Yalla, Peace!

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    Dec 19, 2010 6:31 PM GMT
    Ray Hanania is a Palestinian-American who in his own words says:
    I am running for President of Palestine in the next election, if there is one.

    Here is his "campaign platform" - along with my comments:
    http://www.yallapeace.com/platform.htm

    H1. I support two-states, one Israel and one Palestine. As far as I am concerned, I can recognize Israel's "Jewish" character and Israelis should recognize Palestine's "non-Jewish" character.

    Why not recognize Arab Palestine's "Palestinian Arab character"? I'm not sure how its "'non-Jewish' character" distinguishes it from [Trans-] Jordan, but it's your state, you can decide that for yourselves.


    H2. I oppose violence of any kind from and by anyone. I reject Hamas' participation in any Palestinian government without first agreeing to surrender all arms and to accept two-states as a "final" peace agreement. But I also reject allowing Israeli settlers to carry any weapons and believe Israelis must impose the same restrictions on them.

    I agree in principle, but the reality is that 99% of the time it is the Jewish villagers who are being attacked by Arab terrorists. It's a bit like saying that both the lion and the sheep should be declawed. As we've discussed in other topics, 10x as many "settlers" have been murdered by Arab terrorists as Arabs have been killed by "settlers" - and most of the latter were instances of self-defense during terrorist attacks.


    H3. I can support some settlements remaining in Israeli control - given the reality of 42 years of time passing -- in a dunum-for-dunum land exchange. If Ariel is 500 dunums with a lifeline from Israel, then Israel gives Palestine 500 dunums in exchange.

    I agree in principle, but while the Jewish residents of Ariel want to remain/become part of Israel, the Arab residents of Um el Fahm (an Arab village just on the Israeli side of the 1949 ceasefire line) do NOT want to become part of Arab Palestine. Should they be forced to in order to achieve parity in a land swap?


    H4. Jerusalem should be a shared city and Palestinians should have an official presence in East Jerusalem. The Old City should be shared by both permitting open access to the city to all with a joint Palestinian-Israeli police presence. Currently Israel maintains a sharing of the Temple Mount or Haram al-Ash Sharif and that relationship can be worked out better under the direction of two governments in peace.

    Again I agree in principle, but I'm not sure how it would work in practice. How do you have an "open city" along the US-Mexican border without it become a potential vector for smuggling, including drugs, people and, in our case, bombs? The example of the Temple Mount / Haram al-Ash Sharif works because of a combination of benevolent Israeli sovereignty with management delegated to the Muslim Waqf (and similar arrangements for the Christian holy places).


    H5. Palestinian refugees would give up their demand to return to pre-1948 homes and lands lost during the conflict with Israel. Instead, some could apply for family reunification through Israel and the remainder would be compensated through a fund created and maintained by the United States, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia and the United Nations.

    H6. I also think Israelis should find it in their hearts to show compassion and offer their apologies to Palestinians for the conflict. [See below a provision for both sides to apologize to each other -- it's not just one-sided.]

    H7. I support creation of a similar fund to compensate those Jews from Arab lands who lost their homes and lands, too, when they fled.

    This (H5) means that unlike some other pretenders, Hanania truly supports the "two-state" solution, one Jewish, the other Arab - rather than paying lip-service to the terminology while attempting to manipulate it so that both states are Arab.

    I'll quibble with H6. While it is true that the Palestinian Arabs have suffered due to the conflict, let's not ignore that Israelis have also suffered and that it was the Arab parties who rejected peace and compromise and turned to war in the first place. So if we're all kissing and making up, you can return the favor and offer your apologies, too. [Looks like Ray noticed this criticim and added the parenthetical comment above, adding H17 below. But we don't need both a one-sided H6 and a balanced H17 so this still needs some work.]


    H8. I think the Wall should be torn down, or relocated to the new borders. I have no problem separating the two nations for a short duration to help rebuild confidence between our two people.

