College dudes...isnt this still cheating?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 19, 2008 6:06 PM GMT
    Story Highlights

    > Student faced expulsion for creating Facebook study group

    > Professor said he stipulated assignments be done alone

    > Avenir was given a zero on the assignment section of the chemistry course

    > Student will pass class, but have to attend academic misconduct workshop

    "Avenir's supporters argued the online group he ran was no different from any kind of homework help or tutoring circle. But a professor, who had stipulated assignments be done independently, discovered the group, gave the student an F and then charged him with academic misconduct."


    Since the Prof. stipulated that the assignments were to be done alone isnt this cheating?

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/03/19/facebook.cheating.ap/index.html
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    Mar 19, 2008 6:18 PM GMT
    Oh....
    I thought this was gonna be a post explaining how sleeping with college guys isn't really cheating.
    I'm so crestfallen now.

    In all seriousity, though, that's a toughie. It would all depend on how hot the student in question was.
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    Mar 19, 2008 6:33 PM GMT
    it's called avoiding the paper trail. at my school you're not allowed to have organized drinking events in Residence, nor play drinking games. so , the old way around it? close the fucking door. new students who now have facebook before moving into residence, what do they do? create events, and then post pictures, and then say it's not fair when they get fined or put on probation...the mafia doesn't post pics of them doing a hit... take the hint.

    in this case, meeting up as a group to do the assignment would technicazlly be cheating. but unless everyone writes the exact same answers or it's extremely similar, they won't get caught. yes, it's cheating, but the prof likely expects students to meet up and do it together, otherwise he'd make it an in-class kinda thing. but the guy was dumb and put it on facebook. don't want people to know what you're doing? don't make it public information.
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    Mar 19, 2008 6:38 PM GMT
    "I believe that, ahm, two ...ah hi hi... that two brains are better than one half. I thank you."
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    Mar 19, 2008 6:44 PM GMT
    What is the deal with American universities and nannying the students, seriously they treat them like they are 5 years old

    It is in no way cheating because a university professor isn't allowed to specify that an assignment must be done independently unless in an exam situation.

    The general consciousness among most university students and professors is that if they copy the answers straight from another student they will fail the final examination and the course through there own fault

    I have a bitch of a professor (with a poor opinion of wikipedia) that set an assignment using a specif computer learning program and after she witnessed them using wikipedia marked them down on A grade answers out of her own prejudice

    similar has happened when other professors have found students reference cliffs or instant notes in exam answers regardless of wither they read the text or not the answer is A grade and must be awarded

    Both were appealed to b re-marked and awarded there accurate grades




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    Mar 19, 2008 6:48 PM GMT
    I stick by my motto: if you dont want to get caught, dont post it on the internet!
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    Mar 19, 2008 6:57 PM GMT
    as a former college professor i side with the professor - if the students were told specifically to work independently then getting any form of help (let alone documentable help online) constitutes an infraction of the assignment.

    if the professor was specific then that's all that matters. professors are in charge of their classrooms. i left education over this very issue: students yelling at me when they didn't get the grades they wanted, even though they were given highly detailed rubrics, and then getting no support from department administrators. instructors should not be second guessed by people in these circumstances, because students are ALWAYS trying to get something over on them.

    it isn't the professor who has to defend the reason for his/her methods, it's the students who have the burden of proof that they're abiding by them.

    bottom line: they cheated.

    amt, attitudes like yours contribute to the dumbing down of american education. if students didn't act 5 years old, they wouldn't be treated like 5-year-olds.
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    Mar 19, 2008 7:07 PM GMT
    As a former educator, you cannot expect that any work not done in the classroom is the students alone. This is true for middle school students. This is true for college students. The professor is naive if he thinks he can dictate how his students do their homework.

