "crimes". You completely neglected the fallacy that Columbus led way to slavery in the video. But let's just consider that you have a point about Columbus creating "crimes." So? Just because Bill Clinton cheated on his wife, it doesn't mean we can't laud him for his accomplishments. Are you saying that because he may have killed some islanders that we shouldn't care about the origins of the Americas? Columbus never even landed in the United States so I have no idea what the hell Native Americans are upset about. Furthermore, I have no idea why you think Christopher Columbus did anything to what you call "home." You live in the United States. Again, no Columbus happened there. Moreover, Christopher Columbus has nothing to do with European domination and suppression over Native Americans and Africans, which is the real issue. If there's any anger it should be aimed at European influence, Christian influence, Spanish influence, corrupt governments, but not because one douchebag discovered the Americas. And I've already said this day is not deserving of a National Holiday. It's completely ambivalent to me, because from this discovery both a myriad of good and bad things happened over centuries.

    To link a direct and cardinal path from discovery of land to destruction of indigenous people and disenfranchisement of Africans is a very narrow view. It's still important, but it is so loosely connected to the discovery of the Americas it's virtually irrelevant. My mom gave birth to me. She is not responsible for what I do. Christopher Columbus showed a bunch of imperious self-righteous Spanish Christians new land. He is not responsible for their actions.


    *sigh* 'direct and cardinal path';

    "They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many
    other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned... .
    They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features....
    They would make fine servants....
    With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we
    want.."

    - Christopher Columbus

    http://www.reconsidercolumbusday.org/Home.html
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 10:26 AM GMT
    Whats funny is some keep persisting that the 'discovery' of America is being overlooked in this issue. May i point out that America was never 'discovered'. People lived here already. What the ignorant see as discovery- the indeginous peoples of this land and its surrounding islands see as invasion.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 10:31 AM GMT
    theAutonomous,

    I like how your counter-argument is entirely composed of:

    1. possibly suggesting that my use of two words I used is trite (nothing to do with the topic at all)

    2: quoting Christopher Columbus to show that he was in favor for servants (Spanish people were servants too), which has nothing to do with slavery in the United States and nothing to do with wiping out the Indigenous Americans in the United States.

    I really shouldn't be arguing anymore since you've shown a clear lack of interest or intelligence in actually attacking the pith of the issue. But I'll just further address my stance by attacking your two spurious points.

    theAutonomous said*sigh* 'direct and cardinal path';

    I'm not even sure if this should be treated as part of your debate, but let's consider it. You are likely suggesting I don't know what those words mean or the use of the second is trite. "Direct" is not necessarily of basic importance, which is what cardinal means. I meant to convey direct and basic, but the word "basic" doesn't convey accurately what I meant. But "of basic importance" is a secondary definition of the word "cardinal." So if you didn't know that I won't hold it against you. Did you get all this?


    theAutonomous said
    "They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many
    other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned... .
    They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features....
    They would make fine servants....
    With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we
    want.."

    - Christopher Columbus


    Yes and none of those fine servants Columbus was eying resided in the United States. The Dominican Republic and nearby islands should be upset over this. But instead they have historical monuments erected to remember Columbus and the discovery of those lands, because they focus on the crux of the holiday: the start of a new civilization in which they are a part of today.

    Now let's recap the flaw in your argument: I said Christopher Columbus didn't give rise to slavery of Africans. But your quote of him suggests he did. The flaw is he used them as servants, which were common in Spain at the time. So I'm not sure why you're upset that Christopher Columbus found more "servants"? Moreover, he didn't used Africans as slaves. So he's not setting the standard there. Don't forget, the almost genocide of Native Americans in the U.S. has nothing to do with Christopher Columbus. He never made it there. Just a bunch of Spaniards, French, English, Dutch, and Germans.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 11:05 AM GMT
    JAKEBENSON saidtheAutonomous,

    theAutonomous said
    "They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many
    other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned... .
    They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features....
    They would make fine servants....
    With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we
    want.."

    - Christopher Columbus


    Yes and none of those fine servants Columbus was eying resided in the United States. The Dominican Republic and nearby islands should be upset over this. But instead they have historical monuments erected to remember Columbus and the discovery of those lands, because they focus on the crux of the holiday: the start of a new civilization in which they are a part of today.