    The barrier (95% fence, only "wall" in urban areas where Arab terrorists were firing into Jewish communities) serves a purpose (saving lives on both sides by limiting altercations). When there is peace and quiet, it will have outlived its usefulness.


    H9. All political parties, Palestinian and Israelis, should eliminate languages denying each other's existence, and all maps should be reprinted so that Israeli maps finally show Palestine and Palestinian maps finally show Israel.

    Most Israeli maps already show the PA territories (there isn't yet an Arab Palestine per se to show) and parties such as Rabbi Kahane's Kach (which managed 1 out of 120 seats in the Israeli parliament) were deemed hate parties and outlawed nearly 20 years ago. We'll have a bit more work to do... but the bigger challenge on this point is at your end. No PA maps show Israel (which has existed for more than 60 years) and both the Palestine National Covenant and the Hamas Covenant explicitly call for Israel's destruction.


    H10. A subway system should be built linking the West Bank portion of the Palestine state to the Gaza Strip portion of the Palestine State. Palestine should be permitted to build a seaport access to strengthen its' industry, and an airport to permit flights too and from the Arab and Israeli world.

    I think I prefer something above-ground, maybe a monorail (hey, maybe it should connect to Detroit's "People Mover" and have that extended beyond downtown, like say to Dearborn... (: Hey, I'd ride that if it were possible!). While Gaza will give you access to the Mediterranean, you can ship other exports from Eilat (with access to the Indian Ocean).


    H11. I would urge the Arab World to renew their offer to normalize relations with Israel if Israel agrees to support the creation of a Palestinian State.

    H12. And I would ask both countries to establish embassies in each other's country to address other problems.

    Great, but what are we going to do about Iran & Hizbullah?


    H13. While non-Jewish Palestinians would continue to live in Israel as citizens, Jews who wish to live in settlements surrendered by Israel could become Palestinian citizens and they should be recognized and treated equally.

    Agreed in principle, but that's not possible on day 1. There may need to be some transitory period to facilitate the safety of Jewish villagers, treated equally, in Arab Palestine (you're also going to have to remove Sharia law as the basis of the legal system from the PA Constitution).


    H14. If Jews want to live in Hebron, they should be allowed to live in Hebron and should be protected, just as non-Jews. In fact, for every Jewish individual seeking to live in Palestine, a Palestinian should be permitted to live in Israel. In fact, major Palestinian populations in Israel could be annexed into Palestine (like settlements).

    This was already covered in H3 - and let's not forget that there already are about 1 million Palestinian Arabs living in Israel.

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    Dec 19, 2010 6:32 PM GMT
    H15. Another concept is to have non-Jews living in Israel continue to live there but only vote in Palestinian elections, while Jews living in Palestine would only vote in Israeli elections. A special citizenship protection committee could be created to explore how to protect the rights of minorities in each state.

    This is very interesting on a philosophical level, because it changes the definition of a state. In a way we would now have "virtual" states that overlap. The pitfall is that it may breed inequality (on both sides). And then there's that whole American concept of "no taxation without representation". Let's brainstorm and see what we can come up with.

    Or maybe you just want (for your campaign) those 1 million votes by the more moderate Israeli Arabs. (:


    H16. Israel and Palestine should create joint-governing and security agencies working with the United States to monitor the peace, and establish an agency to pursue criminal acts of violence.

    And more: We have over-flight issues and water problems, etc. Let's build that desalination plant in Gaza that Arafat rejected rather than manufacture scarcity so we can fight over something. Maybe it can pipe water to the "West Bank", or maybe it's more economical to pipe it in from Israel.

    Re "West Bank": can you please come up with a new name for that? It's no longer the "West Bank of Trans/Jordan", though I understand if you don't want to call it Judea & Samaria. Palestina Prima was already done. How do you say "the Highlands" in Arabic?


    H17. Both Israel and Palestine apologize to each other and recognize the hardships and pain they each have caused to each other in this conflict.

