Religion kills.

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    Mar 25, 2008 5:34 AM GMT
    discuss.
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    Mar 25, 2008 10:40 AM GMT
    *cough*

    The crusades, the inquisitions, the conquistadores, the jihads, the holocaust, Huguenot massacre, English-Spanish war, Ireland, Oklahoma bombing, antipopes vs. popes, holy roman empire wars, Byzantine empire's Emperor Constantine's wars in the name of the cross, Arab-Israeli war, East Timor, Pakistan-India-Bangladesh, Iraq-Iran, mujahideen, janissaries, aztec/mayan/toltec wars to bring in human sacrifice, Inca human sacrifice, thugees, Yugoslavia, Mohameddan war to retake Mecca, early American witchhunts...

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    Mar 25, 2008 12:53 PM GMT
    Sedative14 started a list that could have gone on and on...there's no question that religion has played a part/been used as excuse in lots of conflicts. But even if we imagine no religion (thanks John L.) people would still find other differences and excuses to kill each other. I guess my point being that people kill, religion kills indirectly.

    Being Danish I'm not ashamed to say that I'm an Atheist. Denmark is quite different from the U.S, in the way that you don't have to announce your faith in some deity to ensure votes in an election, in fact that would even be a disadvantage ( the Christian Democratic Party gets less than 2 per cent of the votes). People who display religious views in public are generally viewed with scepticism. The Danes aren't all atheists, faith is just a private matter and imposing views on others based on religion is considered rude.
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    Mar 25, 2008 2:55 PM GMT
    I do miss the American separation of church and state.
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    Mar 25, 2008 3:01 PM GMT
    I am going to finish the sentence with another thought.

    Religion kills...brain cells.

    Today I got an e-mail from a Christian friend that Barack Obama is the anti-Christ because he is in his 40s, is articulate and able to sway people. icon_rolleyes.gif

    My mind is reeling with so many thoughts about what to say in response that I can't quite get them all down.
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    Mar 25, 2008 3:03 PM GMT
    Religion is like a drug. A touch of it can be enlightening, mind expanding, perspective changing. But it can be addictive to those who lack the confidence or strength to moderate. So they overindulge and become religious zealots. Some go so far as to kill or inclite others to violence it the name of religion.

    Just like the crackhead getting swept up in his highest of highs and gang-banging.
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    Mar 25, 2008 3:06 PM GMT
    ...balance...I am religious myself but too many people get caught up in single issues and lose sight of the big picture...
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    Mar 25, 2008 3:09 PM GMT
    Power struggles kill. Religion is just a tool of some power mongers. Sweeping statements are so boring because they are generally false (irony!).
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    Mar 25, 2008 3:14 PM GMT
    Sedative14 said*cough*
    The crusades, the inquisitions, the conquistadores, the jihads, the holocaust, Huguenot massacre, English-Spanish war, Ireland, Oklahoma bombing, antipopes vs. popes, holy roman empire wars, Byzantine empire's Emperor Constantine's wars in the name of the cross, Arab-Israeli war, East Timor, Pakistan-India-Bangladesh, Iraq-Iran, mujahideen, janissaries, aztec/mayan/toltec wars to bring in human sacrifice, Inca human sacrifice, thugees, Yugoslavia, Mohameddan war to retake Mecca, early American witchhunts...


    Yes and No - To the whole discussion. Religion in itself is not bad. Like gun either it could be used against someone else for defense; like Gandhi against the British in his day; or could misused like during the Salem Witch Trials, and all the reasons above. Than again, I'm in no place to speak on behalf for religion, since I myself only am spiritual and don't seek others to follow "MY" path. And though there's a long hidden, if not forgotten, potential in religion; there's as we all know too well, a blindness, willlessness and 'holier than thou' aspect when religion is used in the wrong way. It's when we forget people of other religions are still people, that the curruptive nature or religion and humanity surface.

    With that, my questions then becomes:
    Do you have heavier gun restictions, or make guns illegal?
    Similarly, do you change the way people view their religious rights and practices so that they don't act harshly towards those of different or no creeds; or do you do away with religion altogether?
  • swimbikerun

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    Mar 25, 2008 3:24 PM GMT
    Religion poisons everything:
    http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807
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    Mar 25, 2008 3:28 PM GMT
    VineyardHmo saiddiscuss.


    I think in a 5 thousand years, things will be better. Man may evolve into a creature that no longer needs religion to maintain social order, protect national interests and keep poor people in their place.

    At the heart of every religion, I believe the main message is, or should be, about LOVE. Unfortunatley, it sounds good in prinicple, but like communism, it doesn't work in reality. Religion will always be used by the masses to justify anything...including hate.
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    Mar 25, 2008 3:32 PM GMT
    VineyardHmo saiddiscuss.


