Dan Choi Hospitalized

  • metta

    Posts: 39089

    Dec 15, 2010 1:41 AM GMT
    Dan Choi Hospitalized

    http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/18211/dan-choi-hospitalized-a-discussion-about-our-communitys-multifaceted-sacrifices



    You can sign his get well card here:

    http://www.groupcard.com/c/il12LopIv2f
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    Dec 15, 2010 5:20 AM GMT
    Thanks for posting this. It takes considerable courage for him to speak so candidly.
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    Dec 15, 2010 5:37 AM GMT
    I can only imagine the burdens he has gone through.
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    Dec 15, 2010 10:54 AM GMT
    Being a military vet myself, I'm pushing hard for the repeal of DADT, so don't take this the wrong way but Dan Choi is neither a hero nor a role model. He decided to be the pariah. He has brought this upon himself. Plain and simple.

    Soldiers like Victor Fehrenbach are the true heroes.

    http://www.gazette.com/articles/officer-62787-false-11px.html

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    Dec 15, 2010 11:17 AM GMT
    RiverRising saidBeing a military vet myself, I'm pushing hard for the repeal of DADT, so don't take this the wrong way but Dan Choi is neither a hero nor a role model. He decided to be the pariah. He has brought this upon himself. Plain and simple.

    Soldiers like Victor Fehrenbach are the true heroes.

    http://www.gazette.com/articles/officer-62787-false-11px.html

    Picture+5.png


    Ehm, how is he the pariah, and how is his case different from Victor's.. they seem to be in the same boat to me
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    Dec 15, 2010 11:54 AM GMT
    Because Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.
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    Dec 15, 2010 12:07 PM GMT
    RiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.


    So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?
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    Dec 15, 2010 12:13 PM GMT
    The Closet - Land of the Free, Home of the Brave


    HAHAHAHAHA!
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    Dec 15, 2010 12:25 PM GMT
    lissenup said
    RiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.


    So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?


    I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.
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    Dec 15, 2010 1:21 PM GMT
    semaj562 said
    lissenup said
    RiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.


    So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?


    I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.

    Very well said.
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    Dec 15, 2010 1:29 PM GMT
    Both of these men are heroes. Each in their own way.

    While certainly Dan Choi stood to gain from his actions, there is no doubt in my mind that he was also working for the greater good of the community.

    To say that someone is not a hero because they may stand to gain from their efforts, diminishes the lives of many: Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.

    I am not saying Dan Choi is of the same caliber of these gentlemen, simply that his goals were no less honorable.

    He willingly embarked upon a path that made him a target in order to change unjust laws. He went through a great deal of struggle in order to live up to the military standard of honesty and integrity.

    While Victor Fehrenbach and other soldiers may also stand to benefit from being in the armed services, the risks they take also far out weigh the rewards. These are brave individuals whose accomplishments should be respected. However, all of them stand to gain from their service.

    To diminish the accomplishments of any of these individual simply because we do not agree upon the path taken or the motivation for their cause only shows our own lack of understanding of true heroism.


    semaj562 said
    lissenup said
    RiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.


    So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?


    I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.
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    Dec 16, 2010 2:31 AM GMT
    creyente saidBoth of these men are heroes. Each in their own way.

    While certainly Dan Choi stood to gain from his actions, there is no doubt in my mind that he was also working for the greater good of the community.

    To say that someone is not a hero because they may stand to gain from their efforts, diminishes the lives of many: Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.

    I am not saying Dan Choi is of the same caliber of these gentlemen, simply that his goals were no less honorable.

    He willingly embarked upon a path that made him a target in order to change unjust laws. He went through a great deal of struggle in order to live up to the military standard of honesty and integrity.

    While Victor Fehrenbach and other soldiers may also stand to benefit from being in the armed services, the risks they take also far out weigh the rewards. These are brave individuals whose accomplishments should be respected. However, all of them stand to gain from their service.

    To diminish the accomplishments of any of these individual simply because we do not agree upon the path taken or the motivation for their cause only shows our own lack of understanding of true heroism.


    semaj562 said
    lissenup said
    RiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.


    So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?


    I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.