    When can we start?
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    Dec 19, 2010 6:33 PM GMT
    Thoughts?
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    Dec 22, 2010 1:24 AM GMT
    I'v never seen someone from the palestinian side with so open and realistic goals and principles.

    I agree with all of his points. though your comments seem pretty unnecessary mostly. I mean, after this will for peace, who needs to whine about what happened back then? They can do it too, but he didn't. This seems pretty fair, just because it doesn't represent one side's needs.

    Second, Hizbullah has nothing to do with Palestine, niether Iran.

    And, I'm sure the Shari'a won't be the base for laws there. it's not even in the arab countries surrounding us (i.e Syria, Egypt).


    And thanx for this topic ! really gives some hope in these hard times..


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    Dec 24, 2010 4:47 PM GMT
    GHoSTic> Hizbullah has nothing to do with Palestine, niether Iran.

    Yes, I know, but if peace is achieved and there is a (mostly) secular Arab Palestine, Hizbullah and Iran will be their problem, too. Thus I pondered what WE will do about them.


    GHoSTic> I'v never seen someone from the palestinian side with so open and realistic goals and principles.

    I think I'd put Sari Nusseibeh in that camp, but he's in the territories and thus can't speak as freely as he used to.


    GHoSTic> And thanx for this topic ! really gives some hope in these hard times..

    As they say, "'tis the season" when people wish each other "peace on earth".
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    Dec 25, 2010 12:14 AM GMT
    I'd read this but really any campaign called " yalla peace" isnt going to work in the middle east.
    see how that rhymed, it's because it's true. Yalla peace really doesnt come of as that serious a statement and people there take polities seriously.

    Besides the main problem with anything to do with this conflict is people just plain dont realize it's complicated to each individual involved.

    He seems so idealistic.
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    Dec 27, 2010 2:56 PM GMT
    Thanks for your comments, Joe. I agree that "Yalla, Peace" isn't as blood curdling as some other slogans, but I fear that the war-mongers have a much easier time raising emotions.

    Nonetheless the word "yalla", as well as the Hebrew "Nu", are pretty strong and commonly understood as: "Well? What are you waiting for? Get off your ass and do (something about) it!"
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    Dec 27, 2010 7:59 PM GMT
    Isn't it odd that we haven't heard from any of the Israel demonizers here?

    Evidently they are too busy posting anti-Israel spam propaganda topics with yellow journalism subject lines.
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    Dec 31, 2010 7:44 PM GMT
    On Christmas Eve, ianct posted a topic purportedly about Christmas in Bethlehem but which was more of the usual Israel bashing, leading TigerTim to say:

    TigerTim> Perhaps Israelis and Palestinians would both equally care to embrace the spirit of the day, which is "goodwill to your fellow men" and "peace and reconciliation"?

    More anti-Israel spam propaganda followed leading him to note:

    TigerTim> ianct and sxydrkhair seem to have failed to embrace the spirit of the day

    Which evidently led ianct to pull a southbeach and delete the topic.
    They hate Israel more than they love Christmas.


    Tim's a smart and fair-minded guy, but I do wish to point out that his initial comment was a false equivalence. A week previously, in the "Christmas spirit", I had already posted this topic. Indeed, I have a history of doing so. Two years earlier, for the holiday season, I posted:

    In search of a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict: UNSCR 242, Oslo and Camp David/Taba
    (Or: I support the Clinton COMPROMISE parameters. Do you?!)

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/354843

    I thought I was heading toward middle ground, but turns out the anti-Israel spam propagandists were all categorically opposed to the Clinton (Taba) compromise - even against compromise per se.


    We're going on two weeks here and have heard from the resident Jewish Israeli (me) and Arab Israeli (GHoSTic) in support of the "Yalla, Peace" movement started by a Palestinian Arab-American.

