"Bush's War"

  • GeorgeNJ

    Posts: 216

    Mar 26, 2008 2:51 AM GMT
    PBS's program Frontline is having a two-part series (2 hours each) on the whole debacle that surrounds the Bush administration and the current Iraq war. Highly recommended since it includes a lot of info that is new. Also available online at

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_1_frontlinebrbushswar_2008-03-25


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    Mar 26, 2008 3:06 AM GMT
    Thank you very much for posting this !!!
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    Mar 26, 2008 3:24 AM GMT

    WARNING:

    Do not eat a meal before seeing this otherwise you'll hurl it up after watching it.

    That is how disturbing it is.

    B787
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    Mar 26, 2008 4:58 AM GMT
    I missed it tonight but I did see some holes in their story last night. Damn, I expected better of WGBU.
    First of all, if the FBI had Mohammed Atta in Miami when the Czechs said he was in Prague, why didn't they have him at the Boston Airport on the morning of 9/11?
    The other is the Yellow Cake Uranium. In June of 03 of all people, Greenpeace was checking out the environmental damage the war caused when they came upon the village of Tuwaitha. The inhabitants emptied metal containers or Yellow cake uranium for use to carry water. They dumped it on the ground. For some reason the Greenpeace workers were alarmed.
    The US Army and the IAEA were notified. The US Army cleaned it up but the IAEA got pissed that the US Army gave it to the US Air Force who took it away never to be seen again. Greenpeace confirmed it as yellow cake uranium. I'm surprised that even Fox news didn't carry that story. But if you google Greanpeace Tuwaitha Iraq, you'll get a hit and read all about it.
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    Mar 26, 2008 5:16 AM GMT
    There was a video I saw that I really liked ( No End in Sight http://imdb.com/title/tt0912593/) that gives a blow by blow account of all the blunders that happened AFTER the invasion by Rumsfield and some other sub-ordinates. It describes many problems other than the invasion itself could have been avoided if not for so many bad decisions and missed opportunities.

    My roommate who was a graduate of the Naval Academy and a Naval officer/veteran also weighed in. He thought it was a fair and accurate portrayal. I would recommend it for anyone wanting a summary of what happened after the initial invasion.

    CNN is running some "5 years after" stuff too but it is not as in depth as I would like. I like getting info from my friends who are serving now or have served over there.

    I will have to see this PBS thing .. I don't like the other network news lately
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    Mar 26, 2008 7:22 AM GMT
    More Bitter Bush Bashing, people trying to rewrite history, forgetting that the U.S. congress voted on the war, voted to back the war, and still continue to do so, and it's not ALL Bush's doing -- nuff said.
  • RSportsguy

    Posts: 1925

    Mar 26, 2008 9:24 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidMore Bitter Bush Bashing, people trying to rewrite history, forgetting that the U.S. congress voted on the war, voted to back the war, and still continue to do so, and it's not ALL Bush's doing -- nuff said.


    Be fair Curious Jock, Congress did not exactly receive the most truthful information when they had to base their decision on which way to vote either.

    I am reserving my judgment on this program because I have only seen half of the first episode so far.
  • PRDGUY

    Posts: 641

    Mar 26, 2008 9:46 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidMore Bitter Bush Bashing, people trying to rewrite history, forgetting that the U.S. congress voted on the war, voted to back the war, and still continue to do so, and it's not ALL Bush's doing -- nuff said.



    AMEN

    OH WAIT PROBABLY MAKES ME PART OF THE VAST RIGHT WING EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT USING A RELIGIOUS TERM...
  • PRDGUY

    Posts: 641

    Mar 26, 2008 9:58 AM GMT
    RSportsguy said[quote][cite]CuriousJockAZ said[/cite]More Bitter Bush Bashing, people trying to rewrite history, forgetting that the U.S. congress voted on the war, voted to back the war, and still continue to do so, and it's not ALL Bush's doing -- nuff said.


    Be fair Curious Jock, Congress did not exactly receive the most truthful information when they had to base their decision on which way to vote either.

    I am reserving my judgment on this program because I have only seen half of the first episode so far. [/quote]



    Received the most accurate information available at that given time.