    That said, the student is mighty dumb for making this cheating public.
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    Mar 19, 2008 7:09 PM GMT
    that be y i gradated an hav a gud payn job as a clerk at walmart an anuther one doing overnit securuty! i dont no ne american history an i dont care. its not important. i dont care about the rest of the world to. we shud just go bomb them an take the oil for us cuz we ned it an it dont matter ne way. they gots camels an we gots cars. we deserv it cuz we gots cars. why shud they deserv it when they gots camels to ride?



    ugg. do you realize how difficult it is to write INcorrectly?
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    Mar 19, 2008 7:15 PM GMT
    AMT87 said
    It is in no way cheating because a university professor isn't allowed to specify that an assignment must be done independently unless in an exam situation.


    Since when? At my college, if a professor tells you that the assignment is to be done independently, then you do it independently because that's your duty as an honorable student who's committed to improving his mind and talents. None of this "I don't like this so I'm going to ignore it" attitude.

    The professor was absolutely justified in specifying that the assignment be done independently if he wanted it done that way, and without a doubt that student deserves to have been punished in the way he was. Bravo to the professor for enforcing his standards.

    Of course, I come from a college with a honor code in which its expected that students who commit their word to following the instructions of the professor will actually do so. Strange concept.
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    Mar 19, 2008 7:16 PM GMT
    zdrew78 said
    In all seriousity, though, that's a toughie. It would all depend on how hot the student in question was.


    I see now why they promoted you. Your sound judgement.
  • Squarejaw

    Posts: 1035

    Mar 19, 2008 7:36 PM GMT
    AMT, after reading your post I'm going to suggest that you might have benefited from a history of even stricter teachers.

    (Yes, bitchy. But true.)
  • Squarejaw

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    Mar 19, 2008 7:40 PM GMT
    This is a bit off-topic, but when I was on leave from grad school and teaching at San Francisco State, a student came to me and begged me for D-minus rather than a failing grade that would make him lose his academic scholarship and have to leave school.

    The thing is, he was close to my age (I was 25, he was about 21), 6' tall, kind of tough looking, and sporting a wrestler's body. And all I could think to myself was, "Don't ASK me for a better grade -- hold me down and MAKE me give it to you!"
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    Mar 19, 2008 7:40 PM GMT
    assignments and instructions aren't meant to be interpreted your own way. the prof tells you what they want you do it. i don't see people buying a desk, building it incorrectly even though they have instructions and then blaming Ikea. if you want your homework to have more free thinking do what i did and take a couple fine arts courses. there you're expected to talk about what you're doing.
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    Mar 19, 2008 7:44 PM GMT
    jprichva said[quote][cite]zdrew78 said[/cite]
    In all seriousity, though, that's a toughie. It would all depend on how hot the student in question was.


    I see now why they promoted you. Your sound judgement.[/quote]

    Oof. If you really want me to think about it, let me drag out my old college prof hat.

    I guess I kind of see it as a 'shame on me, shame on you' situation. As an instructor, I would have been a little disappointed that the students, while technically not cheating - took the easy route to finish the assignment. I might have been a little more specific in my instructions the next time around, if I really didn't want any collaborative learning whatsoever.

    However, I never was of the opinion that students were meant to be coddled...and I never coddled them. The whole point of an assignment was to learn the information. If, come test time, they failed to have mastered the knowledge, well, it sucked to be them. If, on the other hand, the collaborative learning resulted in genuine learning, the more the better.

    As an aside, though, I would never have forbidden the students to work together. For one, one of the first things we learn in education these days is that people have different ways of learning information. And for two, if they really are just looking for an easy way out of the assignment...pfft...it's not my tuition money they're blowing, it's Mommy and Daddy's.
  • Squarejaw

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    Mar 19, 2008 7:56 PM GMT
    Many universities specify in their honor codes that a professor has a responsibility not to create situations that tempt students to cheat.

    You could argue that this professor abrogated that responsibility.
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    Mar 19, 2008 8:10 PM GMT
    are you a lawyer? that's a very sinister way to look at this.

    i personally never told my students to not collaborate, because (as has been mentioned) people learn in different ways. some people like to work together, some prefer not. i find the best learning comes from conversation amongst the students themselves. i'd give them as little overt guidance as possible so that they could enjoy more the discovery of the answers i wanted them to come to - and it was even better when they found a better method or response than the one i envisioned. i learned from my students. i adapted. but i didn't allow cheating and i didn't back off my standards.

    now i'm a stripper. how's that for being rewarded for sticking to one's guns? oh well, i love what i do, so i guess i'm better off since education drove me to medication.
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    Mar 19, 2008 8:25 PM GMT
    Wither the students did it independently or not is intangible ie it cant be measured unless it is in an exam situation and evidence of a student aiding another is witnessed, recored and confirmed.