    That's a lovely philosophy. Really.

    However, Dan outed himself during a time of war. That's not what I would call heroic. Pussyfooted, perhaps, but heroic? When so many other gays are in the Middle East giving their lives, Dan Choi conveniently comes out and gets stuck here in the states. Now that's faaaaantastic heroism. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • TexanNC

    Posts: 39

    Dec 16, 2010 2:37 AM GMT
    Sad. I think the whole point of why these two guys deserve respect has been missed. Let's stop the petty bickering and focus on DADT.
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    Dec 16, 2010 3:26 AM GMT
    RiverRising said However, Dan outed himself during a time of war. That's not what I would call heroic. Pussyfooted, perhaps, but heroic? When so many other gays are in the Middle East giving their lives, Dan Choi conveniently comes out and gets stuck here in the states. Now that's faaaaantastic heroism. icon_rolleyes.gif


    I had to look this up...and what I found is that Dan served in combat in the Iraq war from 2006-2007. In June 2008, Choi transferred from active duty Army to the New York National Guard. He came out on the Rachel Maddow show in 2009 and received a discharge letter following his appearance. On June 30, 2009, a panel of New York National Guard officers recommended that Choi be discharged from the military. As of February 2010, Choi was serving again in his National Guard reserve until the discharge was finalized on June 29, 2010.

    So...he was no longer fighting in the war when he came out on television and he fought to stay in the National Guard reserve and stayed until he could no longer be there.

    Also, since he came out, 38 West Point alumni came out and formed Knights Out, an alumni organization that supports the rights of LGBT soldiers to serve openly.

    Also, according to the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, Choi is one of 59 gay Arabic linguists, along with nine gay Farsi linguists, who were discharged from the U.S. military from 2004 through 2009. That's 68 linguists who could really help the U.S. - and could save lives - but were forced out because they were gay.
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    Dec 16, 2010 3:40 AM GMT
    RiverRising said
    creyente saidBoth of these men are heroes. Each in their own way.

    While certainly Dan Choi stood to gain from his actions, there is no doubt in my mind that he was also working for the greater good of the community.

    To say that someone is not a hero because they may stand to gain from their efforts, diminishes the lives of many: Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.

    I am not saying Dan Choi is of the same caliber of these gentlemen, simply that his goals were no less honorable.

    He willingly embarked upon a path that made him a target in order to change unjust laws. He went through a great deal of struggle in order to live up to the military standard of honesty and integrity.

    While Victor Fehrenbach and other soldiers may also stand to benefit from being in the armed services, the risks they take also far out weigh the rewards. These are brave individuals whose accomplishments should be respected. However, all of them stand to gain from their service.

    To diminish the accomplishments of any of these individual simply because we do not agree upon the path taken or the motivation for their cause only shows our own lack of understanding of true heroism.


    semaj562 said
    lissenup said
    RiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.


    So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?


    I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.


    That's a lovely philosophy. Really.

    However, Dan outed himself during a time of war. That's not what I would call heroic. Pussyfooted, perhaps, but heroic? When so many other gays are in the Middle East giving their lives, Dan Choi conveniently comes out and gets stuck here in the states. Now that's faaaaantastic heroism. icon_rolleyes.gif


    Dan Choi is far more worthy of being called a hero than anyone who sits at their computer criticizing and undercutting the brave sacrifices of any gay solider. So he came out instead of being outed- big deal. Since then he's done great things to keep DADT in the media and the minds of the American people. Shame on anyone who would call chaining oneself to the White House a "pussyfooted" move. We all owe this man our respect and gratitude, so keep your mouth shut if all you have to say are insults and demeaning comments.
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    Dec 16, 2010 10:14 AM GMT
    BlueBlur said
    RiverRising said
    creyente saidBoth of these men are heroes. Each in their own way.

    While certainly Dan Choi stood to gain from his actions, there is no doubt in my mind that he was also working for the greater good of the community.

    To say that someone is not a hero because they may stand to gain from their efforts, diminishes the lives of many: Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.

    I am not saying Dan Choi is of the same caliber of these gentlemen, simply that his goals were no less honorable.

