A Homophobia Cause = Male Chauvinism?

  • xKorix

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    Dec 03, 2010 5:10 AM GMT
    A thought I had. A lot of heated debates go on about fem guys and there seems to be a lot of hostility toward fem guys. It seems femininity stirs up a lot of shame in people as if being open with or expressing femininity is something to be ashamed of or that it's wrong and something real men don't do. I guess societal values of masculinity of infected us as well i.e. femininity is something to be ashamed of. Being "soft", "emotional", "irrational" etc. is wrong while being "stoic", "athletic", and "rational" is right. I think this is something straight men deal with too. Am I man enough? I gotta be a certain way or else there's something wrong with me. I guess the point of all this is, is a lot of the anger and hostility caused by male chauvinism? That masculinity is right and femininity is wrong(and by extension, women themselves?) I do believe the stuff we don't like in others are things we've denied or repressed in ourselves, femininity being one of them. We're all born with masculine and feminine parts and both are deserving of acceptance and expression. As kids, we cry, we get scared, we need to be held and hugged, we can be irrational, flamboyant, expressive, silly, etc. But depending on our environments those behaviors seem to stop happening and those parts seem to show and less and less as we grow older. Its not like those parts just disappear. I don't know it seems the route of all this is denial or hatred of femininity. Sorry this isn't a very coherent argument at the moment, just some thoughts I had...
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    Dec 03, 2010 5:27 AM GMT
    Feminine characteristics in a guy aren't shameful, however they're not exhibiting behaviour that turns some guys here on. They're reminding some guys of women. It just is what it is.

    BUT there are a lot of guys here that don't see that; they like the way a guy is, feminine or butch (lol!) and there's where any guy has a better chance.

    -Doug
  • xKorix

    Posts: 607

    Dec 03, 2010 5:34 AM GMT
    I was not saying they're shameful nor do I believe they are. I just see the way people react towards these kind of behaviors and its very judge-mental as if it something to be ashamed of.
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    Dec 03, 2010 1:40 PM GMT
    I think more and more people are comfortable now coming out of the closet--including masculine gays... who are lucky enough to have blended in with straight men while avoiding the anti-gay bullying that many fem guys experience.

    But I think some [insecure] masculine guys are sick of the way the media and the majority of the straight community portrays homosexuality. I think some masculine gay guys feel a need to distnce themselves from the "homosexual community" (whatever that is) and even attack those gays who are more feminine.

    I know it's a cliche, but in my eyes, those msaculine gay guys who seem insecure around fems (enough to insult fems and/or over-compensate for their own masculinity) are actually displaying the ugliness of their character; the words/actions of uber butch gays against fem gays tells me more about their personality than of those gays who are fem.

    Some guys are masculine.

    Some guys are feminine.

    Some guys are inbetween.

    Get over it.
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    Dec 03, 2010 1:41 PM GMT
    I've noticed the same thing and thought it weird. Gay men seem to be much more hated than gay women.Taking the bottom role seems to be worse in a lot of people's mind because it's the woman's role. Especially among straight men. I can't tell you how many times straight people have said to me, "We like you because you don't act feminine". They're more ok with me being gay than if I were to be feminine. Makes me wonder why femininity is so reviled. People even proudly call little masculine girls "tomboy" and shamefully call little feminine boys "sissy". I think it's cross-cultural too.
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    Dec 03, 2010 2:35 PM GMT
    In some cultures, like Ancient Greek and even early Christian, there was a virtue called andreia (tr. manfulness), for which even women were praised when they attained it and demonstrated it. One definition of manful is: Having or showing the bravery and resoluteness considered characteristic of a man.

    So, whether that attitude is innate in humanity or simply characteristic of a time and place, it goes way back, and it has no doubt influenced modern attitudes as well.
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    Dec 03, 2010 7:14 PM GMT
    Look how many dyk's abandon femanity to appear more masculine, yet they hate it in men, yet ooze what they hate. You also have female chauvinist too, so it's not just restricted to men, or the gays.
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    Dec 03, 2010 8:38 PM GMT
    Femininity gets a bad rap in American culture. From gays, straights, women, everyone.
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    Dec 03, 2010 9:08 PM GMT
    Posiden saidFemininity gets a bad rap in American culture. From gays, straights, women, everyone.


    Matey not just in America!
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    Dec 03, 2010 10:32 PM GMT
    Two female columnists of the Daily Mail newspaper; Melanie Phillips and Amanda Platell had in the recent past lashed out at the decline of the British Stiff Upper Lip since the death of Princess Diana in August, 1997. Both of these had written that British society had lost its stoicism (a Greek word) along with the stiff upper lip (an expression that originated in the USA) to become an emotional, mawkish and sentimental nation with a trembling lower lip which, according to Phillips, had watered down British masculinity. Platell, born in Perth, Australia and grew up there, backpacked the UK around 1984 and decided to remain here after observing how stoic the Brits were when facing a crisis. She stated that this masculinity was an "admirable quality, unique to Britain."