    The fundamentals of a standardized grading process in which all students are to considered of equal standards require that all students be measured in the same way and an intangible attribute connot be included in an assesment.

    The only outcome of this is going to be that in future the students will ensure to set up their face book study group amonomously
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    Mar 19, 2008 8:34 PM GMT
    jesus FUCKING christ... i can remember so vividly why i finally gave up on students after reading that last post... if they put HALF the effort into doing their work that they put into figuring out how to get out of doing their work this wouldn't even be an issue.

    perhaps they should first set up a tutoring session for writing skills?

    and students actually have the audacity to be offended when someone asks them WHETHER (hint, hint) they've written or copy/pasted their work?

    icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Mar 19, 2008 8:47 PM GMT
    AMT87 said
    The fundamentals of a standardized grading process


    That's cute; you think any grading process is standardized.

    Is college, to you, really about a "standard process," numerals and decimals in essence? Isn't there more to it, like an intellectual pursuit that comes from the interplay of student/professor relationships? And isn't violating the directives of your professor a violation of that learning relationship?

    You know, it may just be that the professor had a reason for specifying that an assignment be done without collaboration. There are certain assignments from which an individual will learn most by his or her own effort. My political economy methods class was one of this, in which searching for the resources, with the help and instruction that the professor had given, actually proved better for the long term when done alone so that you could understand how to find the answers in the future in a similar situation.

    Why is it that students always seem to think that they know more about an assignment and the rules/teaching philosophies than the professors who have given them their work? This legalistic excuse is nothing more than an attempt to weasel out of your intellectual responsibility to yourself and your professors.
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    Mar 19, 2008 8:56 PM GMT
    Yeah a basic writing skill course might teach you to capitalize the first person singular, the first word of a sentence and not begin one with "and"



    University's have a very clear plagiarism policy regarding referencing sources and total unreferenced material permissible.
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    Mar 19, 2008 9:04 PM GMT
    If you ask me, the student deserved an "F" for being so effing dumb and setting up a study group that could be accessed by the professor.
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    Mar 19, 2008 9:09 PM GMT
    let's not use typos to attack someone's credibility, we've all seen what that leads to.

    this guy is in engineering. if he can't learn the stuff and do the assignments i'm worried. relying on others answer, BEFORE handing in the assignment shows that you don't care enough to learn what others can just tell you. sharing answers and learning from your mistakes is another issue all together. the prof is trying to see how much effort the students have put in to learning what it is he's trying to teach, not hand out grades.


    alot of my profs in the past have had 2 grading schemes. the first one being a combination of assignments and midterms and exams. the second one being, "if your your mark on the final exam alone is above the mark of the cumulative, then you get the mark of the final exam". this works for some people. and some people literally don't do any work but learn the stuff. but again, if the prof doesn't give you that option, you're shit out of luck and can put the beer down and do the work assigned. prof aren't here to screw us over (not most of them at least). why should they care about someone who doesn't respect them enough to follow their guidelines?
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    Mar 19, 2008 9:37 PM GMT
    WHETHER or not i capitalize will have little to do with the fact that your grammar will continue to WITHER without correction.

    turn google off and pick up a dictionary.
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    Mar 19, 2008 10:03 PM GMT
    Well, I'm a lecturer at university when I'm not being a PhD student, and I'm very tough on cheating.

    I don't think this is cheating at all, and a totally unreasonable outcome for the student.

    If I set an individual assignment then I expect one name on the cover and every word that has not been referenced to be written by the person whose name was on the cover.

    Discussing an assignment is such unbelievably good practice and extraordinarily proactive. University's meant to be warming us up for the workplace. I can't think of many jobs where discussion before a project isn't a great idea.