Albert Einstein on Zionism (Einstein was a Zionist.)

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    Nov 16, 2010 12:36 AM GMT
    In another topic, the "anti-ZIonists" have attempted to co-opt Albert Einstein to their unholy cause:

    sxydrkhair (21 Jan 2009)> Albert Einstein was anti-Zionist.

    sxydrkhair (10 Nov 2010)> Even Albert Einstein knew of the danger of Zionism...

    Caesarea4> Einstein was himself a Zionist.

    pouncer> Oh they just keep on coming don't they?

    Yes, the truth will keep on coming to combat your lies-for-the-cause.


    From Facts on File:
    The fact that he was Jewish and supported Zionism occasioned further conflict with political conservatives in Germany.
    [Barber, Nigel, Ph. D. "Einstein, Albert." Encyclopedia of Ethics in Science and Technology. Facts On File, Inc., 2002.]

    http://library.thinkquest.org/29033/history/einstein.htm
    He supported Zionism, the movement concerned with the development of Israel, and was offered the Presidency of Israel


    http://press.princeton.edu/titles/562.html
    his devotion to Zionism


    http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/optics/timeline/people/einstein.html
    Einstein began to publicly voice his opinions about world affairs, avidly supporting pacifism and Zionism.


    https://www.msu.edu/~mccaske1/writing/einstein.htm
    Einstein continued to speak politically. He made several public gestures supporting Zionism and pacifism, and he was even offered the presidency of Israel in 1952. He declined, citing inexperience in politics. Possessing a stronger duty to science, he stated that "Equations are more important to me, because politics is for the present, but an equation is something for eternity" (Hawking 178 ).


    http://www.lcsd.gov.hk/CE/Museum/Science/temp-exh/einstein/ejew.htm
    he believed in the basic principles of Zionism and supported the State of Israel until the end of his life.


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    Nov 16, 2010 12:37 AM GMT
    Let's further review Einstein's own writings, from the book "About Zionism; Speeches and Letters" (Macmillan, 1931; LC# 31004292):

    In 1919:
    I am against nationalism but in favor of Zionism. The reason has become clear to me today. When a man has both arms and he is always saying I have a right arm, then he is a chauvinist. However, when the right arm is missing, then he must do something to make up for the missing limb. Therefore, I am, as a human being, an opponent of nationalism. But as a Jew I am from today a supporter of the Jewish Zionist efforts.

    1921:
    Through the establishment of a Jewish Commonwealth in Palestine, the Jewish people will again be in a position to bring its creative abilities into full play without hindrance. Through the Jewish University and similar institutions the Jewish people will not only help forward its own national renaissance, but will enrich its moral culture and knowledge, and will once again, as it was centuries ago, be guided into better ways of life than those which are inevitably imposed on it in present conditions.

    Nationalities do not want to be fused: they want to go each its own way. A state of peace can be brought about only if they mutually tolerate and respect one another.

    It is from this point of view that I look upon the Zionist movement. History has to-day allotted us the task of contributing actively to the economic and cultural re-construction of Palestine. Inspired men of genius and vision have laid the foundations of our work, to which many of the best among us are prepared to devote their whole lives. It were well if all of us felt the full significance of the work and contributed each his utmost to its success.

    1925:
    Jewish nationalism is a necessity today, because only through a consolidation of our national life can we eliminate those conflicts from which the Jews suffer at the present time. Let us hope that the time will soon come when this nationalism will have become so thoroughly a matter of course that it will no longer be necessary for us to give it special emphasis. Our affiliation with our past and with the present day achievements of our people inspires us with assurance and pride in the face of the whole world. But our educational institutions in particular must regard it as one of their noblest tasks to keep our people free from nationalistic obscurantism and aggressive intolerance.

