"...straight out of George Orwell's novel, "1984"."

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 17, 2010 5:41 PM GMT
    Discovery of GPS tracker becomes privacy issue

    Yasir Afifi, a 20-year-old computer salesman and community college student, took his car in for an oil change earlier this month and his mechanic spotted an odd wire hanging from the undercarriage.

    The wire was attached to a strange magnetic device that puzzled Afifi and the mechanic. They freed it from the car and posted images of it online, asking for help in identifying it.

    Two days later, FBI agents arrived at Afifi's Santa Clara apartment and demanded the return of their property — a global positioning system tracking device now at the center of a raging legal debate over privacy rights.

    One federal judge wrote that the widespread use of the device was straight out of George Orwell's novel, "1984". ...

    Law enforcement advocates for the devices say GPS can eliminate time-consuming stakeouts and old-fashioned "tails" with unmarked police cars. The technology had a starring role in the HBO cops-and-robbers series "The Wire" and police use it to track every type of suspect — from terrorist to thieves stealing copper from air conditioners. ...

    Legal scholars predict the U.S. Supreme Court will ultimately resolve the issue since so many courts disagree.

    George Washington University law professor Orin Kerr said the issue boils down to public vs. private. As long as the GPS devices are attached to vehicles on public roads, Kerr believes the U.S. Supreme Court will decide no warrant is needed. To decide otherwise, he said, would ignore a long line of previous 4th Amendment decisions allowing for warrantless searches as long as they're conducted on public property.

    "The historic line is that public surveillance is not covered by the 4th Amendment," Kerr said.

    All of which makes Afifi's lawyer pessimistic that he has much of a chance to file a successful lawsuit challenging the FBI's actions. Afifi is represented by Zahra Billoo of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the country's largest Islamic civil rights group. ..."

    http://hosted2.ap.org/COGRA/d30f3f32e9d849979111e891380b64db/Article_2010-10-16-US-GPS-Tracking-Warrants/id-eaf97b7477a64d50905afc98abf39116


    I dont like this without a warrant at all.

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    Oct 17, 2010 7:21 PM GMT
    I'm sure Afifi has been posting on some jihadi forums or so, or stood out purchasing questionable literature.

    In a country with almost 250 million people, I'm sure they only track whoever is worth tracking.
  • Celticmusl

    Posts: 4330

    Oct 17, 2010 7:30 PM GMT
    It's not "the gubberment" as someone pointed out. It is ONE branch of the government seeming to bypass all points of due process to spy on a citizen of the U.S. At least, I'm assuming he is a citizen?
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    Oct 17, 2010 7:36 PM GMT
    Celticmusl saidIt's not "the gubberment" as someone pointed out. It is ONE branch of the government seeming to bypass all points of due process to spy on a citizen of the U.S. At least, I'm assuming he is a citizen?


    Who cares, is a fundamentalist muslim with a US passport any less dangerous than one without? Quite the opposite I think.
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    Oct 17, 2010 7:37 PM GMT
    If this is the worst police state tactics you think the government is involved in, you haven't been paying attention. And that's not fair to say simply the "government", as big business is equally involved. Big corporations and big government are spying, tracking, surveilling, listening, watching and logging everything everyone does. It's called a surveillance society/police state.

    I mean, yeah, this is clearly a violation of privacy and human rights, but come on, if you think the government or corporations give a shit about your so-called rights and freedoms, then you're an idiot. But then, what the hell do you think OnStar is but a system of voluntary tracking?

    Oh but don't worry, it's for your "safety" to fight mythical "terrorists," which is why, I'm sure, most of the police state is geared against dissenters.

    You think this is 1984 now? Wait a couple years, democracy will only be a cruel joke by then (as if it isn't already).
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    Oct 17, 2010 7:40 PM GMT
    MeOhMy saidIf this is the worst police state tactics you think the government is involved in, you haven't been paying attention. And that's not fair to say simply the "government", as big business is equally involved. Big corporations and big government are spying, tracking, surveilling, listening, watching and logging everything everyone does. It's called a surveillance society/police state.

    I mean, yeah, this is clearly a violation of privacy and human rights, but come on, if you think the government or corporations give a shit about your so-called rights and freedoms, then you're an idiot. But then, what the hell do you think OnStar is but a system of voluntary tracking?