    He willingly embarked upon a path that made him a target in order to change unjust laws. He went through a great deal of struggle in order to live up to the military standard of honesty and integrity.

    While Victor Fehrenbach and other soldiers may also stand to benefit from being in the armed services, the risks they take also far out weigh the rewards. These are brave individuals whose accomplishments should be respected. However, all of them stand to gain from their service.

    To diminish the accomplishments of any of these individual simply because we do not agree upon the path taken or the motivation for their cause only shows our own lack of understanding of true heroism.


    semaj562 said
    lissenup said
    RiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.


    So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?


    I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.


    That's a lovely philosophy. Really.

    However, Dan outed himself during a time of war. That's not what I would call heroic. Pussyfooted, perhaps, but heroic? When so many other gays are in the Middle East giving their lives, Dan Choi conveniently comes out and gets stuck here in the states. Now that's faaaaantastic heroism. icon_rolleyes.gif


    Dan Choi is far more worthy of being called a hero than anyone who sits at their computer criticizing and undercutting the brave sacrifices of any gay solider. So he came out instead of being outed- big deal. Since then he's done great things to keep DADT in the media and the minds of the American people. Shame on anyone who would call chaining oneself to the White House a "pussyfooted" move. We all owe this man our respect and gratitude, so keep your mouth shut if all you have to say are insults and demeaning comments.


    If you want to criticize anybody, why don't you join a branch of the armed forces. Then I'll take what you have to say to heart.

    Shame on you for thinking that chaining yourself to the White House is worthy of anything other than scrutiny.

    You can give this man all the respect you feel he deserves. Many of us gay military men and women don't feel that way. I hate to speak for others since I realize it holds no water, but this is a fact. In fact, I'd argue that he has done more harm than good for active gay military service men/women.

    Bravery and sacrifice does not include outing yourself during a time of war. Bravery and sacrifice involves keeping your mouth shut and putting your country before your own selfish interests. Come out after the war has ended, or after the repeal of DADT, not before.

    If you don't understand that ... piss on you.

    In response to lissenup's post, more than 400,000 National Guard troops have served in Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a congressional report.

    National Guard troops do serve in the Middle East. Choi wasn't retired, he was still active.

    And Choi had nothing to do with the formation of Knights Out. It was the merger of USNA Out and SAGALA that brought about Knights Out. Choi served on the board for a brief period (he's no longer on the board), but his "heroic" actions had nothing to do with the organization's formation,
  • mynyun

    Posts: 1346

    Dec 16, 2010 10:36 AM GMT
    You know I can't understand you guys. For a community who complains about others judging us and a community who complains about the usage of "Labels" we are certainly the FIRST to judge Choi and label him a Non hero. Whether he was outed or outed himself he served in the military and he was kicked out for being gay. LIKE US. And do we embrace him.?? NO.!! He is now labeled a "Pariah".
    I would say SHAME ON YOU but I'd be wasting my words. icon_sad.gif
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    Dec 16, 2010 11:28 AM GMT
    Dan Choi is more interested in serving his ego than he is in serving his fellow man and, more importantly, his fellow soldiers.

    When you join the military, you join knowing full well the rules under which you are obligated to comply. DADT is explained in great detail prior to signing on the dotted line and raising your right hand. Why is that so hard to understand?

    The military is not the private sector. Even men and women coming to terms with their sexuality after they've joined the service know the rules. Being outed while serving, especially during a time of war is one thing, but outing yourself during a time of war is an act of cowardice.

    It is obvious that none of what I'm writing will sink in with many of you, especially those who haven't served, but know this: Dan Choi may be a hero to some, but for the majority of those whose opinions matter (e.g. military and govt. personnel working to overturn DADT), he's viewed as a psychological mess and an impediment when it comes to repealing DADT.

    Honor.
  • BeingThePhoen...

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    Dec 16, 2010 11:48 AM GMT
    RiverRising saidDan Choi is more interested in serving his ego than he is in serving his fellow man and, more importantly, his fellow soldiers.

    When you join the military, you join knowing full well the rules under which you are obligated to comply. DADT is explained in great detail prior to signing on the dotted line and raising your right hand. Why is that so hard to understand?