    After the 1929 Arab massacres of Jews in Mandate Palestine Einstein wrote:
    Shaken to its depths by the tragic catastrophe in Palestine, Jewry must now show that it is truly equal to the great task it has undertaken. It goes without saying that our devotion to the cause and our determination to continue the work of peaceful construction will not be weakened in the slightest by any such setback

    In an article 2 months later:
    It was with a wonderful enthusiasm and a deep sense of gratitude that the Jews, afflicted more than any other people by the chaos and horror of the war, obtained from Great Britain a pledge to support the re-etablishment of the Jewish national home in Palestine. ... to redeem by their physical labour the almost derelict land. Deserts were irrigated, forests planted, swamps drained, and their crippling diseases subdued. A work of peace was created which, although still perhaps small in size, compelled the admiration of every observer.

    Arab mobs, organised and fanaticised by political intriguers working on the religious fury of the ignorant, attacked scattered Jewish settlements and murdered and plundered wherever no resistance was offered. In Hebron, the inmates of a rabbinical college, innocent youths who had never handled weapons in their lives, were butchered in cold blood; in Safed the same fate befell aged rabbis and their wives and children. ...Is it not then amazing that an orgy of such primitive brutality upon a peaceful population has been utilised by a certain scion of the British press for a campaign of propaganda directed, not against the authors and instigators of these brutalities, but against their victims?

    ...not a single Arab has been dispossessed; every acre of land acquired by the Jews has been bought at a price fixed by buyer and seller. Indeed, every visitor has testified to the enormous improvement in the economic and sanitary standard of the Arab population. ...Jewish and Arab workers have associated in the trade unions of the Palestine railways, and the standard of living of the Arabs has been raised. Arab scholars can be found working in the great library of the Hebrew University, while the study of the Arabic language and civilisation forms one of the chief subjects of study at this University. Arab workmen have participated in the evening courses conducted at the Jewish Technical Institute at Haifa....

    The Zionist movement is entitled, in the name of its higher objectives and on the strength of the support which has been promised to it most solemnly by the civilised world, to demand that its unprecedented reconstructive effort - carried out in a country which still largely lies fallow, and in which, by methods of intensive cultivation such as the Jews have applied, room can be found for hundreds of thousands of new settlers without detriment to the native population - shall not be defeated by a small clique of agitators, even if they wear the garb of ministers of the Islamic religion. Does public opinion in Great Britain realise that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who is the centre of an the trouble, and speaks so loudly in the name of all the Moslems, is a young political adventurer of not much more, I understand, than thirty years of age, who in 1920 was sentenced to several years' imprisonment for his complicity in the riots of that year, but was pardoned under the terms of an amnesty? The mentality of this man may be gauged from a recent statement he gave to an interviewer accusing me, of all men, of having demanded the rebuilding of the Temple on the site of the Mosque of Omar. Is it tolerable that, in a country where ignorant fanaticism can so easily be incited to rapine and murder by interested agitators, so utterly irresponsible and unscrupulous a politician should be enabled to continue to exercise his evil influence, garbed in an the spiritual sanity of religion, and invested with all the temporal powers that this involves in an Eastern country?


    Scary, isn't it, how little has changed in some corners in nearly 100 years since, and we still have petty religionists running amuck in Gaza, Lebanon and Iran?
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    Nov 16, 2010 12:38 AM GMT
    In conclusion, while it is true that Einstein opposed right-wing Zionism, he was himself a Zionist and a supporter of Israel. Two weeks after Israel declared independence, Einstein wrote a "Tribute to Israel". At the time of his death in 1955, Einstein was composing a telecast to broadcast in Israel during its 7th Independence day celebration.
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    Nov 16, 2010 4:10 AM GMT
    One of the traits of Jews and Israelis is to be self critical. When a people know that they are far from perfect and criticize their own, it is a constructive way of improving and strengthening itself. That trait would be well adopted by other people too. (cough.)
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    Nov 16, 2010 4:23 AM GMT
    That he was a strong supporter of the founding of the State of Israel, and in particular a very important fundraiser for the Hebrew University of Jerusalem is beyond question.

    But his views on physics are so revolutionary that it is highly doubtful his thinking on other matters can be put into neat boxes such as "Zionism", even though as I say above he supported the Zionists.

