Gay and Christian - My Struggle

  • Mark5511

    Posts: 14

    Dec 12, 2010 2:43 PM GMT
    Hey,

    Just joined the forum. This is my first post.

    I am gay and a Christian, and this has been a source of conflict for me, since the Bible seems to suggest that homosexuality is wrong. Homosexually is even mentioned in a list of "sins" that prevent people from entering the kingdom of heaven. (Read article here: http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/Warning%207%20Homosexuality.html )

    I've heard a few arguments-- some argue that it is a problem in translation from the Bible's original language into English, which would mean that the word translated as 'homosexuality' really means something else, and that God does not disprove of homosexuality.

    Anyway, the fact that I am attracted to members of my own sex can't really be helped, and I can't imagine that God would condemn anyone for something they cannot help. However, I can chose not to ever be in a relationship and to never have sex.

    I just don't know what is the right thing to do.

    I consider myself a progressive person, and I don't plan on accepting anything anyone says as truth unless I believe it myself.

    I've heard arguments against homosexuality, and I would like to here the other side addressing what the Bible says. If you don't know enough of what the Bible says to address it, that's fine. I'd still like to hear what you think.

    While I welcome comments from anyone, it would be really nice to hear from those who share my faith or have knowledge of the Bible.

    And just one last note-- please know that while stereotypes about Christians may be accurate for some, they are not always true. The stereotype about Christians being judgmental does not apply to me. Point being: I won't be judging anyone because they're gay. (I am gay too after all!) Hopefully you will not judge me for being a Christian.

    So anyway, what do you think about this issue?
  • helios01

    Posts: 349

    Dec 12, 2010 2:48 PM GMT
    ~(hug)~
    yay! Hi... I'm in the same boat. I'm Catholic. I love going to church sometimes and learning about the mysteries.... But i am Gay which is a route to hell icon_sad.gif
    i know how u feel and from me u wont be judged for being christian icon_smile.gif
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    Dec 12, 2010 2:56 PM GMT
    Well, I hope you have asbestos underwear. There will likely be flaming posts here.

    I'm christian (notice the small c - it's deliberate) and gay and have no conflict with the two. The bible was written by people that were not only sure the world was flat, but that the sun went around it. People couldn't fly, and it took endless amounts of sperm to get a woman preggers. Mental illness? No such thing, it was demons! Physical illness? What sin did you commit for god to deliver such a judgment?

    So taken into the above context, sinful homosexuality by gay people is like people flying. Think of that the next time you see a jumbo jet full of tourists take off. icon_wink.gif

    -Doug

    PS what's the biggest truth in that book? Oh yes, something about loving one another as yourselves. Is there a danger there, too? Yes. Some people have very very twisted and ghastly love for themselves (emotional and spiritual self-flagellation comes to mind as one example), and deliver that unto others. Ugh!



  • Mark5511

    Posts: 14

    Dec 12, 2010 3:03 PM GMT
    helios01 said~(hug)~
    yay! Hi... I'm in the same boat. I'm Catholic. I love going to church sometimes and learning about the mysteries.... But i am Gay which is a route to hell icon_sad.gif
    i know how u feel and from me u wont be judged for being christian icon_smile.gif


    Hey man,

    So I'm guessing you were being sarcastic, but do you really believe that it is a route to hell?
  • Mark5511

    Posts: 14

    Dec 12, 2010 3:09 PM GMT
    meninlove said Well, I hope you have asbestos underwear. There will likely be flaming posts here.

    I'm christian (notice the small c - it's deliberate) and gay and have no conflict with the two. The bible was written by people that were not only sure the world was flat, but that the sun went around it. People couldn't fly, and it took endless amounts of sperm to get a woman preggers. Mental illness? No such thing, it was demons! Physical illness? What sin did you commit for god to deliver such a judgment?

    So taken into the above context, sinful homosexuality by gay people is like people flying. Think of that the next time you see a jumbo jet full of tourists take off. icon_wink.gif

    -Doug

    PS what's the biggest truth in that book? Oh yes, something about loving one another as yourselves. Is there a danger there, too? Yes. Some people have very very twisted and ghastly love for themselves (emotional and spiritual self-flagellation comes to mind as one example), and deliver that unto others. Ugh!





    You're making a good argument-- one that I think about often. Still, if there is a God (and I believe there is), he probably wouldn't be held down by human ignorance. He would know that the world is round, that mental illnesses are real, etc.

    Even if the Bible was physically written by humans, I believe it is God's way of sharing truths with us, and showing us how to live.

    Just something to think about.

    But like I said, I definitely see the logic in your argument, and I don't disagree.
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    Dec 12, 2010 3:19 PM GMT


    "Still, if there is a God (and I believe there is), he probably wouldn't be held down by human ignorance. He would know that the world is round, that mental illnesses are real, etc.

