Gay Martyrs

  • stevarino7

    Posts: 149

    Oct 20, 2010 9:57 PM GMT
    After hearing about all the tragic suicides based off of bullying, I understand that most become a victim of suicide based off of others bigotry, discrimination and often down right hatred/misunderstandings of others.

    I was listening to the Norman City Council http://normanok.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=163 which was shared on one of the other forums surrounding the issue of teen suicide due to being bullied or put down based on many different things, most importantly here because the child is perceived to be gay. So a lady brought up the suicide of Asher Brown, in Texas, because he was considered to be gay. It made me think, we had a day of remembrance where we wore purple today to bring up awareness of these suicides. I think this is an important thing to do. However, I wondered if doing something like this, included with all of the media and coverage on the subject, such as the "It gets better" campaign (which i fully support as a foundation of steps to get children to stop killing themselves based off sexual orientation, though I do think there needs to be a more progressive campaign that helps the child now, rather than saying "someday") made these teens martyrs.

    I posed the question to some of my friends, who mostly responded with no, because they were so hurt and discouraged and saw no other way out, rather than did it in attempt to get media attention to spotlight a very serious subject that needs to be talked about. My belief is that though they may not of known it, they became nationally familiar and the debate has become more heated and important because of them. So though not intentional, they could be considered gay martyrs.

    I suppose if you don't see them as martyrs, would you consider others to be, such as Matthew Shepard or Harvey Milk?

    I apologize if this comes off as insensitive, but my point is not to say these teens did something for national attention. Clearly we all know they probably wanted anything but attention, because they were most likely trying to not be noticed in attempt to stop the teasing and bullying. My intention is to answer or explore the question, that if even though they didn't mean to become so well known through the media, are they considered martyrs to some?
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    Oct 21, 2010 3:29 AM GMT
    A martyr is someone who is killed for religious or other beliefs.
    Feeling so alienated and down because of who you ARE isn't comparable to beliefs or religion.
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    Oct 21, 2010 3:42 AM GMT
    It's noble that you would want to give them that honor, but no, they're not martyrs.
    Aside from religion, in order to become martyrs, they would have to carry out their actions for the purpose of promoting a purpose...in this case, equal rights for gays. But instead, their actions were due to depression and feelings of worthlessness.
  • stevarino7

    Posts: 149

    Oct 21, 2010 3:51 AM GMT
    I do know what it means to be a martyr. I didn't ask the question without knowing the meaning behind it, however, what I was unsure of was if there was a possibility of some one being one without intentionally trying to be one. I know suicide in these cases, unlike suicide bombers, are done due to feelings of depression, rather than feelings of strong and extreme religious beliefs. I am not trying to glorify suicide, I do not believe it is an action that should be taken by any one and I am relieved at the attention and support to stop things like this from happening. But my real question was, can some one unintentionally be a martyr to others, even if they weren't trying to be one.

    So yes, I understand Paulflex, that through your explanation you do not believe they can be.
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    Oct 21, 2010 4:01 AM GMT
    stevarino7 saidBut my real question was, can some one unintentionally be a martyr to others, even if they weren't trying to be one.
    Well, language is fluid. If enough people agree to accept that as an extension of the definition of martyr, then the common usage thing would go into effect and it would eventually be generally accepted.
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    Oct 21, 2010 4:04 AM GMT
    They might be considered martyrs in a liberal interpretation of the idea.

    What I think that we really need are some hardcore gay martyrs putting a hardcore end to the hate groups. Saving the innocent at the expense of the guilty is something that's mighty fine with me.
  • etacass

    Posts: 6

    Nov 12, 2010 9:28 AM GMT
    You can't get legalistic about something so inherently passionate. If you want to insist that these kids had to be sticking up for a choice, or had to act out of stubborn adherence to belief rather than despair, or whatever... you're just splitting hairs. They die because they're gay, so yeah, they can be gay martyrs. If anyone who loved them can draw a measure of comfort from thinking that, I for one am not going to say otherwise.

    A mote of caution should be exercised, however. Stevarino, you already noted that you don't want to glorify suicide, and that's a point worth repeating. We'd rather have living breathing gay men to support our side than these tragic young corpses.
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    Nov 12, 2010 9:32 AM GMT
    so mnboy, you would like to go on the record as saying that there are not and can not be any gay martyrs?
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    Nov 12, 2010 9:32 AM GMT
    just a hint (because you are illiterate) . . martyr means Witness . . .
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    Nov 12, 2010 9:34 AM GMT
    noren saidjust a hint (because you are illiterate) . . martyr means Witness . . .


    martyr |ˈmärtər|
    noun
    a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs : the first Christian martyr.
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    Nov 12, 2010 9:38 AM GMT
    it means witness in Greek . . . and if you weren't so ignorant of your conservative and western heritage you would know that Whittaker Chambers' autobiography is entitled Witness for precisely that reason . . your poor education is revealing itself yet again . .

    . . . but you are ignorant and happy, clearly . . .
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    Nov 12, 2010 9:40 AM GMT
    noren saidit means witness in Greek . . . and if you weren't so ignorant of your conservative and western heritage you would know that Whittaker Chambers' autobiography is entitled Witness for precisely that reason . . your poor education is revealing itself yet again . .

    . . . but you are ignorant and happy, clearly . . .


    In English which is the context in which the word was used it means as I stated above. Try to not take things out of context because of your inability to understand things... Also, a martur is a witness is greek.. Should get your languages checked.
    You aren't more intelligent than me and that is pretty sad.
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    Nov 12, 2010 9:45 AM GMT
    no, the whole point is that you are ignorant of the context . . . one really does need to know the provenance of a word . . .it does matter to the meaning and the current context . . .
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    Nov 12, 2010 9:49 AM GMT
    noren saidno, the whole point is that you are ignorant of the context . . . one really does need to know the provenance of a word . . .it does matter to the meaning and the current context . . .

    I obviously know more than you since I corrected you. Martur is greek for witness..
    Martyr is an english derivative that has a completely different meaning than its root.
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    Nov 12, 2010 9:56 AM GMT
    again, you miss the point and the context . . . Chambers said that the word witness was a direct replacement or translation for the greek word . . . the exact spelling for him was irrelevant . . . amd by the way, he was quite knowledgable about translations . . after all, he translated Bambi from the German into English . .
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    Nov 12, 2010 9:58 AM GMT
    noren saidagain, you miss the point and the context . . . Chambers said that the word witness was a direct replacement or translation for the greek word . . . the exact spelling for him was irrelevant . . . amd by the way, he was quite knowledgable about translations . . after all, he translated Bambi from the German into English . .


    That has no correlation here.
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    Nov 12, 2010 10:02 AM GMT
    your statement is a non sequitur . . . have another drink!