Should We Help People That Want Us Dead?

  • metta

    Posts: 39119

    Nov 22, 2010 9:10 PM GMT
    Should We Help People That Want Us Dead?

    This is a tough one...when people are in trouble...you want to help them...right...

    But then when you learn that they would like to kill you or that they want their government to kill you because you are gay...well.....it makes me take a step back.


    [QUOTE]
    In favor of the amendment to remove sexual orientation from the resolution on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions (79):

    Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belize, Benin, Botswana, Brunei Dar-Sala, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, China, Comoros, Congo, Cote d’Ivoire, Cuba, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Democratic Republic of Congo, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, Haiti, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jamaica, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Niger, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Russian Federation, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and Grenadines, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, South Africa, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Syrian Arab Republic, Tajikistan, Tunisia, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United Republic of Tanzania, Uzbekistan, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe
    [/QUOTE]

    http://www.iglhrc.org/cgi-bin/iowa/article/pressroom/pressrelease/1257.html

    Haiti death toll rises to 1,344
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/11/22/haiti.cholera.alert/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

    I guess the right thing to do would be to continue to help them....right?
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    Nov 22, 2010 9:16 PM GMT
    I've already told my company that I will not go work in Haiti for that very reason (just turned down a two-week contract there last week).
  • Sk8Tex

    Posts: 738

    Nov 22, 2010 9:23 PM GMT
    The miseducation of those in power is no reason to let innocent children suffer from a horrible disease.

    icon_sad.gif
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    Nov 22, 2010 9:28 PM GMT
    In a world with limited resources decisions on who to help have to be made on some basis.
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    Nov 22, 2010 9:38 PM GMT
    Rationing will always be determined by the personal financial stake that everyone has. There is something to be said for compassion.
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    Nov 22, 2010 9:41 PM GMT
    Lostboy saidIn a world with limited resources decisions on who to help have to be made on some basis.


    I'd begun to believe there was no chance left for you to think realistically, but I'm happy to know that I was at least partially wrong.
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    Nov 22, 2010 9:49 PM GMT
    SanDiegoNewbie saidThe miseducation of those in power is no reason to let innocent children suffer from a horrible disease.

    icon_sad.gif


    THIS! Yes. There are limited resources and Haiti is not known for being particularly gay-friendly, but given the longstanding history of colonization and exploitation of Haiti, how can we not help them? It's called having a soul and some sense of a moral compass. (And, of course, there are gay people in every one of these countries, so do we abandon them?)
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    Nov 22, 2010 9:49 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    Lostboy saidIn a world with limited resources decisions on who to help have to be made on some basis.


    I'd begun to believe there was no chance left for you to think realistically, but I'm happy to know that I was at least partially wrong.


    Yes, but note that his basis (unlike yours) was not the ability to pay cash. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Nov 22, 2010 9:57 PM GMT
    metta8 saidBut then when you learn that they would like to kill you or that they want their government to kill you because you are gay...well.....it makes me take a step back.

    Actually, they don't necessarily want to kill you. (Homosexual acts ARE legal in Haiti) They simply feel other governments should be allowed to kill homosexuals if they please. There is a difference. It's the difference between malevolence and apathy.

    EDIT: interesting note - according to Wikipedia, homosexual acts are only illegal in some areas if you're male. (It's legal for females)
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    Nov 23, 2010 12:50 AM GMT
    Why would you write off every person in a country because of the actions of their politicians?
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    Nov 23, 2010 1:03 AM GMT
    I actually feel better about donations to the Red Cross for food, medicine and shelter in a country that voted in favor of the amendment (Haiti), than I do about the U.S. selling arms to a country that voted in favor of this amendment (Saudi Arabia). One is supporting impoverished people and the other is supporting a government, There is a difference.
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    Nov 23, 2010 2:48 AM GMT
    This is kind of off topic but Haiti is not self-sufficient. They practically survive off of other countries' donations, both prior and subsequent to the quake. If we stop supporting them they would most likely just all DIE. Regardless of whether they want gays dead or not, it kinda makes you think about whether it makes sense to keep them on permanent life support.
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    Nov 23, 2010 3:21 AM GMT
    By extending compassion in this way you show them they are wrong in their assessment of you. Others will see this, too. Others that count.

    -Doug
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    Nov 23, 2010 4:17 AM GMT
    Christian73 said...There are limited resources...