    Yet when the 33 Colombian miners showed high spirits when they were discovered buried in that underground pit, and not a trace of panic or impatience were seen among them as they were rescued one by one - Platell was nowhere to be seen. She conveniently took that week off, and when her column appeared the following week, there was not a peep of praise from her to those miners. Yet had the miners been British, she would have splashed her page all over with "the finest demonstration of British stoicism".

    As to the widow of a British soldier who died in Afghanistan, Platell named her Woman of the Year (2009) for not shedding a tear at her husband's funeral, yet again, not a peep from her when an American pilot stoically brought a distressed airline safely down onto the Hudson River, saving the lives of everyone on board.

    Stoicism is an admirable quality where ever it is found, regardless of nationality. But I would much more shake the hand of a effeminate gay man who has saved someones life than tolerate the stinking hypocrisy of writers such as Platell and Phillips.

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    Dec 03, 2010 10:49 PM GMT
    I wonder if some of it comes from the days when the hunters were out in the wild and it took strength and endurance to achieve the mission of a successful hunt to feed the family? Be strong for the women and children, get out there and hike the hills, chase the prey. In today's society it's definitely perceived as a sign of weakness in both the str8 and gay communities. I think in many respects physically there is a difference in strength but emotionally, I think the guys with more femininity might actually be healthier for feeling free to express it.
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    Dec 03, 2010 11:41 PM GMT
    NotThatOld saidTwo female columnists of the Daily Mail newspaper; Melanie Phillips and Amanda Platell had in the recent past lashed out at the decline of the British Stiff Upper Lip since the death of Princess Diana in August, 1997. Both of these had written that British society had lost its stoicism (a Greek word) along with the stiff upper lip (an expression that originated in the USA) to become an emotional, mawkish and sentimental nation with a trembling lower lip which, according to Phillips, had watered down British masculinity. Platell, born in Perth, Australia and grew up there, backpacked the UK around 1984 and decided to remain here after observing how stoic the Brits were when facing a crisis. She stated that this masculinity was an "admirable quality, unique to Britain."

    Yet when the 33 Colombian miners showed high spirits when they were discovered buried in that underground pit, and not a trace of panic or impatience were seen among them as they were rescued one by one - Platell was nowhere to be seen. She conveniently took that week off, and when her column appeared the following week, there was not a peep of praise from her to those miners. Yet had the miners been British, she would have splashed her page all over with "the finest demonstration of British stoicism".

    As to the widow of a British soldier who died in Afghanistan, Platell named her Woman of the Year (2009) for not shedding a tear at her husband's funeral, yet again, not a peep from her when an American pilot stoically brought a distressed airline safely down onto the Hudson River, saving the lives of everyone on board.

    Stoicism is an admirable quality where ever it is found, regardless of nationality. But I would much more shake the hand of a effeminate gay man who has saved someones life than tolerate the stinking hypocrisy of writers such as Platell and Phillips.



    I myself seen that stiff upper lip in the British people when their transport system, endured a terrorist attack, after the death of Lady Dianna Spencer. I also seen the stoic in the Tasmanian miners who where also trapped, in a mining disaster, both are still alive and well. I myself feel a lot of Aussie men are also very stoic.
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    Dec 04, 2010 2:20 AM GMT
    That's an interesting theory, very hard to prove though. There's a few other roots of homophobia though.

    I think the one of main cause of homophobia is self loathing and a lot fear of being exposed or forced out of the closet by out of the closet men, not being accepted by society, etc... There's other complicated issues with homophobes. Interesting (and sometimes scary) psychology with homophobia.

    Everyone has varying degrees of feminine and masculine traits- straight, bi or gay. Some just have more feminine than masculine and that's fine.
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    Dec 04, 2010 6:50 PM GMT
    True_blue_aussie said
    NotThatOld said

    Stoicism is an admirable quality where ever it is found, regardless of nationality.



    I myself seen that stiff upper lip in the British people when their transport system, endured a terrorist attack, after the death of Lady Dianna Spencer. I also seen the stoic in the Tasmanian miners who where also trapped, in a mining disaster, both are still alive and well. I myself feel a lot of Aussie men are also very stoic.


    There you are. Stoicism is not a uniquely British quality, although journalists such as Platell would argue until she's blue in her face that Aussies and Tassies are just descendants of the British colonisers and their genetic inheritance had remained intact.
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    Dec 04, 2010 9:54 PM GMT
    Oh yes, stoic, the indifference to pleasure or pain.

    I don't consider it a virtue. It is merely the opposite of hysteria, which isn't cool either. Now somewhere in between the two is reality and mental health.



    -Doug
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    Dec 05, 2010 7:32 PM GMT
    So, I've really changed my thoughts on this lately. Fem guys really have to have a lot of masculine traits just to be brave enough to go against the cultural grain.

    I'm more attracted to the straight-acting guys like a lot of men on this site, but I hate that masculine and feminine are the only words we have to describe our tastes. We really need to come up with better words that paint people more respectfully and honestly.

    The issue is gonna just grow since so many guys that can pass are choosing to come out. The variety of type of gay guys is on the rise, and we shouldn't let that start factionalizing us.