    But I am deeply mindful of this quote:
    The first and most important necessity is the creation of a modus vivendi with the Arab people. Friction is perhaps inevitable, but its evil consequences must be overcome by organised co-operation, so that the inflammable material may not be piled up to the point of danger. The absence of normal contact in every-day life is bound to produce an atmosphere of mutual fear and distrust, which is favourable to such lamentable outbursts of passion as we have witnessed. We Jews must show above all that our own history of suffering has given us sufficient understanding and psychological insight to know how to cope with this problem of psychology and organisation: (Albert Einstein, About Zionism , Macmillan, 1931 pp 60-61 [Letter to Manchester Guardian, Oct. 12, 1929])

    and I remind you that Einstein, as great a physicist as he was, did not forsee the terrible legacy of the nuclear weapons program he personally urged Roosevelt to pursue.

    Even as a pacifist his views were complicated-- in his words:
    I didn't write that I was an absolute pacifist but that I have always been a convinced pacifist. That means there are circumstances in which in my opinion it is necessary to use force...Such a case would be when I face an opponent whose unconditional aim is to destroy me and my people.

    I think we claim too much if we stretch any of the above to divine his opinion about the state of affairs today.
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    Nov 16, 2010 5:05 AM GMT
    It's unfortunate that sxydrkhair doesn't have the capacity to analyze and understand that which he spams.

    > The Sixteenth Zionist Congress (1929)... the 112 "non-Zionist" members included Louis Marshall, Shalom Asch, Albert Einstein, Leon Blum, and members of the Rothschild family.

    How could it be that half of the delegates to the Zionist Congress,including Einstein, weren't Zionists?
    (Note further the difference between "NON-Zionist" and "ANTI-Zionist", sxydrkhair's original false claim last year.)
    I think the more common term for the "non-Zionists" was the "General Zionists", but that's a different lesson.


    > Albert Einstein wrote in a letter to American Friends of the Fighters for the Freedom of Israel shortly after the 1948 Deir Yassin massacre and referred to the Irgun - led by Menachem Begin, later a Prime Minister of Israel, and the Stern Gang, where Yitzhak Shamir, also a future Prime Minister of Israel, was a member - as a terrorist organization, and refused to support these (Zionist terrorists) "misled and criminal people."

    That makes him a much better person than you - who are an apologist for the Arab/Muslim terrorists. But again look at the illogical sleight of hand. Because Einstein clearly condemned Jewish/Zionist extremists doesn't make him an "anti-Zionist".


    > I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state.

    Of course. Just as he wished for pacifism and "reasonable agreement" with nazi Germany.
    It is precisely the Arab violence and rejection of Jews (see, for example, the quote above following the 1929 Arab massacre of Jews) which made Einstein check his utopian idealism in favor of a more pragmatic reality.

    Again, when we look at EInstein's own writings (not twisted snippets as above) and at the descriptions of his own friends and colleagues, there is no escaping that (despite disagreeing with the right wing) Einstein was for decades a Zionist and, from its establishment in 1948 until his death in 1955, a supporter of Israel.
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    Nov 16, 2010 5:59 AM GMT
    There he goes again!

    Unable to defend his prior post or reflect on what I posted, sxydrkhair simply spams more of the same.

    > from the outset he had fully supported the idea of Dr. Judah Magnes, President of Hebrew University, of an Arab-Jewish binational state."

    As noted, that was Einstein's first choice. But it was precisely due to Arab rejectionism and violence (just as nazi blitzkriegs disabused him of pacifism) that he realized the need for a Jewish state (see his own writings at top of page).


    sxydrkhair> your anti-Palestinian propaganda.

    Refuting your lie that Einstein was an "anti-Zionist" is "anti-Palestinian"?!

    It doesn't even appear that the sxydrkhair echo chamber realizes he repeated one of the points (criticism of the far right) already dismissed.
    It's like claiming that someone who criticizes Ronald Reagan is against the existence of the USA.

    Such is life when one is doomed trying to change facts to fit his notions, when the cause is more important than the truth.
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    Nov 16, 2010 6:18 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair now> I never said he was an anti-Zionist.

    sxydrkhair (21 Jan 2009)> Albert Einstein was anti-Zionist.