    Now let's recap the flaw in your argument: I said Christopher Columbus didn't give rise to slavery of Africans. But your quote of him suggests he did. The flaw is he used them as servants, which were common in Spain at the time. So I'm not sure why you're upset that Christopher Columbus found more "servants"? Moreover, he didn't used Africans as slaves. So he's not setting the standard there. Don't forget, the almost genocide of Native Americans in the U.S. has nothing to do with Christopher Columbus. He never made it there. Just a bunch of Spaniards, French, English, Dutch, and Germans.



    Ah! sir but he set the stage. Fact is Columbus invaded and took over the carribean and set forth the chain of events for the eventual seige of 'america' and her native peoples. By taking peoples of the carribean as slaves- he introduced that investment to other european nations that followed.
    This revival of slavery at the close of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the system of Negro slavery was due to the commercial expansion of Portugal in the fifteenth century. That expansion was made possible by Columbus's 'discovery'.
    The main issue and question at hand is:
    By honoring Christopher Columbus Day; we treat him as a hero.
    Is he a hero?
    By honoring Christopher Columbus Day; its like a slap in the face to native americans and the carribean's indeginous peoples. They've expressed this.
    In elementary schools they project him like a fantastic adventurer with this honor of discovering 'America', while the native americans are portrayed as emotionless beings.
    But what the ignorant see as discovery,
    the natives see as invasion and pillage.
    That is the question here;
    Should we honor such a day?
    Or honor the rich legacy of resistance to the injustices that followed Columbus's 'discovery' to convey some appreciation for the diverse indigenous cultures of this hemisphere, and to reflect on what this all means for us today.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 2:05 PM GMT


    Oh my, what a pile of misinformation.

    Here:

    "In Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica the most common forms of slavery were those of prisoners-of-war and debtors. People unable to pay back a debt could be sentenced to work as a slave to the person owed until the debt was worked off. Warfare was important to the Maya society, because raids on surrounding areas provided the victims required for human sacrifice, as well as slaves for the construction of temples.[181] Most victims of human sacrifice were prisoners of war or slaves.[182] According to Aztec writings, as many as 84,000 people were sacrificed at a temple inauguration in 1487.[183] Slavery was not usually hereditary; children of slaves were born free. In the Inca Empire, workers were subject to a mita in lieu of taxes which they paid by working for the government. Each ayllu, or extended family, would decide which family member to send to do the work. It is unclear if this labor draft or corvée counts as slavery. The Spanish adopted this system, particularly for their silver mines in Bolivia.[184]"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery

    -Doug
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 2:30 PM GMT
    Fearthefall saidSo much white guilt it burns...


    If you google white guilt, many good articles, such as the one below. Basically a self-serving, self-indulgent position espoused by the left.

    http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/12/prisoners-of-white-guilt/
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 2:36 PM GMT
    White Guilt - "a belief, often subconscious, among white liberals that being white is, in and of itself, a great transgression against the rest of the world for which one must spend their life making atonement. It is often exemplified by embracing the cultures and philosophies of various other ethnic groups while neglecting one's own roots." -- urbandictionary
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 3:41 PM GMT
    Good god, you two (socal and mock), can you not post on a topic WITHOUT involving your personal political gripes? icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 3:45 PM GMT
    JAKEBENSON said
    theAutonomous said
    Your argument is merely a structure of blame and lacks any rational warrant my friend. Every paragraph seems to have stemmed away from the issue at hand and seems to be an angry opinionated rant.
    This is not a racial issue. its an issue of whether Columbus Day should continue to be a holiday despite the facts that he commited heinous crimes against the native peoples of this land we now call home.
    That is all. you feeling 'guilty' or 'threatened' by the video arises from your own insecurities.


    First of all, I'm not your friend, pal. And I'm not your pal, buddy. And I'm not your buddy, friend.


    did no one catch these amazing quote haha icon_lol.gificon_lol.gificon_lol.gif

    now where's my gumball . . .
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 3:46 PM GMT
    meninlove said Good god, you two (socal and mock), can you not post on a topic WITHOUT involving your personal political gripes? icon_rolleyes.gif

    I don't know if I would say it is a gripe. The fact is the thread topic is inherently, and to some, perhaps subconsciously, espousing a political position. FTF, Mock, and I are only pointing out the association, as it may not be obvious to all.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 3:48 PM GMT


    There doesn't have to be an association. You two are coming across as broken records.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 3:50 PM GMT
    meninlove said

    There doesn't have to be an association. You two are coming across as broken records.