    I disagree. We live in a world of abundance and there is plenty for all. Avarice and the myth of scarcity is a root of the poverty of humanity.

    By giving, by teaching others to give, by teaching others how to teach others to give, we develop a virtuous cycle that can pull humanity from poverty and bring peace to all.

    It starts with education and awareness of a new paradigm.
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    Nov 23, 2010 4:18 AM GMT
    meninlove said By extending compassion in this way you show them they are wrong in their assessment of you. Other will see this, too. Others that count.

    -Doug


    THIS!
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    Nov 23, 2010 11:26 AM GMT
    SanDiegoNewbie saidThe miseducation of those in power is no reason to let innocent children suffer from a horrible disease.

    icon_sad.gif
    It is when it's the govt you were going to work for...especially if you're openly gay and refuse to go back in the closet just to appease them while you're there.
  • Sk8Tex

    Posts: 738

    Nov 23, 2010 3:35 PM GMT
    paulflexes said
    SanDiegoNewbie saidThe miseducation of those in power is no reason to let innocent children suffer from a horrible disease.

    icon_sad.gif
    It is when it's the govt you were going to work for...especially if you're openly gay and refuse to go back in the closet just to appease them while you're there.


    Keep in mind this Holiday season instead of stuffing turkeys and putting presents under the christmas tree these people will be burying loved ones. This topic makes my stomach turn.
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    Nov 23, 2010 3:41 PM GMT
    GAMRican said
    Christian73 said...There are limited resources...


    I disagree. We live in a world of abundance and there is plenty for all. Avarice and the myth of scarcity is a root of the poverty of humanity.

    By giving, by teaching others to give, by teaching others how to teach others to give, we develop a virtuous cycle that can pull humanity from poverty and bring peace to all.

    It starts with education and awareness of a new paradigm.


    This is simply wishful thinking. Unless you can find a way to help third world countries stop having so many children the poverty cycle will not only remain it will grow and become more severe. Allocation of resources is not the answer. In a couple decades there will simply not be enough resources to support the earth's population. Anything people do in developed countries to "save" the planet or the environment accomplishes nothing. There are rising economic powerhouses like China who care little about the environment and aren't interested in driving priuses around, adopting a somalian baby instead of having their own or giving away half of their fortune when they die.

  • Sk8Tex

    Posts: 738

    Nov 23, 2010 4:07 PM GMT
    Even if I try my hardest and still accomplish nothing at least I will be able to go to bed at night knowing that I tried. The whole concept of the world not having enough resources for its population is a moot point. We are not talking about the future here we are talking about men, women, and children who are currently suffering in poverty. Famine stricken, sick and dying in the streets in front of the families and friends right now. We do have the resources to currently help them but the sentiment here seems to be, "They hate me, so let them all die."

    Can you even imagine visiting your dead loved ones in a pit of other rotting bodies? That's Haitis current reality.

    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
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    Nov 23, 2010 4:55 PM GMT
    It's complicated.

    Understand, humans have a long ways to go. False belief systems and parochial governments are a huge danger to civilization and it's important that we educate folks about what they truly are. Religion / cults are responsible for most evil in The World.

    We can't go around killing folks (100,000s in Iraq) who have differences with us. It just doesn't work out. E.g., $4,200 for a bomb in a printer, and, now...BILLIONS for the military industrial complex on scanners that don't work to detect that explosive.

    You don't have to have false belief systems to be good to your fellow man. I think we should be good to our fellow man, but, without all the religious garbage attached.

    Do win allies when we're kind? I hope so. Do you support folks like Cuba, or North Korea? I don't know. You have to break the regimes.

    Like I say, it's complicated. We reap what we sow.
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    Nov 23, 2010 5:30 PM GMT
    In times of crisis, I think there is something of a moral imperative to help. But I think it's important to recognize that we should give not because we have any expectation of a return but because we want to - nor because we are forced to (it's not charity if it's forced).

    Within the world of foreign aid, I think we need to differentiate between relief and development. Absolute poverty and hunger is a direct result of corrupt government policies and for this reason - and having worked in development myself, I will rarely give for development - the premise that fueling corrupt regimes will somehow create goodwill is also highly suspect. It should further be noted that countries that do develop (invariably with free(er) markets) also result in greater freedoms for minorities including gay men and women. But in the case of relief, where people are stricken by natural events as in the case of Haiti, I think the moral imperative is clear.