    OK so what is the point of your posting? This seems a little vague and I'm not sure what the relevance of your statement. Is this statement in response to a world event or recent news item or just a general bashing of religion? How about, Religion Cares and solicit all of the religions that have reached out to the poor, hungry, the needy, those struggling but then again I believe, imho, that list would be much longer than the one that you would make of the killings throughout history.
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    Mar 25, 2008 3:39 PM GMT
    Depends on the religion. Some religions require sacrificial offerings.
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    Mar 25, 2008 3:51 PM GMT
    Religion is unnecessary. You can believe in God and even the teachings of his divine willed prophets without having to organize and have an agenda. If that religion asks that you convert then it is going against the true notion of God, which is to leave us to free will.

    Just my two cents.
  • jarhead5536

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    Mar 25, 2008 3:58 PM GMT
    Here we go again. I just love the way that atheist make sweeping generalizations about faith (all bad). I say in my profile that I'm not pushy about my faith, but you guys are making me do this.

    All religious faith is not equal. There are some of us that really believe that faith can be, CAN BE, a force for good in the world. Even the most cursory reading of the teachings of Jesus reveals a humanistic philosophy of unconditional brotherly love, social justice and tolerance, nay, acceptance of all kinds of diversity. Men have certainly come along and perverted these pure ideals, but that is no excuse to abandon them.

    So much of the hatred towards religion in the gay community (particularly against Christianity) seems to be the direct result of fundie damage inflicted early on in childhood. Christian fundamentalists have strayed so far from the teachings of the philosopher Jesus that their "Christianity" is almost unrecognizable as such by true Christians.

    About this time a guy used to come along and call me a weak minded follower of a false belief system, but alas, he is no longer among us. Anyone else want to jump in here?
  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Mar 25, 2008 4:08 PM GMT
    Hmph...

    Religion is the codification of rules for human conduct, as derived and legitimized from one or more divine sources (at least in theistic religions).

    From a secular perspective, this codification comes from, is interpreted by, and implemented on the part of human agents (individual and organized). These humans, with varying degrees of self-awareness, create or establish justifications for past, current, and future "power struggles."

    These struggles need not be battles between nations; they can include intra-church conflicts, claims on valued resources (including territory), and agreements or compromises with other power centres.

    From my viewpoint, religion is a human game. It provides the same kind of social b*llsh*t that humanism does with humanism's insistence on human rights and the idea that a human being has more value than the minerals the human is composed of. It is an agreement on stated principles between its professed followers; the major difference between it and humanism is that it legitimates itself through a divine reality.

    ***
    Religion does not kill. Humans do.
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    Mar 25, 2008 4:09 PM GMT
    Yes Jarhead l am not religious but spiritual and the Teachings of Jesus is all about "what goes around" Remember he was also a bit of a Rebel in his time!

    He is the only one l Believe in but thats my choice and we also have to remember people like Mother Theresa who devoted her life doing good and many of the others before her.

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    Mar 25, 2008 4:15 PM GMT
    jarhead5536 saidHere we go again. I just love the way that atheist make sweeping generalizations about faith (all bad). I say in my profile that I'm not pushy about my faith, but you guys are making me do this.

    All religious faith is not equal. There are some of us that really believe that faith can be, CAN BE, a force for good in the world. Even the most cursory reading of the teachings of Jesus reveals a humanistic philosophy of unconditional brotherly love, social justice and tolerance, nay, acceptance of all kinds of diversity. Men have certainly come along and perverted these pure ideals, but that is no excuse to abandon them.

    So much of the hatred towards religion in the gay community (particularly against Christianity) seems to be the direct result of fundie damage inflicted early on in childhood. Christian fundamentalists have strayed so far from the teachings of the philosopher Jesus that their "Christianity" is almost unrecognizable as such by true Christians.

    About this time a guy used to come along and call me a weak minded follower of a false belief system, but alas, he is no longer among us. Anyone else want to jump in here?


    That is what I meant when I said "there is something basic at the heart of every religion...LOVE". I don't think you need a religion to feel this. I don't.

    I support any belief system that helps make a person/this world better. I feel nothing except contempt for people who follow a religion but don't practise love in their daily thoughts. And I feel equal contempt for the rabid folks who dismiss religion without understanding the good elements

    Most folks misinterpret and use religion in bad ways.....
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    Mar 25, 2008 4:18 PM GMT
    Damarco saidReligion is unnecessary. You can believe in God and even the teachings of his divine willed prophets without having to organize and have an agenda. If that religion asks that you convert then it is going against the true notion of God, which is to leave us to free will.

    Just my two cents.


    That makes no sense to me Damarco. First to believe in god would assume that you have knowledge that you were created by a higher being and unless you were the first created you probably would have that knowledge based on religious teachings. Those teachings of his divine will taught by prophets would have had to come from some sort of organized religion so I don't think you can believe in god without religion.