    Over the last 12 days, 9 anti-Israel topics have been started - nearly 1 per day!
    Yet still not a word, not even a whisper, from the handful of Palestinian Arabs and anti-Israel/anti-Jewish spam propagandists?

    Are they silent because explicitly opposing this would expose them as the extremist haters they are?

    Do they oppose "Yalla Peace" because its aim is bona fide mutual coexistence rather than a "wolf in sheep's clothing" plan with the real agenda being the destruction of Israel?

    If not for Christmas, let's see if they can find something positive to say for the New Year.
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    Dec 31, 2010 8:54 PM GMT
    Well Looky here !!! The resident Zionist Ceaserea4 has spoken again to tell us all just how it is, also to bless us with his one sided comments and call out anyone from other topics, who dares bring up some of the wrongs the Zionists back in Israel commit against the Palestinians.

    Isn't it just so cool and so blessed with happy times, to have the spirit of the holidays, when your a Zionist "know it all" without any "still small voices' of conscience, to mar his glossing over taking peoples homes, killings, creating effectively a consentration camp for the Gazans and promote keeping on doing the same and covering up the wrongs.

    C4 your so damned errogant that you actually believe you and your ilk have, or should have the last word and it amounts to one truth. YOUR OBNXIOUS !!!! You Zionists cannot have your cake and eat it too !! Now, what exactly is your relationship to the Zionists ? Do you get paid for your Propaganda publishing here, by the topic, by paragraph or by the word ?

    This latest topic of yours is nothing but "more of the same" from you, and you might as well understand that as long as anyone of your Zionist, "its our way or the highway" ilk, has the power in peace talks, there never will be peace with Israel. You Zionists and your AIPAC infiltrators in US affairs are easy to see through.

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    Jan 05, 2011 12:06 AM GMT
    Don't feed the troll - just ignore him like everyone else does.
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    Jan 07, 2011 12:59 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair said5. Palestinian refugees would give up their demand to return to pre-1948 homes and lands lost during the conflict with Israel. - Agreed.


    Many Palestinians don't agree with that... Maybe Palestinians from the West Bank. It is easy for you to say that because your family is from the West Bank. I am a Palestinian from Haifa, Israel. My whole family wish they can return there. icon_cry.gif
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    Jan 07, 2011 4:06 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair> I couldn't read Caesarea4's posts, because I had him on my ignore list.

    Grow up already. I couldn't care less if I'm on your ignore list.
    But it's laughable how you make that claim every other week.
    Even at times shortly after posting in one of my threads.
    Is this your excuse for avoiding this thread for nearly 3 weeks?

    sxydrkhair> I remember reading this thread awhile ago before I put him on ignore.

    So why didn't you post in this thread then?


    sxydrkhair> If Israel want to play that game "land swap" then Palestinians should get Nazareth and other Arab villages in Israel.

    The problem is that Israeli Arabs want to remain Israeli citizens and don't want their villages swapped to Arab Palestine-to-be.


    How quickly they forget that this is a peace topic:

    sxydrkhair 1> we Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state, which we already did in Aug. 20 1993 Oslo Accords.

    sxydrkhair 2> Israel as a "Jewish state" may not last long.

    I fear we all know which sentiment is stated for cover and which represents his true feelings.
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    Jan 07, 2011 6:37 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidsxydrkhair> I couldn't read Caesarea4's posts, because I had him on my ignore list.

    Grow up already. I couldn't care less if I'm on your ignore list.
    But it's laughable how you make that claim every other week.
    Even at times shortly after posting in one of my threads.
    Is this your excuse for avoiding this thread for nearly 3 weeks?

    sxydrkhair> I remember reading this thread awhile ago before I put him on ignore.

    So why didn't you post in this thread then?


    sxydrkhair> If Israel want to play that game "land swap" then Palestinians should get Nazareth and other Arab villages in Israel.

    The problem is that Israeli Arabs want to remain Israeli citizens and don't want their villages swapped to Arab Palestine-to-be.