    Oh but don't worry, it's for your "safety" to fight mythical "terrorists," which is why, I'm sure, most of the police state is geared against dissenters.

    You think this is 1984 now? Wait a couple years, democracy will only be a cruel joke by then (as if it isn't already).



    Who would ever think it's for "our safety"? It's for their safety. "Them" referring to the people in power that make up the system, that like any system merely aims to perpetuate itself.

    On the other hand, I've heard some stories from my friends in Georgia and the Ukraine on what it's like to live in a real police state... and I can truly say don't worry, the modern day US is not even close (yet).
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    Oct 17, 2010 7:54 PM GMT
    Tazo995 said
    MeOhMy saidIf this is the worst police state tactics you think the government is involved in, you haven't been paying attention. And that's not fair to say simply the "government", as big business is equally involved. Big corporations and big government are spying, tracking, surveilling, listening, watching and logging everything everyone does. It's called a surveillance society/police state.

    I mean, yeah, this is clearly a violation of privacy and human rights, but come on, if you think the government or corporations give a shit about your so-called rights and freedoms, then you're an idiot. But then, what the hell do you think OnStar is but a system of voluntary tracking?

    Oh but don't worry, it's for your "safety" to fight mythical "terrorists," which is why, I'm sure, most of the police state is geared against dissenters.

    You think this is 1984 now? Wait a couple years, democracy will only be a cruel joke by then (as if it isn't already).



    Who would ever think it's for "our safety"? It's for their safety. "Them" referring to the people in power that make up the system, that like any system merely aims to perpetuate itself.

    On the other hand, I've heard some stories from my friends in Georgia and the Ukraine on what it's like to live in a real police state... and I can truly say don't worry, the modern day US is not even close (yet).


    I have to agree with you Tazo, MoM don’t go off in the deep end Amerika is not even close to what one would call a “police state” we cant even arrest mobsters to drug dealers without the proper warrants and evidence.

    I agree with Tazo because yes in Ukraine, Georgia and mother Russia a police state exist. I can say I have no friends from Ukraine and Georgia and only know about the government from what mine has told me, yet have some friends from Russia and they tell me the KGB keep a very close eye on everybody...

    But lets not forget the two countries with the best understanding on civil rights and public surveillance like say Chian and North Korea. icon_wink.gif
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    Oct 17, 2010 8:04 PM GMT
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    MeOhMy said


    I have to agree with you Tazo, MoM don’t go off in the deep end Amerika is not even close to what one would call a “police state” we cant even arrest mobsters to drug dealers without the proper warrants and evidence.

    I agree with Tazo because yes in Ukraine, Georgia and mother Russia a police state exist. I can say I have no friends from Ukraine and Georgia and only know about the government from what mine has told me, yet have some friends from Russia and they tell me the KGB keep a very close eye on everybody...

    But lets not forget the two countries with the best understanding on civil rights and public surveillance like say Chian and North Korea. icon_wink.gif


    Yea, Ukraine and Georgia are at least ex-police states, Russia just changed the name and flag, and changed KGB into FSB but it's still pretty much the same.

    And of course they changed the name of their official ideology from "Marxism-Leninism" to "Gazprom-Rosneft".

    North Korea is da bomb.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 17, 2010 8:06 PM GMT
    Tazo995 said
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    MeOhMy said


    I have to agree with you Tazo, MoM don’t go off in the deep end Amerika is not even close to what one would call a “police state” we cant even arrest mobsters to drug dealers without the proper warrants and evidence.

    I agree with Tazo because yes in Ukraine, Georgia and mother Russia a police state exist. I can say I have no friends from Ukraine and Georgia and only know about the government from what mine has told me, yet have some friends from Russia and they tell me the KGB keep a very close eye on everybody...

    But lets not forget the two countries with the best understanding on civil rights and public surveillance like say Chian and North Korea. icon_wink.gif


    Yea, Ukraine and Georgia are at least ex-police states, Russia just changed the name and flag, and changed KGB into FSB but it's still pretty much the same.

    And of course they changed the name of their official ideology from "Marxism-Leninism" to "Gazprom-Rosneft".

    North Korea is da bomb.