    Even if the Bible was physically written by humans, I believe it is God's way of sharing truths with us, and showing us how to live."

    If it was written by humans? I think there's the crux of your conflict. Christ's apostles fought over meanings and how they saw christ and god. Just think, if everyone had followed Paul literally, there would be no people today.

    I believe in god, but not as he or she. What would god need a set of genitalia for? Christ healed mental illnesses, but never said that was what he was doing. It was 'casting out demons' as proclaimed by the writers of that book.

    The book is full of good messages, and just as many dark for those that require darkness and an angry vengeful god, cool and implacable, impatient of worthless man, waiting for an opportune moment to strike him down in his sin.

    The choice is ours. The book speaks solely to the reader, and no other.

    -Doug

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    Dec 12, 2010 3:21 PM GMT
    PS Of course god would know the earth is round etc, mental illness etc. This is an obvious clue that the book was not written by god.

    -Doug
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    Dec 12, 2010 4:05 PM GMT
    I grew up in a Christian based, non fundamentalist family, and never heard from the church about homosexuality being right or wrong. It was never discussed. I got my sense of guilt and shame from my peers and society in general.

    As I grew into a 30s something adult, I entered into the Evangelical church and this was really the first time I saw a body of people so focused on the evil of being gay. It wasn't so much my own body of believers, but the large Evangelical church, ie: Falwell, Robertson, Roberts etc. that seemed preoccupied with this.

    I followed the bible as a fundamentalist, knowing that I was a gay, married man and the father of two sons. As I became more studied in the faith and the bible, and began to know more about my God and me and the so called 'personal realtionship' with Christ, I realized that what I had committed to was a 'corporate' idea, and not faith. I took from the bible what I beleived to be the truth (NIV red letter, the words of Jesus) and pretty much regarded the remainder as folk lore, history, and somewhat a road map on life. I was an adult Sunday school teacher, a senior high teacher and senior high bible camp counsellor, so I have a grounded knowledge of what I speak.

    If you want to take the bible literally, then every Christian in the world is a sinner contravening Leviticus, Deuteronomy and other 'rules' of the Jews.

    Christ's words make no condemnations and his law is simple. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself.

    The turning point for me was realizing faith comes in steps. The 'church' was one step and i have passed that. I am in a spiritual journey where Christ, not the church, is part, but not all, of the journey. I no longer condemn myself for being gay, I know in the Creator's wisdom, I was formed that way for a purpose, the answer to which I will get when I return to the mother ship.

    Long winded, but my idea is the bible is like a road map, you don't look at the entire map when you travel, just the part that you need to get you to your destination.

    Keep the 'personal' alive in the relationship and ditch the rest. You'll find peace and faith lie together.......................Keithicon_cool.gif
  • wellwell

    Posts: 2265

    Dec 12, 2010 5:00 PM GMT
    ...Find another religion, or go str8. Simple.
    Your "struggle" isn't over, regardless.
  • Karnage

    Posts: 704

    Dec 12, 2010 5:07 PM GMT
    I was raised Catholic, so I know exactly the struggle you're going through. My philosophy was always that if God made me this way, then it cannot be a sin.

    Here are a couple good resources that I've used in the past. They mostly use Christian theology and the Bible to defend why homosexuality is NOT wrong. The second one is a lot more lengthy and in depth than the first, but they're both great reads!

    http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/article.php?id=2205
    http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:08 PM GMT
    You are right to feel conflict between your sexuality and an Abrahamic religion that has spent thousands of years condemning homosexuality. There are, of course, plenty of moderate 'gay-friendly' Christian churches these days. Unfortunately, most still use that bigot's charter, the Bible, as the basis of their faith. IMHO, being gay and a Christian (or a member of any Judeo-Christian-Muslim religion) are incompatible. You did not choose your sexuality, but you can choose your religious beliefs.
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:10 PM GMT
    my suggestion? read some richard dawkins. icon_smile.gif
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:18 PM GMT
    False. Because homosexuality was only added to the list sometime after 1950, when the word homosexual was coined. As both homo and sexualis both existed as words when the Bible is written, it is reasonable to assume that they aren't condemning those with same sex attractions because the words to say such existed when the Bible was written.

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    Dec 12, 2010 5:19 PM GMT
    This is a topic I need to stay out of.
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:20 PM GMT

    O.o Animus.

    1950s? citations please.