    The guy even lies about his own lies!


    sxydrkhair's lie> He saw Israel as a Jewish culture rather than a Jewish homeland or a Jewish state.

    Albert Einstein> Through the establishment of a Jewish Commonwealth....

    Do you know what a "commonwealth" is?

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    Nov 16, 2010 6:25 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidI don't remember saying that.

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/393029?forumpage=5
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    Nov 16, 2010 6:30 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair> OMG! lol Don't you see the quote? I got it from that site. "http://www.mepc.org/journal/9012_corrigan.asp"
    I feel sorry for you.

    So you quoted it because you knew it was wrong but wanted to convince others it was right?
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    Nov 16, 2010 7:06 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidThat was last year and I don't remember why I quoted it. Maybe I quoted because I like to hear what others have to say? We were talking about land and East Jerusalem.

    Again you aren't helping yourself any. So you brought it up during a discussion of something else because, "maybe", you "like to hear what others have to say?" Just random snippets? Not what other people on RJ are posting (this is, afterall, a discussion forum), but off-topic cut & paste spam propaganda from another web-site?

    You're not fooling anyone. Everyone reading this - including you - knows that you posted that to mislead others into thinking that "Einstein was anti-ZIonist", as you yourself repeated (without quotes).

    You lied then, for the cause, attempting to mislead RJ readers.
    And you are lying now in an effort to cover up your previous lie.

    Just as you attempted to bait-and-switch "non-Zionist" as "anti-Zionist" above.


    Just as you continue to lie and misrepresent Einsntein's views:

    sxydrkhair> He saw Israel as a Jewish culture rather than a Jewish homeland or a Jewish state.

    Albert Einstein> Through the establishment of a Jewish Commonwealth....

    Do you know what a "commonwealth" is?
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    Nov 16, 2010 2:18 PM GMT
    Look how the same propaganda is regurgitated over and over and as usual we see attempts to divert from the topic:

    pouncer> Caesarea4 has defended and embraced the right of Jewish nationals to kill British civilians in the King David Hotel. He has also glorified these roving goons as giving their enemies "a taste of their own medicine".
    He has also made full use of a cynical quote favoured by terrorists and genocidaires the world over - "ugly things happen in war".

    All of these are gross misrepresenations of my positions and what I said and all of these are extensively discussed elsewhere. This is typical pouncer nonsense.


    pouncer> Einstein>"The State idea is not according to my heart. I cannot understand why it is needed. It is connected with narrow-mindedness and economic obstacles. I believe that it is bad. I have always been against it. He went further to deride the concept of a Jewish commonwealth as an imitation of Europe, the end of which was brought about by nationalism."

    Einstein referred to himself as "he"? This is the usual twisting of taking one sentence and wrapping it in text not written by Einstein.

    The "it" derided by Einstein wasn't Zionism or the concept of a Jewish state per se but the more general case of states and nationalism (in the post WW I era).

    What pouncer improperly quotes isn't new and was already addressed in the OP (in the 2nd post), but look how it gets worse for him:

    p> In saying "commonwealth", Einstein was referring to nationhood (the first two definitions), since there was never any serious (or even proposed) prospect of a "Jewish federation" or a "Jewish group of nations" in the Middle East.

    Except that it's not Einstein saying "commonwealth" in your quote.
    I'm glad you agree that the word means "nationhood" as per the first two definitions.
    Now let's see Einstein's actual use of the word:

    Einstein> Throught the establishment of a Jewish Commonwealth....

    Einstein> Jewish nationalism is a necessity today....

    Einstein> It is from this point of view that I look upon the Zionist movement....

    Note how I'm not limited to quoting a sentence wrapped in commentary but quote paragraphs written by Einstein himself.
    (Full paragraphs already previously provided, at the top of the page.)

    Again, it is true that Einstein's first choice (his heart) was a bi-national state (or no state at all).
    His first choice was also pacifism, but this was superceded by the necessity of fighting the nazi evil.