    I think you mean the place to bombicon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 17, 2010 8:07 PM GMT
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    MeOhMy said


    I have to agree with you Tazo, MoM don’t go off in the deep end Amerika is not even close to what one would call a “police state” we cant even arrest mobsters to drug dealers without the proper warrants and evidence.

    I agree with Tazo because yes in Ukraine, Georgia and mother Russia a police state exist. I can say I have no friends from Ukraine and Georgia and only know about the government from what mine has told me, yet have some friends from Russia and they tell me the KGB keep a very close eye on everybody...

    But lets not forget the two countries with the best understanding on civil rights and public surveillance like say Chian and North Korea. icon_wink.gif


    Yea, Ukraine and Georgia are at least ex-police states, Russia just changed the name and flag, and changed KGB into FSB but it's still pretty much the same.

    And of course they changed the name of their official ideology from "Marxism-Leninism" to "Gazprom-Rosneft".

    North Korea is da bomb.


    I think you mean the place to bombicon_wink.gif



    No way! Hands off of NK until I have had a chance to take a trip over there, I always wanted to see it.

    Iran is the place we should bomb. And Russia, oh Russia, I will rejoice the day of your demise icon_twisted.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 17, 2010 8:11 PM GMT
    Tazo995 said
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    MeOhMy said


    I have to agree with you Tazo, MoM don’t go off in the deep end Amerika is not even close to what one would call a “police state” we cant even arrest mobsters to drug dealers without the proper warrants and evidence.

    I agree with Tazo because yes in Ukraine, Georgia and mother Russia a police state exist. I can say I have no friends from Ukraine and Georgia and only know about the government from what mine has told me, yet have some friends from Russia and they tell me the KGB keep a very close eye on everybody...

    But lets not forget the two countries with the best understanding on civil rights and public surveillance like say Chian and North Korea. icon_wink.gif


    Yea, Ukraine and Georgia are at least ex-police states, Russia just changed the name and flag, and changed KGB into FSB but it's still pretty much the same.

    And of course they changed the name of their official ideology from "Marxism-Leninism" to "Gazprom-Rosneft".

    North Korea is da bomb.


    I think you mean the place to bombicon_wink.gif



    No way! Hands off of NK until I have had a chance to take a trip over there, I always wanted to see it.

    Iran is the place we should bomb. And Russia, oh Russia, I will rejoice the day of your demise icon_twisted.gif


    Pleas don’t visit NK if you are an american we don’t need to spend months negotiating with those people with an insane cult obsession with their schizo ”leader”. Just wait for the Olympics to arrive there... in 3030icon_smile.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 17, 2010 8:16 PM GMT
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    MeOhMy said


    No way! Hands off of NK until I have had a chance to take a trip over there, I always wanted to see it.

    Iran is the place we should bomb. And Russia, oh Russia, I will rejoice the day of your demise icon_twisted.gif


    Pleas don’t visit NK if you are an american we don’t need to spend months negotiating with those people with an insane cult obsession with their schizo ”leader”. Just wait for the Olympics to arrive there... in 3030icon_smile.gif



    I'm not American. And why can't I visit NK? It's an absolutely fascinating place, the last of its kind on earth, I wanna see it.

    Also, there is no negotiation. You can visit NK, if you play by their rules. I for one would be willing to do that for the unique experience.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 17, 2010 9:54 PM GMT
    Tazo and getfitrick - you guys have good perspective based on your knowledge what a police state really is. Your contributions are good. I have had friends who grew up in East Germany (DDR) and the US is nothing like that. Today I get satellite TV Первый канал (Channel 1 from Moscow) and can tell you the outside political parties get no coverage. In fact, any meetings outside need government approval, usually denied. Then if they meet anyway, the police beat and arrest them.

    When people here refer to the US as a police state, not just in this thread, they really show how little they understand the world.
  • vintovka

    Posts: 588

    Oct 17, 2010 10:12 PM GMT
    Tazo995 saidI'm sure Afifi has been posting on some jihadi forums or so, or stood out purchasing questionable literature.

    In a country with almost 250 million people, I'm sure they only track whoever is worth tracking.