    -Doug
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:23 PM GMT
    hmm why is it a struggle for you? If you truly understand the teachings of the lord you will feel more than ok to worship without an issue on your conscience. I go to church every Sunday and i worship as i understand that the teachings of Christ originally had nothing to do with ignoring and leaving out people. Its mans interpretation that choose to alienate people they thought were not good for society...so get over it..you dont worship for other people..you worship to find inner peace.
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:24 PM GMT
    musefreek saidmy suggestion? read some richard dawkins. icon_smile.gif


    Totally agree... do some reading... Richard Dawkins is a great suggestion... The God Delusion is a good start..
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:24 PM GMT
    Take from the bible what is relevant for today.
    In terms of gayness and stuff, they most likely didn't get it back then, or realize that it was an intrinsic issue rather than an evil act.
    Also, it was quite common withen the Roman empire, so it may have been used as propaganda against them! U never know!
    The bible was a guide for then, and to an extent is relevant for now, with a bit to tweeking!
  • FredMG

    Posts: 988

    Dec 12, 2010 5:25 PM GMT
    Mark5511 saidHey,

    Just joined the forum. This is my first post.

    I am gay and a Christian, and this has been a source of conflict for me, since the Bible seems to suggest that homosexuality is wrong. Homosexually is even mentioned in a list of "sins" that prevent people from entering the kingdom of heaven. (Read article here: http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/Warning%207%20Homosexuality.html )

    I've heard a few arguments-- some argue that it is a problem in translation from the Bible's original language into English, which would mean that the word translated as 'homosexuality' really means something else, and that God does not disprove of homosexuality.

    Anyway, the fact that I am attracted to members of my own sex can't really be helped, and I can't imagine that God would condemn anyone for something they cannot help. However, I can chose not to ever be in a relationship and to never have sex.

    I just don't know what is the right thing to do.

    I consider myself a progressive person, and I don't plan on accepting anything anyone says as truth unless I believe it myself.

    I've heard arguments against homosexuality, and I would like to here the other side addressing what the Bible says. If you don't know enough of what the Bible says to address it, that's fine. I'd still like to hear what you think.

    While I welcome comments from anyone, it would be really nice to hear from those who share my faith or have knowledge of the Bible.

    And just one last note-- please know that while stereotypes about Christians may be accurate for some, they are not always true. The stereotype about Christians being judgmental does not apply to me. Point being: I won't be judging anyone because they're gay. (I am gay too after all!) Hopefully you will not judge me for being a Christian.

    So anyway, what do you think about this issue?


    Well a couple of points of order that obfusticate the writings of the bible.

    Most of the old testament, was written in Aramaic, and then translated into Ancient Greek, then into Latin and then into archaic English, 400 years ago (kind of the cliff notes version) The Gospels were written in Latin, and then translated into English - so i'd guess the Gospels suffer from a little less politically motivated translation/transliteration. The old testament (where all the sin comes from) at best may be just the spirit of the orginal writings.

    So, the beliefs that have always kept my faith in the devine are:

    1. God (or Allah, or Yahwe, the Goddess, Budda) or whoever (and from here on refered to as the Divine is so far above us, that applying concepts such as male, female good, bad, loving, is pointless. In a very Celtic-Pagan way I view the divine as "All knowing, All powerful, and Completly Inscrutible".

    2. The Divine is the light in the dimond, faith is the structure, religion and people are the facets.

    3. We are imperfect, and too small to interpret all of the Divine, so at best we should just love and not judge each other and be kind and forgiving.

    One interesting point of order/interest is the very last phrase in the Bible, is where it curses the person(s) who add or delete from this book. If we are "going to hell" we selectivly sin because we eat cock and sin thusly, so are all the people who eat bacon, shrimp, aldulterous people, who also "pick and choose" which sin is "deadly".

    The last closing not is that if Jehova says "Thou shalt not have no other god before me" confims that there are other gods, and goddesses. ergo:
    - following the teachings of Jehova & Jesus, Moses and Mohommed are to ensure your acceptance into their after death club.
    - other Gods and Goddesses offer equal benifits and aren't as Judgemental.

    So, in that light I'm a Pagan, I do no harm to others, do as I will, and that's all the mother Goddess asks (again cliff notes version) I love your Christ as I do all prophets and all the Goddesses Children, but the Christians that are not Christ-like, and hateful -- er not so much.

    Happy Sabbath of Mithrias - and Jesus, remember the Sunday Sabath was brought to you by Rome, not Moses. For which we all may be going to hell as we have "forgotten the sabbath day, and don't keep it holy".

    Peace, Be well, and welcome to the Forum - arena down the street to the left, bath's to the right ;)
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:26 PM GMT
    As someone who went through 13 years of catholic schooling and saw the people behave differently from what we were "taught", I realised you have to make life better for you on your own terms. People can say they're good christians...show me, don't tell me.

    The bible has been rewritten for so many years before the version we have now was finalized. Once you read the history of the church and the bible, you'll see how things have been put, re worded or kept out in the of "God" when in reality it was about power and corruption.
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:28 PM GMT
    Mizzoni2x2 saidTake from the bible what is relevant for today.