    It was the Arab attacks on the Jewish community (1921, 1929, 1936-39, 1947-48 ) which led him to move beyond his utopian preference (using his brain rather than his heart).
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    Nov 16, 2010 9:26 PM GMT
    pouncer> If Einstein didn't believe in a Jewish state with borders, an army, or any "temporal powers, in what meaningful way was he a Zionist??

    As we've seen, Einstein was of two minds on the subject: In "theory", in a Utopian world, there would be no need for a Jewish state (or any other). In reality, the world we unfortunately live in, he supported a Jewish "commonwealth". In reality, he supported the establishment and existence of Israel as a state (complete with "borders", an "army" and "temporal powers".

    Spam propaganda liars-for-the-cause such as sxydrkhair and pouncer attempt to twist the former into meaning that he was against the latter. This is why I can quote complete paragraphs (and reference what his friends and colleagues said of him) while the best they can do is quote snippets which they immerse and surround in other text (at times even dishonestly quoting that text as if Einstein had said it). Why is it that the anti-Zionist crusaders have such a difficult time with reality...?
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    Nov 16, 2010 10:52 PM GMT
    pouncer> I could just as easily say that your Zionist quotations of him are tempered by his remarks decrying Israeli nationhood in favour of a non-sovereign Jewish homeland.

    Which would be your usual lack of discernment and nuance. The point is that you had to manufacture "quotes" to do so whereas I can freely quote paragraphs of his own writing.

    Did you forget this botch of yours?

    pouncer> Einstein>"The State idea is not according to my heart. I cannot understand why it is needed. It is connected with narrow-mindedness and economic obstacles. I believe that it is bad. I have always been against it. He went further to deride the concept of a Jewish commonwealth as an imitation of Europe, the end of which was brought about by nationalism."

    He? Einstein said "my" and "I", yet then called himself "he"?

    Again, this is a one sentence quote (about the general/theoretical case) which is dishonestly manipulated to appear to talk about the specific/pragmatic case.

    You then trumpeted how "commonwealth" meant nation state.
    But you, characteristically, missed that Einstein didn't use that word in his sentence.
    You (or your unattributed source) had inserted words into Einstein's mouth.

    Here's how he did use it (complete quotes in OP):

    Einstein> Through the establishment of a Jewish Commonwealth....
    Einstein> Jewish nationalism is a necessity today....
    Einstein> It is from this point of view that I look upon the Zionist movement....


    p> Einstein was neither a Zionist nor an anti-Zionist. He found agreement and disagreement with both sides.

    That would be news to Einstein, who called himself a Zionist even as he opposed the right-wing Zionists.
    The latter does not make him an anti-Zionist.
    The former does make him a Zionist.

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    Nov 17, 2010 2:52 PM GMT
    ROTFL.

    There he goes again. Quoting exactly a mere 10 words from Einstein, not even a complete sentence, and wrapping them in more of his own words (or of others) and thinking that he's managed to grasp a brilliant man's complex view on a complicated matter.
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    Nov 18, 2010 2:45 PM GMT
    pouncer in another topic> Einstein was a Zionist (subsequently changed to "Einstein on Zionism" after C4's points failed)

    This topic was entered under the heading "Albert Einstein on Zionism".

    My points haven't failed.

    You have quoted 10 words and wrapped them in misleading commentary, literally putting words ("commonwealth") in his mouth in a way he didn't say them - while ignoring his actual use of said words.

    I have extensively quoted Einstein speaking his own mind (full quotes in OP):

    Einstein> Through the establishment of a Jewish Commonwealth....
    Einstein> Jewish nationalism is a necessity today....
    Einstein> It is from this point of view that I look upon the Zionist movement....


    One is still left wondering why sxydrkhair would quote someone saying that "Albert Einstein was anti-Zionist" (in a forum topic having nothing to do with Einstein) and repeat it when he claims he knew that wasn't true.

    Was sxydrkhair lying-for-the-cause to mislead RJ readers?!
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    Nov 21, 2010 5:52 PM GMT
    Some propagandists like to obscure Einstein's Zionism as simply supporting Jewish institutions, such as the Hebrew University. What they (intentionally) overlook is why he supported these.