    How quickly they forget that this is a peace topic:

    sxydrkhair 1> we Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state, which we already did in Aug. 20 1993 Oslo Accords.

    sxydrkhair 2> Israel as a "Jewish state" may not last long.

    I fear we all know which sentiment is stated for cover and which represents his true feelings.



    Blah Blah Blah Ceaserea4, When are you going to answer my questions? how about this question. Why don't you got live in some ZIONIST settlement on the Westbank and tell those displaced Palestinians all your ZIONIST PROPAGANDA reasons for why it is your land and not theirs? Give that at try you dispicable ZIONIST SELF RIGHTEOUS FANATIC, then come back and tell us how well its working out for you !!!!
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    Jan 10, 2011 3:16 PM GMT
    From Ray Hanania's "Principles of Peace":
    We set aside the old paradigm of Israelis versus Palestinians and instead define our movement as moderates versus extremists.
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    Jan 11, 2011 6:02 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidFrom Ray Hanania's "Principles of Peace":
    We set aside the old paradigm of Israelis versus Palestinians and instead define our movement as moderates versus extremists.



    Your OBNOXIOUS and anything but a moderate, YOU QUITE APPARENTLY ARE A ZIONIST FANATIC, and as such no one wants to hear more of your damned PROPAGANDA
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    Jan 11, 2011 8:59 AM GMT
    I would like to interrupt this thread by saying the word: vagina.
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    Jan 20, 2011 4:43 PM GMT
    From Ray Hanania's "Principles of Peace"> We set aside the old paradigm of Israelis versus Palestinians and instead define our movement as moderates versus extremists.

    JakeBenson> I would like to interrupt this thread by saying the word: vagina.

    Are these extremist or moderate vaginas?
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    Jan 20, 2011 6:02 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidFrom Ray Hanania's "Principles of Peace"> We set aside the old paradigm of Israelis versus Palestinians and instead define our movement as moderates versus extremists.

    JakeBenson> I would like to interrupt this thread by saying the word: vagina.

    Are these extremist or moderate vaginas?




    Ceaserea4's Principles of Peace -==== Defend all actions of the ZIONIST FANATICS, when caught doing something wrong, like killing Palestinians unecessarrily, defend again and use the US media destroy their good reputaion, because all ZIONIST FANATICS know that if anyone calls them out for something, it is they that do wrong, THE ZIONIST FANATICS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT.


    Which ZIONIST FANATIC SECT do you belong to ? When are you moving back to one of your beloved ZIONIST settlements ?? Are you afraid to answer ??
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    Jan 24, 2011 2:06 PM GMT
    From Ray Hanania's "Principles of Peace":

    We strive to see the bigger picture and not get drawn in to the battle over the "pebble." We see that peace based on compromise is the answer to past violence and terrorism. We don't allow one disagreement to discourage us from seeking the bigger agreement of peace.
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    Jan 24, 2011 4:41 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidFrom Ray Hanania's "Principles of Peace":

    We strive to see the bigger picture and not get drawn in to the battle over the "pebble." We see that peace based on compromise is the answer to past violence and terrorism. We don't allow one disagreement to discourage us from seeking the bigger agreement of peace.




    This from you, the RJ chief ZIONIST FANATIC and Settlement backer/apologist, this is about as Hypocritical as it gets !!! Your OBNOXIOUS with this bullshit !!!
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    Feb 02, 2011 8:25 PM GMT
    If one has been perplexed by pouncer's curious silence in this topic, perhaps his posting elsewhere will reveal the depth of his deranged extremist hate:

    The anti-Israel criticism isn't meant to improve the situation (the best way would be to advocate for peace) but to demonize Israel in order to perpetuate the war against it - the source of the suffering. Beware these war-mongers.

    pouncer> Ah yes, the Chamberlain school of public diplomacy. Maybe you've forgotten, but as a result of that cowardice - when the jackboot wasn't on the Jewish foot - 6 million of your kinsmen lost their lives.