    Actually, I think the fundamental problem is that our intelligence services seem to suck. We not only missed the proper processing of the 9/11 intelligence, we missed lots of other things, like the collapse of the Soviet Union. These are not small errors, they are major failures.

    As to them getting the right people, the warrantless wiretaps that have occurred since 9/11 have produced hundreds of hours of useless data, because they got the wrong people. I'm all for a good intelligence service, which means you don't tap/trail people without good reason. If you don't have enough evidence to get a warrant, then you probably don't really have enough information to justify the surveillance from a security standpoint either. So we end up gathering lots of information on the wrong people, which then chokes the intelligence services with useless information. This becomes dangerous because it buries the useful information. It's like the 911 emergency line being jammed constantly with people complaining about parking tickets.

    We should be much more selective in who we watch and put the extra resources into hiring and training more analysts so that we can process this crap properly. (Oh I forgot to mention the hundreds of hours of tapes that we can't even analyze because we don't have enough linguists.)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 17, 2010 10:22 PM GMT
    Tazo995 said
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    GetFitRick said
    Tazo995 said
    MeOhMy said


    I have to agree with you Tazo, MoM don’t go off in the deep end Amerika is not even close to what one would call a “police state” we cant even arrest mobsters to drug dealers without the proper warrants and evidence.

    I agree with Tazo because yes in Ukraine, Georgia and mother Russia a police state exist. I can say I have no friends from Ukraine and Georgia and only know about the government from what mine has told me, yet have some friends from Russia and they tell me the KGB keep a very close eye on everybody...

    But lets not forget the two countries with the best understanding on civil rights and public surveillance like say Chian and North Korea. icon_wink.gif


    Yea, Ukraine and Georgia are at least ex-police states, Russia just changed the name and flag, and changed KGB into FSB but it's still pretty much the same.

    And of course they changed the name of their official ideology from "Marxism-Leninism" to "Gazprom-Rosneft".

    North Korea is da bomb.


    I think you mean the place to bombicon_wink.gif



    No way! Hands off of NK until I have had a chance to take a trip over there, I always wanted to see it.

    Iran is the place we should bomb. And Russia, oh Russia, I will rejoice the day of your demise icon_twisted.gif


    Leave Iran alone, I wil go in and bomb its religious leaders myself on a suicide mission... the people need to be free of that religious hegemony.... religious policing is just as bad as a police state
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 17, 2010 10:53 PM GMT
    We need CCTV everywhere like in London. Spooks (the TV series) is my favorite. You can solve every crime in every episode partly due to CCTV.
    icon_razz.gif
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    Oct 17, 2010 11:09 PM GMT
    Police states don't appear overnight. What is Homeland Security? It's an evolution in the process. The problem with the other examples you have highlighted is that they do not have the technological capabilities that the United States has.

    The United States IS a surveillance state, and is increasingly becoming a police state. If you don't know what Fusion Centers are, this is evidence of how you are unaware that America is already a police state in development. The process is by no means finished, but it has been slow and incremental, and when it is done, people will say, "how did we get here?" and the answer is... by not being aware of the process... which is rapidly underway.

    Look up Total Information Awareness, Fusion Centers, NSA internet surveillance, the "Patriot" Acts, etc... Yes, East Germany had an advanced system, as did many of the Communist nations. Who do you think America is modeling this on? And for the record, Britain is the most surveilled society on earth, far outweighing the number of security cameras that are in China.

    And what the hell is this bullshit about bombing Iran? Do the world a favour and before you mention the "need" to bomb another country, kill yourself instead. Rick, I love you, but you're an idiot if you think that is at all even a possibility of being a good idea.

    That's right, Iran (as abhorrent as its government is) does not bow down to the United States, therefore, we must nuke them (which are in operational plans and military documents, this is not a secret, it's just not really publicly discussed), and kill presumably millions of innocent people in order to control the region (which in strategic terms is known as the "Arc of Crisis" - from the Horn of Africa to South Asia, of which Iran is the centerpiece).

    Think of this arc like a Roman archway... the most pivotal point is the center, the one block that holds it al together: that's Iran. This is why for the British to control their strategic routes to their Jewel in India, they needed to control this entire region. This is why America seeks hegemony across this entire region, to control the strategic routes for oil and natural gas reserves as well as transport routes.