    As for "leave us to free will", I don't know of any religion where the god leaves you to your free will. The god expects great things of his people regardless of what god it is and does not just allow for his people to just have "free will". It is exactly the desire of "free will" that causes religions to fracture and create branches, some good and some known to be not so good. Some gods thought to be angered by the people's need for "free will" instead of his will.

    I think any assertion that religion is bad or unnecessary is drawn solely from the view that we don't like things that limit our "free will" or the knowledge of those who would chose to exclude others based on false understandings or ignorant interpretations. Many chose to ignore all the work that is done to help, promote, sustain and guide, all people in a path of love and kindness because they or their cause has been wrongly treated.

    I personally feel there has been much wrongly preached against this community but the overall compassion of most religions leaves this wrong doing as a small blimp of selfishness on the radar, compared with the selflessness of many in the over world view. Only my opinion!


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    Mar 25, 2008 4:34 PM GMT
    Well technically religion doesn't kill anyone. Religion is not an object able to directly impact us. People under the influence of religious thinking kill people.

    The brain is hardwired for experiences and perceptions that lead to belief in the supernatural. 2000 years ago we didn't know any better so we invented christianity out of existing myth. Today we people can't really die then come back after three days.

    The danger of religion today is that it provides an authority base for legal decisions.
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    Mar 25, 2008 5:04 PM GMT
    Trance23 saidWell technically religion doesn't kill anyone. Religion is not an object able to directly impact us. People under the influence of religious thinking kill people.

    The brain is hardwired for experiences and perceptions that lead to belief in the supernatural. 2000 years ago we didn't know any better so we invented christianity out of existing myth. Today we people can't really die then come back after three days.

    The danger of religion today is that it provides an authority base for legal decisions.


    Interesting that you should say that Trance. According to scripture, Jesus did just that...back in 3. And if you continue in that scripture (known as the Bible), you'll find an account from Paul (Saul) on the road to Damascus revealing his account of having seen Jesus AFTER his death and because he wasn't sure anyone would believe him (imagine, even he sensed the doubters), he advises the people of Corinth that additionally He was seen by 500 others and qualifies it by indicating that "most of whom are still living". Now don't you think that if it were NOT true, someone might have corrected that then? Myth? Come on, yeah it is foreign to us today and true I've yet to be at a funeral where after the 3rd day the person got up and walked away but I think there is plenty to substantiate what has been written in the Bible throughout history.
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    Mar 25, 2008 5:19 PM GMT
    KissingPro and NickoftheNorth pretty much said it...

    But I can't help trying to provoke some more.
    To me, religion has a logic and historical explanation.

    Before the age of reason, humans come up w fantastic tales to to explain the marvels of the world and assume a higher being...Ingenious people take advantage of these superstitions and come up w divine laws (some makes sense others not) to inspire fear and to rule others...

    Religion to me is little more than superstition and exploitation of the naive like, say astrology, numerology, aura readings, crystal healing, ouija boards, voodoo, psychic abilities and fortune telling.

    Honestly, I don't think people who believe in Santa Claus are any more naive than religious people...only younger.

    Religion is seriously outdated, it's a thing of the dark ages, we know better now. Has science and progress tought us nothing?

    I actually heard of a survey where, in IQ tests, people who believed in (a) higher being/s on average scored significantly lower than non-believers...I'll just let that sit there...

    and await some angry retorts icon_razz.gif
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    Mar 25, 2008 5:22 PM GMT
    Wow... this is almost as stupid as saying "Science Kills"...

    Nuclear weapons, laser guided missiles, military satellites, biological weapons, chemical weapons, etc,etc...


    Throughout history science has been used for war... OBVIOUSLY the world would be a much better place without science!
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    Mar 25, 2008 5:27 PM GMT
    I do NOT agree that religion kills. It's nice to have faith in something. But to each his own. icon_cool.gif
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    Mar 25, 2008 5:43 PM GMT
    Meanwhile, I have a cousin who started his own religion in Pittsburgh back in the 80s. They were 'Christian' in nature, according to him, and he behaved in a very messianic, yet slightly prissy fashion. He always wore white, as did all of his followers, most of whom were middle aged and younger woman, as well as several teen boys and college-aged men.

    I visited the family farm twice while I was a teen (late 80s, early 90s) and brought his 'apostles' with him each time. The first time I just thought him eccentric. He talked a great deal about higher minds, God, personal connections to Jesus, etc. The second time it was more clear to my hormone conscious mind - he was a freak who was clearly sleeping with the male followers and probably some of the women too. The women didn't do anything without his say so and the boys were all goggly-eyed and swoony in his presence. I've not seen him since that second visit. No one knows if he's still alive. His last letter to family members - in hand written brush calligraphy - spoke of his losing his church and taking a job at a hospital!

    Anyway, just thought I'd share that little kernel about religion....