    Of course perhaps I missed Pres. Bush's impeachment due to evidence of his lies, or evidence of his ESP for knowledge of all that we know now.

    I hate any war. War destroys life not only on our side among our soldiers and contractors, but among civilians in Iraq, and life is something I hold sacred.
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    Mar 26, 2008 10:50 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidMore Bitter Bush Bashing, people trying to rewrite history, forgetting that the U.S. congress voted on the war, voted to back the war, and still continue to do so, and it's not ALL Bush's doing -- nuff said.


    Good heavens, you really ARE a zombie, aren't you. Does George Romero pay well?
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    Mar 26, 2008 9:16 PM GMT
    No, I'm just smart enough to know that Bush isn't responsible for everything on the planet that comes down the pike.

    As for the congress not going off of accurate information they were given, they went off the same information that Bush had -- if it was flawed, that's not exactly something we can blame Bush for. But, go ahead, knock yourself out, let the Dems blame Bush for everything while coming up with no real better ideas or more viable solutions. All that will do is insure that the Republicans retain the White House in November.
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    Mar 26, 2008 9:25 PM GMT
    It's not just george bush...it was his entire administration. Read "State of War" by James Risen. He talks about the incredible pressure placed on the intellignce community by Bush's staff to come up with reasons to go to war with Iraq. AND how anyone who naysayed their efforts got canned or swept under the rug. It was apparently an atmosphere where a bunch of newbies saw a chance to get into the good graces of Rumslfeld and Cheney, by taking any hint of a reason to go to war and giving it the weight of fact.

  • GeorgeNJ

    Posts: 216

    Mar 26, 2008 9:51 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said... As for the congress not going off of accurate information they were given, they went off the same information that Bush had -- if it was flawed, that's not exactly something we can blame Bush for...


    I wish I could believe this. And as for Bush having accurate info, it is his business as Commander-in-Chief to have accurate info before making a decision with such far-reaching consequences.

    I am not a pacifist, but I do believe war has got to be the absolute, absolute, absolute last resort. Bush proved himself to be trigger-happy, short-sighted, and pig-headed in his decisions. As president of the USA, he is primarily responsible for the decision and its ugly consequences. Ignorance -- not having "accurate information" -- is nothing more than a rationalization for his grave incompetence and irresponsibility.
  • RSportsguy

    Posts: 1925

    Mar 26, 2008 9:56 PM GMT
    A few simple questions for Curious Jock and Prdgoy. Have you watched any of this program? Where in my post did I "Bush bash"? Where did I hint that he should be impeached? This is the reason I don't post in political forums.
  • dhinkansas

    Posts: 764

    Mar 26, 2008 9:57 PM GMT
    It's a war in a culture we will never understand and it's like Vietnam really...there's no such thing as victory. I have a ton of respect for the men and women over there doing what they feel is the right thing to do, and I'm sure this topic is highly charged for any of you RJ folks who have lost friends or loved ones. The toll is now 4,000. Just a terrible figure. At this point, all of Washington should be ashamed of themselves. There really appears to be no end to it and the politicians can't agree how or when to pull out. Not to mention the drain it has put on the economy. Bankrupt America...it happened to Russia in Afghanistan and I'm sure the terrorists love the economic choke-hold this war has on America.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    Mar 26, 2008 10:06 PM GMT
    RSportsguy saidA few simple questions for Curious Jock and Prdgoy. Have you watched any of this program? Where in my post did I "Bush bash"? Where did I hint that he should be impeached? This is the reason I don't post in political forums.


    Sorry, Sportsguy, no offense meant...I was stating that the program is yet another bunch of Bush bashing...never meant that you were Bashing Bush.
  • RSportsguy

    Posts: 1925

    Mar 26, 2008 10:07 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said[quote][cite]RSportsguy said[/cite]A few simple questions for Curious Jock and Prdgoy. Have you watched any of this program? Where in my post did I "Bush bash"? Where did I hint that he should be impeached? This is the reason I don't post in political forums.