    There is an association. Do some research and make your own conclusions.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 3:52 PM GMT
    Look, feeling that whites are responsible for a lot of racism is not just a liberal thing - it spans all political stripes, so is a rather useless point.

    (oh god I just got sucked into the vacuum of socal and mock)

    icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 4:03 PM GMT
    meninlove said Look, feeling that whites are responsible for a lot of racism is not just a liberal thing - it spans all political stripes, so is a rather useless point.

    (oh god I just got sucked into the vacuum of socal and mock)

    icon_lol.gif


    But it's false. Throughout history there has been mass ethnic cleansing in all cultures across Africa and Asia, you just aren't taught about it in western education. You should read about it some time, it's shocking. You've also been programmed to think that it's somehow not based on equally hateful racial prejudice because the evil-doers aren't white.

    Do you honestly think blacks are the only ones who have suffered with slavery at the hands of whites? How about the millions of slaves used by cultures spanning millenia? Maybe the modern day Egyptians should do more for Israel to make up for the hundreds of years that they were in slavery at the hands of their ancestors? Why is it that only whites are responsible for past evils but everyone else gets off the hook for evils that their ancestors have committed?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 4:08 PM GMT
    theAutonomous saidWhats funny is some keep persisting that the 'discovery' of America is being overlooked in this issue. May i point out that America was never 'discovered'. People lived here already. What the ignorant see as discovery- the indeginous peoples of this land and its surrounding islands see as invasion.


    What you are seeing are the effects of "White Privileged" In other words...shit isn't relevant unless a majority of white people deem it so.

    American history is so sanitized and whitewashed that its disgusting.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 4:10 PM GMT
    Fearthefall saidSo much white guilt it burns...


    So much white privilege...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 4:12 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    meninlove said Look, feeling that whites are responsible for a lot of racism is not just a liberal thing - it spans all political stripes, so is a rather useless point.

    (oh god I just got sucked into the vacuum of socal and mock)

    icon_lol.gif


    But it's false. Throughout history there has been mass ethnic cleansing in all cultures across Africa and Asia, you just aren't taught about it in western education. You should read about it some time, it's shocking. You've also been programmed to think that it's somehow not based on equally hateful racial prejudice because the evil-doers aren't white.

    Do you honestly think blacks are the only ones who have suffered with slavery at the hands of whites? How about the millions of slaves used by cultures spanning millenia? Maybe the modern day Egyptians should do more for Israel to make up for the hundreds of years that they were in slavery at the hands of their ancestors?

    The whole point of white guilt is not necessarily repudiating historical white involvement in racism, but rather the notion that the progress to overcome racism will never be complete and that atonement must continually drive all policies indefinitely into the future. I think that would be understood if only some would do some research before jumping to conclusions.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 13, 2010 4:15 PM GMT
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    theAutonomous saidWhats funny is some keep persisting that the 'discovery' of America is being overlooked in this issue. May i point out that America was never 'discovered'. People lived here already. What the ignorant see as discovery- the indeginous peoples of this land and its surrounding islands see as invasion.


    What you are seeing are the effects of "White Privileged" In other words...shit isn't relevant unless a majority of white people deem it so.

    American history is so sanitized and whitewashed that its disgusting.


    What about Asian privilege? Did you know they are the wealthiest demographic in America percentage-wise?

    Also, why aren't you worried about Japanese privilege in Japan (they won't even let other ethnicites in their country let alone giving them positions of money and power)? Or Chinese privilege in China? You seem to have no problem with the fact that every other country in the world occupied by non-whites keeps 100% of the wealth and positions of power within their own ethnicity, but yet you have a a conniption fit if 70% of wealth in western countries happens to be had by whites?

    You are so full of hypocrisy it's sad. If this was truly a moral matter of outrage than you would be consistent, but you aren't which means you're just hateful of white people.