Walking away from church

  • metta

    Posts: 39089

    Oct 20, 2010 4:39 PM GMT
    Walking away from church


    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-1017-putnam-religion-20101017,0,6283320.story
  • metta

    Posts: 39089

    Oct 20, 2010 4:41 PM GMT

    Tony Perkins, President of the Family Research Council

    66626_10150110682884762_634479761_766239
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    Oct 20, 2010 5:29 PM GMT
    I understand your frustration, but, being a spiritual but non religious man, I feel the gay community's attack on Christian and organized religion is no different than those who attack us for being gay. To put a brand of Murderer on someone's picture is just plain wrong in my view. It is extremist and inflammatory and does nothing to advance our issues and everything to hurt them.

    We need intelligent, patient and educated dialogue with these people and about these people. We need to talk with Perkins, and James Dobson and those that feel we are wrong.

    When we name call and scream insults, we are exactly portraying the screaming fag queen (no offense to my flamboyant brothers) that society has envisioned us to be.. And their answer to that is "Just what I would have expected"

    Talk, patience, education, and manners are going to win the day....Keithicon_cool.gif
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    Oct 20, 2010 5:34 PM GMT
    vetteset saidI understand your frustration, but, being a spiritual but non religious man, I feel the gay community's attack on Christian and organized religion is no different than those who attack us for being gay. To put a brand of Murderer on someone's picture is just plain wrong in my view. It is extremist and inflammatory and does nothing to advance our issues and everything to hurt them.

    We need intelligent, patient and educated dialogue with these people and about these people. We need to talk with Perkins, and James Dobson and those that feel we are wrong.

    When we name call and scream insults, we are exactly portraying the screaming fag queen (no offense to my flamboyant brothers) that society has envisioned us to be.. And their answer to that is "Just what I would have expected"

    Talk, patience, education, and manners are going to win the day....Keithicon_cool.gif
    We've tried talking, patience, education, and manners for a long time; and the homophobic religious leaders are just getting louder and louder to prove us wrong. That's what causing these young kids to kill themselves.

    Yes, that man is a murderer, along with all the other homophobic anti-gay hate speakers. Their words are taking people's lives.
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    Oct 20, 2010 5:37 PM GMT
    vetteset saidI understand your frustration, but, being a spiritual but non religious man, I feel the gay community's attack on Christian and organized religion is no different than those who attack us for being gay. To put a brand of Murderer on someone's picture is just plain wrong in my view. It is extremist and inflammatory and does nothing to advance our issues and everything to hurt them.

    We need intelligent, patient and educated dialogue with these people and about these people. We need to talk with Perkins, and James Dobson and those that feel we are wrong.

    When we name call and scream insults, we are exactly portraying the screaming fag queen (no offense to my flamboyant brothers) that society has envisioned us to be.. And their answer to that is "Just what I would have expected"

    Talk, patience, education, and manners are going to win the day....Keithicon_cool.gif


    DITTO.
    (Thanks Keith! -Buddy)
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    Oct 20, 2010 5:39 PM GMT
    The article is great stuff, and, I firmly believe that at some future point in time false belief systems will become less and less significant. Science and education will continue to advance, and it will be increasing irrational to embrace these false belief systems....but...we have a long way to go. Folks are idiots, and often DO NOT think rationally. Those folks will keep false belief systems alive and well for the foreseeable future.
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    Oct 20, 2010 5:42 PM GMT
    paulflexes said
    vetteset saidI understand your frustration, but, being a spiritual but non religious man, I feel the gay community's attack on Christian and organized religion is no different than those who attack us for being gay. To put a brand of Murderer on someone's picture is just plain wrong in my view. It is extremist and inflammatory and does nothing to advance our issues and everything to hurt them.
    We need intelligent, patient and educated dialogue with these people and about these people. We need to talk with Perkins, and James Dobson and those that feel we are wrong.
    When we name call and scream insults, we are exactly portraying the screaming fag queen (no offense to my flamboyant brothers) that society has envisioned us to be.. And their answer to that is "Just what I would have expected"
    Talk, patience, education, and manners are going to win the day....Keithicon_cool.gif

    We've tried talking, patience, education, and manners for a long time; and the homophobic religious leaders are just getting louder and louder to prove us wrong. That's what causing these young kids to kill themselves.

    Yes, that man is a murderer, along with all the other homophobic anti-gay hate speakers. Their words are taking people's lives.


    What's really killing those kids is that they don't have whom to turn to and talk. Kids and other people who have trusting loyal people (confidants) to speak with will learn to ignore and deal with scum when necessary, and know when to defend themselves (physical self defense etc.) when needed.
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    Oct 20, 2010 5:51 PM GMT
    paulflexes said>We've tried talking, patience, education, and manners for a long time; and the homophobic religious leaders are just getting louder and louder to prove us wrong. That's what causing these young kids to kill themselves.

    Yes, that man is a murderer, along with all the other homophobic anti-gay hate speakers. Their words are taking people's lives.


    Edit note: I was typing this at the same time Buddy was posting the above..

    Respectfully Paul, that man is not killing the youth, they are killing themselves because they have not found someone to turn to and to counsel and console.