    Albert Einstein:
    If science is pre-eminent through its universal predomination, then one may ask, why do we need a Jewish University? Science is international but its success is based on institutions which are owned by nations. If therefore, we wish to promote culture we have to combine and to organize institutions with our own power and means. We need to do this all the more on account of the present political developments and especially in the view of the fact that a large percentage of our sons are refused admission to the Universities of other nations.

    Recall that upon receiving news of the Balfour Declaration ("His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people...."), Einstein wrote:
    What makes me happiest is the realization of a Jewish state in Palestine.

    Upon the inauguration of the Hebrew University, Einstein wrote:
    I consider this the greatest day of my life. Hitherto I have always found something to regret in the Jewish soul, and that is the forgetfulness of its own people -- forgetfulness of its being, almost. Today I have been made happy by the sight of the Jewish people learning to recognize themselves and to make themselves recognized as a force in the world. This is a great age, the age of liberation of the Jewish soul, and it has been accomplished through the Zionist movement, so that no one in the world will be able to destroy it.

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    Mar 16, 2011 12:24 PM GMT
    Does anyone believe, as the shameless hate-mongers and liars-for-the-cause claim, that Einstein was an "anti-Zionist"?
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    Mar 17, 2011 1:43 AM GMT
    The comedy that is sxydrkhair goes on:

    sxydrkhair (21 Jan 2009)> Albert Einstein was anti-Zionist.

    sxydrkhair (16 Nov 2010)> I never said he was an anti-Zionist.

    sxydrkhair (16 Mar 2011)> Now I realized Albert Einstein was an anti-Zionist.

    ROTFL.


    sxydrkhair> You need to read his book more carefully.

    Does anyone believe that sxydrkhair read any of Einstein's books?
    Can sxydrkhair even name which "his book" he is talking about?

    Once again all sxydrkhair has managed to do is discredit himself.
    The truth value of his "facts" are completely unimportant to him.
    What matters to him is the "context", i.e. how he wants to twist something to mislead others.
    He's only fooling himself (if that).
  • dglater

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    Mar 17, 2011 5:50 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidGo read his biography book and stop whining. I don't believe any words you said. :-)


    flip-flop
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    Mar 17, 2011 1:55 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair (21 Jan 2009)> Albert Einstein was anti-Zionist.
    sxydrkhair (16 Nov 2010)> I never said he was an anti-Zionist.
    sxydrkhair (16 Mar 2011)> Now I realized Albert Einstein was an anti-Zionist.

    dglater> flip-flop

    ROTFLx2.


    Does anyone believe that sxydrkhair read any of Einstein's books?
    Can sxydrkhair even name which "his book" he is talking about?


    sxydrkhair> Go read his biography book

    LOL. How retarded.
    A biography (as opposed to an autobiography) is written by someone else.
    Thus it is not "his book" but a book about him.
    Numerous biographies are quoted in the OP.

    Numerous paragraphs of Einstein's own writings are included in the 2nd post (and later).
    Complete with dates so one can track the evolution of Einstein's thoughts on the matter.

    Unlike pouncer's "quotes", many of them a few words surrounded by lots of foreign text, which lack dates as pouncer attempts to twist that a thought recorded in the 1920s supercedes something written in the 1940s.

    On an on they continue with their idiocy, once again attempting to manipulate the facts and data to conform to their notions masquerading as conclusions.
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    Mar 18, 2011 10:40 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair> Do I need to say more?

    No, you should say less and READ more.
    (It is the empty barrel that makes the most noise.)

    You can start with the OP and subsequent posts, in which your spam propaganda was anticipated and refuted.
    Not by someone else writing about Einstein (as you do) but through comments made by his biographers, colleagues, friends... and by Einstein himself!

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    Mar 19, 2011 4:22 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair> I still don't believe a word you said.

    It has nothing to do with believing me. The OP provides 6 different biographical sources.
    The second post provides paragraphs of Einsteins own writings (in chronological order!).
    Maybe you don't believe Einstein, either?
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    Mar 20, 2011 2:00 AM GMT
    Correction: sxydrkhair's problem isn't reading per se, but comprehension.