    This being said, there would still be varying shades of grey - what would you do if you found pirates adrift on a shipwreck? If you were the British Royal Marines, you'd rescue them and set them free, but I can't say I would have been nearly as charitable.

    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htseamo/articles/20101122.aspx (Click for the whole thing)

    Pirates Rescued From Shipwreck And Freed To Pirate Again

    November 22, 2010: A British replenishment (supply) ship, the RFA Fort Victoria (armed with four 20mm autocannon and some Royal Marines), searching for pirate mother ships far from the Somali coast, came across a small sea going boat that was drifting. When some Royal Marines were sent to investigate, the men on the suspect boat were seen throwing their weapons overboard. The small boat had 13 men aboard, along with quantities of equipment used to board ships. The Somalis admitted they were pirates, and had been at sea for 45 days, most of it adrift after their engine died and their radio along with it. They had rigged one of their boarding ladders to carry a sail, trying to get home. The Royal Marines took the Somalis to the 31,000 ton Fort Victoria (which also had a helicopter pad aft, and an armed helicopter used to search for pirates), and then burned the pirate's boat. The pirates were later dropped off on the Somali coast, free to be pirates again.
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    Nov 23, 2010 6:51 PM GMT
    SanDiegoNewbie saidEven if I try my hardest and still accomplish nothing at least I will be able to go to bed at night knowing that I tried. The whole concept of the world not having enough resources for its population is a moot point. We are not talking about the future here we are talking about men, women, and children who are currently suffering in poverty. Famine stricken, sick and dying in the streets in front of the families and friends right now. We do have the resources to currently help them but the sentiment here seems to be, "They hate me, so let them all die."

    Can you even imagine visiting your dead loved ones in a pit of other rotting bodies? That's Haitis current reality.

    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.


    But the world is already headed toward unsustainable overpopulation -- there's no way around it. Stated factually, if some people don't die now others will just die later, it's a matter of time. I think that on a personal level, however, we should do as much as possible -- we do it because we have compassion and we care and we understand that if we were in that position we would appreciate someone helping us.
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    Nov 23, 2010 7:01 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidBut the world is already headed toward unsustainable overpopulation -- there's no way around it.


    On this we definitely disagree - no, we're really not. It's this myth that gives birth to highly destructive policies that disadvantage most countries that seek to develop. In this zero sum world, it gives rise to downright evil ideas like forced sterilization / depo prevera in the developing world.

    A somewhat simplistic look - but it does illustrate the point:
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    Nov 23, 2010 7:11 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    mocktwinkie saidBut the world is already headed toward unsustainable overpopulation -- there's no way around it.


    On this we definitely disagree - no, we're really not. It's this myth that gives birth to highly destructive policies that disadvantage most countries that seek to develop. In this zero sum world, it gives rise to downright evil ideas like forced sterilization / depo prevera in the developing world.

    A somewhat simplistic look - but it does illustrate the point:


    Yes, we certainly disagree on this. Which countries "seeking" development are being "held back"?
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    Nov 23, 2010 7:19 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    riddler78 said
    mocktwinkie saidBut the world is already headed toward unsustainable overpopulation -- there's no way around it.


    On this we definitely disagree - no, we're really not. It's this myth that gives birth to highly destructive policies that disadvantage most countries that seek to develop. In this zero sum world, it gives rise to downright evil ideas like forced sterilization / depo prevera in the developing world.

    A somewhat simplistic look - but it does illustrate the point:


    Yes, we certainly disagree on this. Which countries "seeking" development are being "held back"?


    I wouldn't and haven't said that it's overpopulation policies that are holding back development - that's strictly in the realm of bad governments/policies which may or may not be compounded by the rationale of overpopulation. (The history of depo prevera is widely known at least in development circles - and forced sterilization is evil). One obvious country though that will need to deal with significant issues as a result of concerns about overpopulation is China - but this is but a series of problems it will need to deal with.

    Incidentally, any arguments of overpopulation relate to projections based on current usage that have proven to be consistently wrong in hindsight. Do you have any other evidence that suggests overpopulation is a real concern? (as you note yourself however, this is an important argument to understand given the alternative is the "let them all die" attitude it gives logical rise to).