    I was raised in the church, as an adult I was in the evangelical church, I taught both Adult and High School Sunday school, as a closeted gay man. My faith was in Christ, not the church. I have listened to Perkins, Dobson, Falwell, Graham, Robertson and the rest of the old boys club.

    They do not spew hatred, they disagree with our lifestyle and they say we are going against God's laws. I have never heard any of them say that we are children of Satan, or demonic. They state their religious beliefs.

    I lived knowing those attitudes from the time I was a small child. It was never religion or any of these men that brought me to the brink of suicide....it was the acceptance factor by my peers, many of whom were not religious. Society's attitudes, not fuelled by the church, are homophoebic; and to blame all our woes on the church is just too simplistic. To further brand someone with a horrendous tag of Murderer is no different than someone calling me a fucking cocksucking faggot.....

    Keithicon_cool.gif
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    Oct 20, 2010 5:58 PM GMT
    BuddyinNYC saidWhat's really killing those kids is that they don't have whom to turn to and talk. Kids and other people who have trusting loyal people (confidants) to speak with will learn to ignore and deal with scum when necessary, and know when to defend themselves (physical self defense etc.) when needed.
    That is true. If I didn't have an equally closeted jack-off buddy in high school to talk to, it's a very high probability that I would have also been a suicide statistic. My problem was just like most others: It wasn't so much the religious leaders making me hate myself - it was my parents' belief of what the religious leaders were saying.

    The bullying at school was no problem because I took Taekwondo in 9th and 10th grades to defend myself. It only took one bully attacking me physically, then the others saw what I did to him...no more problems after that. But the verbal abuse had me running circles in my head, wishing I could die every single day.

    PS. The 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph is why I heavily promote violence to counter the anti-gay shit. It's all they will listen to.
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    Oct 20, 2010 6:17 PM GMT
    False belief systems START the problem by putting forth the notion that gay / bi is bad, and then saying it's o.k. to ostracize those folks and that they'll be burned in Hell, and so on. The very first step needs to be to put that false belief system in its place: it's false, period.

    You FIRST have to get rid of the false belief systems. Once that false belief is gone, you can make an open discussion based upon truth, rather than a discussion based upon garbage.
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    Oct 20, 2010 6:25 PM GMT
    paulflexes said
    BuddyinNYC saidWhat's really killing those kids is that they don't have whom to turn to and talk. Kids and other people who have trusting loyal people (confidants) to speak with will learn to ignore and deal with scum when necessary, and know when to defend themselves (physical self defense etc.) when needed.

    That is true. If I didn't have an equally closeted jack-off buddy in high school to talk to, it's a very high probability that I would have also been a suicide statistic. My problem was just like most others: It wasn't so much the religious leaders making me hate myself - it was my parents' belief of what the religious leaders were saying.

    The bullying at school was no problem because I took Taekwondo in 9th and 10th grades to defend myself. It only took one bully attacking me physically, then the others saw what I did to him...no more problems after that. But the verbal abuse had me running circles in my head, wishing I could die every single day.

    PS. The 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph is why I heavily promote violence to counter the anti-gay shit. It's all they will listen to.


    That is legitimate self-defense, not violence.

    Their verbal abuse succeeded (according to your description.) Such kids now-a-days need an accessible support group to feel secure and strong. Manipulating bullies see that they succeed in antagonizing and feel even more empowered to continue and expand their despicable reign of terror. They will weaken when they see that the are not effective.

    Parents too need to be recipients of the support group. They need to understand what their child is going through and to learn how to give support.
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    Oct 20, 2010 6:37 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidFalse belief systems START the problem by putting forth the notion that gay / bi is bad, and then saying it's o.k. to ostracize those folks and that they'll be burned in Hell, and so on. The very first step needs to be to put that false belief system in its place: it's false, period.
    You FIRST have to get rid of the false belief systems. Once that false belief is gone, you can make an open discussion based upon truth, rather than a discussion based upon garbage.


    "False belief Systems" and their followers aren't all necessarily hateful and anti-gay. Some very pious people are very loving, having been raised knowing that the highest command is "And you SHALL love." Interpretation is everything, and legitimate.

    In reality, it would be so much easier to teach hatemongers to love and respect (based on their own scriptures) than it would be to get rid of "False belief systems." That is truth.
  • metta

    Posts: 39089

    Oct 30, 2010 4:42 AM GMT
    NewAmericanJesus.gif


    The study, called “Americans Describe Christianity’s Contributions to Society,” found that Americans see both good and bad in the faith’s influence in America.
    But perhaps the most striking stat: The most frequent response was from people who could not name a single positive thing the faith has done in recent years. A whopping 25 percent were mum on that.
    “The most frequent response, however, was the inability to think of a single positive contribution made by Christians in recent years,” the study says.


    http://thepulpit.freedomblogging.com/2010/10/29/christianity-positives-25-percent-couldnt-answer-study-finds/7738/
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Oct 31, 2010 2:12 PM GMT
    So, why this sudden jump in youthful disaffection from organized religion? The surprising answer, according to a mounting body of evidence, is politics. Very few of these new "nones" actually call themselves atheists, and many have rather conventional beliefs about God and theology. But they have been alienated from organized religion by its increasingly conservative politics.

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