    So you are saying that if the Palestinian Arabs make peace with Israel they would be not just worse off, but mostly wiped out?

    Never mind that Israel has maintained the peace with Egypt for 32 years (since Egypt finally gave peace a chance) and with Jordan for 17 years (though technically over 40, but Jordan couldn't move ahead with a formal peace agreement prior to Oslo).

    Indeed, relish the irony that in the Egypt topic (which due to his unhealthy hateful obsession pouncer continues to attempt to make about Israel), he won't say if the next Egyptian government should honor and abide by the existing peace agreement between Egypt and Israel.

    What may be Chamberlainesque is attempting to make peace with Hamas, an organization that calls for the destruction of Israel and the genocide of Jews, rejecting negotiations, compromise and peace and - on a good day - talking about limited duration ceasefires [to allow them to build up their forces and then resume their war].


    Once again we see that pouncer hates Israel more than he cares for the Palestinian Arabs, even opposing peace to enable perpetuating the war to destroy Israel - no matter how much the Palestinian Arabs suffer, or die, in the process.
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    Feb 02, 2011 10:35 PM GMT
    WELL YOUR ON A ROLL WITH YOUR ZIONIST BULLSHIT AREN'T YOU !!!


    From what I read the ZIONIST FANATICS like the settler LIEBERMAN wants to take all of Jerusalem and continue the settlements expansion, so with you zionist, it appears no peace can be made,


    so when you moving there ?? go join them bygod !!!
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    Feb 08, 2011 5:06 PM GMT
    From another topic:

    pouncer> Benny Morris believes that Israel is "too small" for two peoples.

    Here's what Dr. Morris actually says:

    http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=c8eea81f-4540-419e-ad72-ff8ef6ec59c9
    It is worth noting, at this point, a major asymmetry in the evolution of the Jewish national movement and the Palestinian national movement. The Zionists, too, at first sought sovereignty over the whole of the land. As one early Zionist, Ze'ev Dubnow, put it in October 1882, the first year of Zionist settlement in Palestine: "The ultimate goal ... is, in time, to take over the Land of Israel and to restore to the Jews the political independence they have been deprived of for these two thousand years... The Jews will yet arise and, arms in hand (if need be), declare that they are the masters of their ancient homeland." But over the decades the Zionists came to recognize that the land was inhabited by hundreds of thousands of Arabs who devised their own collective identity and began to resist the Jewish influx. Following the start of the Arab Revolt, the Zionist movement formally accepted--in 1937, in response to the Peel Commission recommendations--the principle of partition, meaning a division of Palestine between its two communities. And in 1947, the movement accepted both the principle of partition and the specific United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181, which, positing the establishment of two states, awarded the Zionists some 55 percent of Palestine (most of it in the Negev desert) and the Palestinian Arabs some 40 percent.

    The shift in Zionist ideology from an ideologically pristine demand for all of Palestine to a sober acceptance of partition was not paralleled in the development of the Palestinian national movement. This asymmetry has underpinned the conflict since the 1930s.

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    Feb 08, 2011 5:12 PM GMT
    PEACE PEACE AND THEIR IS NO "YALLA, PEACE" !!! Its in the bible. Minus the word "YALLA" !!!! LOL !!!!



    As long as the there ZIONIST FANATIC LIKE OUR CEASEREA4 INVOLVED IN PEACE NEGOTIATIONS, PEACE IS IMPOSSIBLE, BECAUSE THEY"LL HAVE NO AGREEMENTS UNLESS ITS TOTALLY IN THEIR FAVOR !!!








    There are several questions on other topics you started waiting for you to answer, CUT YOUR ZIONIST PROPAGANDA AND ANSWER THEM !!!! WE'RE WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWERS
    '


    MY QUESTION IS ??? ARE YOUR ACTIONS AND RHETORIC HERE, REPRESENTATIVE AND OR TYPICAL OF THE ZIONISTS IN ISRAEL ???