    The military is not the private sector. Even men and women coming to terms with their sexuality after they've joined the service know the rules. Being outed while serving, especially during a time of war is one thing, but outing yourself during a time of war is an act of cowardice.

    It is obvious that none of what I'm writing will sink in with many of you, especially those who haven't served, but know this: Dan Choi may be a hero to some, but for the majority of those whose opinions matter (e.g. military and govt. personnel working to overturn DADT), he's viewed as a psychological mess and an impediment when it comes to repealing DADT.

    Honor.

    Sometimes, the bravest thing you can do is to stand up and be counted, when all around you are unwilling or unable to do the same. IMO, he is not only standing up for himself, but he stands also for the those who can't be counted themselves. Just a thought.

    And, war time or not....that hasn't kept the military from tossing gays out on their ears.
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    Dec 16, 2010 12:03 PM GMT
    What you are conveniently forgetting is that he did not ask to be pulled out of combat. It is homophobia that is keeping him from doing his job. Dan fought to be allowed to continue to serve.

    During a time of war it is ridiculous to refuse anyone who is willing and able to serve from serving regardless of politics.

    Even our founding fathers recognized this as they allowed blacks to serve, going against the military policy that was in place during the civil war.

    It is bigotry that is keeping people like Dan Choi out of the military at this time, not cowardice.



    RiverRising said
    creyente saidBoth of these men are heroes. Each in their own way.

    While certainly Dan Choi stood to gain from his actions, there is no doubt in my mind that he was also working for the greater good of the community.

    To say that someone is not a hero because they may stand to gain from their efforts, diminishes the lives of many: Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.

    I am not saying Dan Choi is of the same caliber of these gentlemen, simply that his goals were no less honorable.

    He willingly embarked upon a path that made him a target in order to change unjust laws. He went through a great deal of struggle in order to live up to the military standard of honesty and integrity.

    While Victor Fehrenbach and other soldiers may also stand to benefit from being in the armed services, the risks they take also far out weigh the rewards. These are brave individuals whose accomplishments should be respected. However, all of them stand to gain from their service.

    To diminish the accomplishments of any of these individual simply because we do not agree upon the path taken or the motivation for their cause only shows our own lack of understanding of true heroism.


    semaj562 said
    lissenup said
    RiverRising saidBecause Dan outed himself and Victor was outed. There is a significant difference between the two.


    So you are saying that Dan Choi is a pariah because he chose to come out instead of being outed? If he had remained in the closet and been outed he would be a hero?


    I think what he meant is that Dan Choi chose to come out for political reasons, whereas Victor was just trying to do his job with no choice in the matter. I can agree in some way. A hero is someone who puts others' needs in front of their own. However, while Choi chose to come out for personal gain, you can also look at it that he did so, thinking that it may help others like himself.


    That's a lovely philosophy. Really.

    However, Dan outed himself during a time of war. That's not what I would call heroic. Pussyfooted, perhaps, but heroic? When so many other gays are in the Middle East giving their lives, Dan Choi conveniently comes out and gets stuck here in the states. Now that's faaaaantastic heroism. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Dec 16, 2010 12:26 PM GMT
    Why is it so hard for you to understand that you cannot create unjust laws and expect people to abide by them? As a branch of our government it is especially incumbent upon the military to be fair to all citizens.

    What Dan did is part of a strategy of civil disobedience that has been very effective in causing change for various civil rights efforts over the years.

    His actions have made it plainly obvious to many Americans how ridiculous it is to prevent a willing soldier from fighting during a time of war.

    I have many family members and friends in the armed services, and I can assure you they do not see Dan in the same light as you. They have actually signed petitions for me in support of his efforts.

    If he is seen as a mess it is only by those who wish to continue to the status quo.

    I think you should think twice before calling the people who could not change these unjust laws during times of peace, "the people whose opinions matter". These are in fact the same people who are preventing any change from happening.


    RiverRising saidDan Choi is more interested in serving his ego than he is in serving his fellow man and, more importantly, his fellow soldiers.

    When you join the military, you join knowing full well the rules under which you are obligated to comply. DADT is explained in great detail prior to signing on the dotted line and raising your right hand. Why is that so hard to understand?

