Should this love be denied?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 14, 2008 3:46 PM GMT
    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/03/13/pleitgen.incest.illegal.cnn
  • Squarejaw

    Posts: 1035

    Mar 14, 2008 5:02 PM GMT
    The clip is maddeningly vague -- they're going to court to be "treated as a couple"? What does that mean exactly?

    On the other hand, it's insane that this man is being sent to prison.
  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Mar 14, 2008 6:29 PM GMT
    By "treated as a couple," I guess they mean being treated as a legally acceptable couple.

    It seems kind of odd for him to be only one punished by law.

    The story reminds me of gay sibling fetishism, as expressed in Falcon Studios' The Brothers and a semi-infamous East / Central European gay-twins-doing-it film (due to that recent burglary incident in the US, it's gotten difficult to info on the aforementioned film).

    I'm curious how gay romantically involved siblings would fare; their inability to conceive with each other would negate the possibility for in-breeding and its consequences.
  • MSUBioNerd

    Posts: 1813

    Mar 14, 2008 7:23 PM GMT
    The consequences of inbreeding are the biggest issue I have with this type of relationship.

    Humans have a pretty intrinsic yuck factor to incest. At least, the vast majority of humans do. But the incest taboo seems to attach early in childhood. It's known as the Westermark effect, and basically except for a few rare outliers, it's very difficult for individuals housed together for the first few years of either of their lives to become romantically/sexually involved with each other. This applies whether they're related or not--it's been studied extensively in relation to the Israeli kibbutz system, in which unrelated children are raised communally and refuse to date each other later in life, even with strong social pressure from the adults to do so. On the other hand, siblings raised apart--most often due to adoption--do not feel this visceral avoidance, even when they're aware that they're siblings. Most don't go on to actually have children with each other, but there's a lack of unconscious "yuck".

    I think it's overkill to send one of them to jail for this, and I really don't like the double standard that only the brother is facing jail time, and the sister is not. However, I agree that the clip is vague. If they're suing for the right to get married, to file taxes jointly, etc, I'm much less sympathetic to them.

    Though I know it's popular in minority circles (and we gays are a minority) to feel we shouldn't exclude anyone or judge others for their actions...full siblings having children together is a very bad idea. Almost everyone is carrying a handful of rare recessive mutations that would have a disastrous effect if someone had two copies of a single one of them, but which are perfectly safe if you've got a normal version of one of them from your other parent. A pair of full siblings have a 25% chance per child of that child suffering from any one of these mutations they both got from the same parent, and for each mutation that either parent has, there's a 25% chance that a pair of their children would both have that mutation. This is order of magnitude higher than the risk in the general population. Many of these mutations will result in massive disability, or childhood death. Despite their massive harm, they aren't purged out of the population because they only have an effect when someone has two copies of the same one, and when the harmful versions are rare enough, they can't be removed from the population faster than new mutations to them arise. Because of the many problems associated with such severe disabilities, it is in the interests of society as a whole that full siblings not have children with each other. This isn't based on vague untested thoughts about needing role models in the home like the arguments against gays or lesbians raising children, but on empirical genetics. I would support the government not extending marriage rights to this couple, if that's what they're after.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 14, 2008 8:25 PM GMT
    Damn this grosses me out. I'm all for loving the one you're with, but incest and pedifilia are the most disgusting and in my mind the most inexcusable acts a person can perform. Of course, I've alway figured I'd allow for the courts to decide what an incestuous and adult-child should be treated as. I personlly feel they should go to the appropiate jails relative to their age and sexes. I don't condone those two act as something someone "sick" or something that someone does cause "they don't know any better". If anyone should suffer the penal system it should be pedifiles and siblings who Molest/Rape their unwilling siblings. But at the same time I struggle to keep my head and remind myself that there are some adult-child and incest relationships like that in the video that are strangely possible, no matter how much I hate it. This is something I wouldn't want to be solely responsible for judging, because it'd drive me crazy for years knowing that I'd condemn some RARE people who were actually in love, but for something I saw as absolutely disgusting. Not saying I'm labeling it as a sin. For me theirs Right, Wrong, and Debateable/Relative to your culture/heritage. I'm just far beyond believe that incest and pedifilia are Wrong... I'm half glad I responded getting this off my back; and all worked up and wish I didn't at the same. Damn, I wish I could be perfect sometimes.... and moreso the world could be.... :S
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 15, 2008 1:29 PM GMT
    I think MSUBioNerd has nicely summed up my feelings on the matter as well.

    In the end it's the kids that will suffer and that's not fair. They already have 2 kids with disabilities.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 15, 2008 3:13 PM GMT
    I think nature's defense against siblings interbreeding is that we develop an adversion to being sexually involved with those we grow up with....but this adversion is not innate.

    Nature's defense was foiled here, however, because these two didnt grow up together. So they didnt develop that adversion. And two of their four children suffer from the genetic consequences of inbreeding.

    I think the reason the husband/brother is going to jail and not the wife/sister is because one has to be out to take care of the kids.