    That's a book you'll be able to read from cover-to-cover in about 8 seconds.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:28 PM GMT
    Mizzoni2x2 saidTake from the bible what is relevant for today.
    In terms of gayness and stuff, they most likely didn't get it back then, or realize that it was an intrinsic issue rather than an evil act.
    Also, it was quite common withen the Roman empire, so it may have been used as propaganda against them! U never know!
    The bible was a guide for then, and to an extent is relevant for now, with a bit to tweeking!



    Very likely it was part of the decree to 'be fruitful and multiply'. The mortality rate was extreme with babies, and only about two out of five made it past puberty. Of them, only some made it to adult. Death was everywhere and easily happened.

    -Doug
  • maximumrisk

    Posts: 799

    Dec 12, 2010 5:33 PM GMT
    Mark5511 saidHey,

    Just joined the forum. This is my first post.

    I am gay and a Christian, and this has been a source of conflict for me, since the Bible seems to suggest that homosexuality is wrong. Homosexually is even mentioned in a list of "sins" that prevent people from entering the kingdom of heaven. (Read article here: http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/Warning%207%20Homosexuality.html )

    I've heard a few arguments-- some argue that it is a problem in translation from the Bible's original language into English, which would mean that the word translated as 'homosexuality' really means something else, and that God does not disprove of homosexuality.

    Anyway, the fact that I am attracted to members of my own sex can't really be helped, and I can't imagine that God would condemn anyone for something they cannot help. However, I can chose not to ever be in a relationship and to never have sex.

    I just don't know what is the right thing to do.

    I consider myself a progressive person, and I don't plan on accepting anything anyone says as truth unless I believe it myself.

    I've heard arguments against homosexuality, and I would like to here the other side addressing what the Bible says. If you don't know enough of what the Bible says to address it, that's fine. I'd still like to hear what you think.

    While I welcome comments from anyone, it would be really nice to hear from those who share my faith or have knowledge of the Bible.

    And just one last note-- please know that while stereotypes about Christians may be accurate for some, they are not always true. The stereotype about Christians being judgmental does not apply to me. Point being: I won't be judging anyone because they're gay. (I am gay too after all!) Hopefully you will not judge me for being a Christian.

    So anyway, what do you think about this issue?


    My whole Family is Katholic except me and eventhough I dont share your beliefe, I know by now that you cant judge a Religion by what People interpret it to be. If you believe what other People say, then you will always question yourself.

    I dont argue about what the different Religions represent, but in the end its always their Version of how it is supposed to be. That gives People guidence and help when they need them, but please dont forget that many of those Books available have nothing to do with the Original version of the Bible or whatever. It is the Peoples interpretation and People have always been flawed. That makes us...us, so dont worry to much about it.

    Stay strong in your believe and ignore the Interpretation of others, because there is nothing wrong with you or any of us.
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:37 PM GMT
    Just remember, NOBODY knows what happens after death no matter what they try to tell you. The Bible was written by men, and there is so much proof of that that it is not debated. Homosexuality is written in the Bible as an abomination in the same part that says shaving your beard is an abomination, growing plants indoors is an abomination, wearing clothing made of different types of fabrics is an abomination. Do you think the church is telling all the people who do those things they are going to hell (which is a made up place)? The church is an organization based on convenience and manipulation. Here are some of the things the church used to teach that are now forgotten:
    -left handed people are evil and are going to hell ( the latin word for "left" is "sinister")
    -if you get a divorce you will go to hell
    -vaccinations are immoral - as only god can decide if you can get a disease
    -respirators are immoral as only god can decide when you die (now they have completely reversed themselves and say you CANNOT take anybody off a life support machine)
    -slavery is supported in the Bible
    -women should be the obedient property of their husbands
    -women do not deserve equal treatment to men
    -the earth is the center of the universe (when Galileo and Copernicus discovered this was not true they were imprisoned by the church)
    -condoms cause aids - this is truly sad. In sub-saharan Africa where people are uneducated, the church is spreading this lie to make people not use condoms. Of course, it is a polygamous society there and aids is in 70% of the population. So as far as I'm concerned the church is committing genocide.
    I know you were taught to believe that the church was an infallible institution and is somehow connected with God, but that is just not true. God is about finding your inner light. It's about questioning things so they become clear to you. It's about loving yourself and others and not judging. Do not take the word of an institution that gets its power from manipulating the uneducated masses. Remember: the Bible was written by men for men. There was no God involved. You, as a good human being, have way more self worth than any church can.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 12, 2010 5:38 PM GMT
    Been there. Check these out for some thought-provoking reads:

    http://johnshore.com/gays-xtians/

    http://www.familyacceptance.com/