    The military is not the private sector. Even men and women coming to terms with their sexuality after they've joined the service know the rules. Being outed while serving, especially during a time of war is one thing, but outing yourself during a time of war is an act of cowardice.

    It is obvious that none of what I'm writing will sink in with many of you, especially those who haven't served, but know this: Dan Choi may be a hero to some, but for the majority of those whose opinions matter (e.g. military and govt. personnel working to overturn DADT), he's viewed as a psychological mess and an impediment when it comes to repealing DADT.

    Honor.
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    Dec 16, 2010 12:28 PM GMT
    I am not conveniently forgetting anything. What I am saying is that it was terribly convenient for Dan Choi to out himself during a time of war.

    In other words, he pulled himself out of combat (or any chance of ever having to return to the Middle East) when he outed himself. Why do this when the country needs you the most? What purpose does it serve, exactly? Choi didn't realize that his expertise as a linguist was needed? He was part of an elite group of service members capable of keeping his fellow soldiers and the American people safe. His abilities as an Arabic linguist were and are still very much in high demand. Now the country is facing one less linguist, so I'd argue that Choi's actions put us all at risk. He put himself before his fellow soliders and the American people.

    This is not bravery. This is not honorable. This is not American.

    Gentlemen, remember that we're not being drafted. Today's U.S. soldiers volunteer for this. Choi joined the military knowing the rules.
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    Dec 16, 2010 12:30 PM GMT
    Again... he did not pull himself out.. the military is preventing him. During times of war the military can over ride bad policy. This is why blacks were allowed to serve during the civil war.

    It is a very important distinction.

    RiverRising saidI am not conveniently forgetting anything. What I am saying is that it was terribly convenient for Dan Choi to out himself during a time of war.

    In other words, he pulled himself out of combat (or any chance of ever having to return to the Middle East) when he outed himself. Why do this when the country needs you the most? What purpose does it serve, exactly? Choi didn't realize that his expertise as a linguist was needed? He was part of an elite group of service members capable of keeping his fellow soldiers and the American people safe. His abilities as an Arabic linguist were and are still very much in high demand. Now the country is facing one less linguist, so I'd argue that Choi's actions put us all at risk. He put himself before his fellow soliders and the American people.

    This is not bravery. This is not honorable. This is not American.

    Gentlemen, remember that we're not being drafted. Today's U.S. soldiers volunteer for this.
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    Dec 16, 2010 12:32 PM GMT
    While these rule are truly unjust, they were in effect prior to Choi's participation in the system.

    Choi knew the rules. He chose not to abide by them, so, yeah, he pulled himself out.

    * Edit

    And I have signed similar petitions. I have even gone so far as to send letters to the White House and Pentagon. I have contacted my state representatives and am an active participant in various networks (both online and offline) to work towards a repeal of DADT. While I am not in favor of this bigotry, I do understand the rules of the game.
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    Dec 16, 2010 12:48 PM GMT
    I am sure you have signed petitions. I am also sure you would like to see change as well.

    However, you are unable to see the positive contributions of yet another man who is also seeking to empower change in a way that is in accordance with his own belief system.

    You are trying to belittle another person who is actually putting himself out there, simply because you would like it done differently. When in fact the route you would follow has been done unsuccessfully for years.

    I don't think it is brave at all to hide in the military and pretend to be something you are not while accepting the paycheck and benefits for this. I don't think it is honorable to lie to the government in order to maintain your position.

    However, I am able to appreciate the very positive contributions of those who continue to serve. These people do not hold my views, but they are heroes none the less to me for what they do. They deserve my respect for the good they do for this country, not my ire for the damage they do to the cause.


    RiverRising saidWhile these rule are truly unjust, they were in effect prior to Choi's participation in the system.

    Choi knew the rules. He chose not to abide by them, so, yeah, he pulled himself out.

    * Edit

    And I have signed similar petitions. I have even gone so far as to send letters to the White House and Pentagon. I have contacted my state representatives and am an active participant in various networks (both online and offline) to work towards a repeal of DADT. While I am not in favor of this bigotry, I do understand the rules of the game.