    If you think the media and government propaganda campaign against Iran has anything to do with human or civil rights, or a fear campaign that they are building nuclear weapons, which is absurd and for which there is absolutely NO evidence, then you, again, are misinformed. If it's about civil rights and political freedoms, well America's client regimes in the region (Egypt and Saudi Arabia in particular) make Iran look like the Garden of Eden of Freedom. If it's about nuclear weapons, then why is there no outcry against Israel having 2-300 nuclear weapons, making it the regional superpower, and one nation that has openly declared its willingness to USE them (against Iran).

    Yeah, and Saddam had WMDs and was making a nuke and was responsible for 9/11. Grow up.
  • SkyMiles

    Posts: 963

    Oct 17, 2010 11:23 PM GMT
    Ya gotta love the FBI. When it comes to wiretapping domestic telecommunications, intercepting emails, infiltrating anti-war groups, survielling librarys and bookstores to find out what books everyone's reading they're right on it. But when it comes to stopping terrorists from blowing up sh*t or wall street kleptocrats from destroying our economy they just can't seem to find the time :/
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    Oct 17, 2010 11:43 PM GMT
    Governmental surveillance will only increase as technology gets better and better. In 10 years tracking and monitoring people will be even easier than it is today.

    Its only an issue when the public finds out about it.
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    Oct 18, 2010 2:30 AM GMT
    In response to an above post:

    Following sources indicate Iran's involvement with nuclear weapons. But in the spirit of full disclosure, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says they are not doing this. So don't worry, everyone, everything is fine. US is the bad guy again for spreading such bad rumors.

    Inspectors Say Iran Worked on Warhead

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/world/middleeast/19iran.html

    By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD
    Published: February 18, 2010

    WASHINGTON — The United Nations’ nuclear inspectors declared for the first time on Thursday that they had extensive evidence of “past or current undisclosed activities” by Iran’s military to develop a nuclear warhead, an unusually strongly worded conclusion that seems certain to accelerate Iran’s confrontation with the United States and other Western countries.

    .......

    In its report, the institute also questioned Iran’s moving most of its stocks of low-enriched uranium into the plant at Natanz, which is doing the high enrichment. The transfer, it said, implied that Iran planned to enrich it all to higher levels and produce “far in excess” of any fuel needed for its stated purpose of fueling a medical reactor in Tehran.

    --------------------

    http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/iran-nuclear-weapons-israel/2010/10/05/id/372644

    Iran Admits It Could Pull Nuke Trigger on US, Israel
    Tuesday, 05 Oct 2010 12:11 PM

    By: Ken Timmerman

    For the first time since the expansion of Iran’s nuclear program was exposed in 2002, the Iranian government is dropping the pretense that it is developing nuclear technology purely for peaceful purposes. Iran has developed nuclear war plans to deter U.S. and Israeli aggression and retaliate against it, a top adviser to Defense Minister Ahmad Vahidi announced in a strategic analysis. ....


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    Oct 18, 2010 2:34 AM GMT
    Yea, let's take Lavrov's word for it icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Oct 18, 2010 2:58 AM GMT
    Tazo995 saidYea, let's take Lavrov's word for it icon_rolleyes.gif

    Yup. LOL. If old Sergei says it, it must be true. Case closed. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Oct 18, 2010 3:09 AM GMT
    If we keep electing leaders and representatives in favor of big government (GWB, BHO, etc.), this will only get worse.
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    Oct 18, 2010 3:18 AM GMT
    Fearthefall saidIf we keep electing leaders and representatives in favor of big government (GWB, BHO, etc.), this will only get worse.

    "Big Govvernment" is when the money is going to someone else.

    I remember some years back when the Mississippi flooded enormously. Prior to the flood, the people all along there and in those state were die-hard small government people. But when the flood hit, they were all looking for the government to come rescue them....both phyically and financially. Hello! Small government means nobody comes when disaster strikes. You had to: first, not build on the flood plain, and second, take care of yourselves when the flood did come.
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    Oct 18, 2010 3:23 AM GMT
    Big government is not what we need to worry about.
    Big corporations are the real threat to us.
    At least the government has some interest in helping American citizens.
    Corporate America cares only about profit and the bottom line - even if means screwing the American people raw.