    Sorry, Sportsguy, no offense meant...I was stating that the program is yet another bunch of Bush bashing...never meant that you were Bashing Bush.[/quote]

    Thanks man!! All's good!!icon_wink.gif
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    Mar 26, 2008 10:33 PM GMT
    I'm happy to bash Bush...go ahead, flame me.

    That Congress was complicit in this debacle, preemptive clusterf*ck does nothing to exonerate Bush and his administration.

    They ALL had a free pass from the media on this one, another party who I will be happy to bash.

    There was intelligence out there that contradicted the direction the administration was heading. I was able to read it before we went to war. I was dismayed all of that was brushed aside with the "smoking gun...mushroom cloud" bullsh!t rhetoric.

    The issue: Congress should never have authorized this madman. We all knew he was mad before the Supreme Court made him president. I would argue that most of Congress who voted for this authorization had a cut of the pie, and that's why they did it.

    War as a first resort? Come on...you'd never have given Bill Clinton this leeway.
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    Mar 27, 2008 4:42 PM GMT
    pssst, Mickey? you kinda just turned me on a little..
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    Mar 27, 2008 4:54 PM GMT
    The charge of Bush bashing is as absurd as the label of "the liberal media." The media has been riding Hillary's and Obama's respective asses like there is no tomorrow.

    This war has been badly mangled and only the final stalwarts of the Bush administration are left to disagree. People who had no military experience, like Rumsfeld and Rice, were given the keys to this war and it has been a clusterf*ck. It is no secret that Bush wanted this war from the very beginning.

    There is no absolution for Congress for voting with it, but let us not forget the slander and jingoism that was being hurled at anyone who dared dissent from Bush at the time, which was post 9/11. The Democratic members who voted for it were not in strong enough positions with their home state electorate to survive a Karl Rove slander campaign. The ones who could survive it stood against it, as with Kennedy, Byrd and Frank. The disgraceful adminstration that is Bush/ Cheney tainted our relations with France and Germany for this war with Iraq.

    I saw most of the Frontline piece, which I have on DVR. Frontline nails it. The egos, the cults of personality, the warmongering, the greed of the most disgraceful Presidential administration in our nation's history that make the collectives of Grant, Harding, Nixon and Reagan put together look like amateurs.
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    Mar 27, 2008 5:51 PM GMT
    A war that should never have taken place. Saddam Hussein was never a threat to the USA, he did not have links to Al-Qaeda etc. etc.. The major threat in the region is Iran, now the USA is too weakened by Iraq to really do anything but utter empty threats. Iran's theocracy is much more likely to support Islamic Fundamentalism then the secular Hussein ever was (albeit a Shiite group not a Sunni group).

    Secondly, Saudi Arabia is another big problem in the region. It's education system is churning out Western civilization hating zealots by the thousands. The USA's addiciton to oil is causing them to turn a blind eye. If an Iran type theocracy ever takes control of Saudi Arabia, then look out.

    Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld have to shoulder a lot of the blame for Iraq, but the Congress cannot escape either, after all they did vote in favour of it.

    Finally, once the war started the US administration did just about everything wrong. Not enough troops, dismissal of the Iraq army, no clear plan on how to manage the country after the fighting was done, believing that they would be welcomed with open arms, etc..

    I am frankly surprised the USA only lost 3,900+ soldiers and that the country is fairly calm (except for Basra) after five years despite all these blunders. If McCain had been in power they at least would have been better prepared. If Gore had been in power (or Bush senior for that matter) they never would have entered the god forsaken place at all.

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    Mar 27, 2008 6:00 PM GMT
    jbedwards saidA war that should never have taken place. Saddam Hussein was never a threat to the USA, he did not have links to Al-Qaeda etc. etc.. The major threat in the region is Iran, now the USA is too weakened by Iraq to really do anything but utter empty threats. Iran's theocracy is much more likely to support Islamic Fundamentalism then the secular Hussein ever was (albeit a Shiite group not a Sunni group).

    Secondly, Saudi Arabia is another big problem in the region. It's education system is churning out Western civilization hating zealots by the thousands. The USA's addiciton to oil is causing them to turn a blind eye. If an Iran type theocracy ever takes control of Saudi Arabia, then look out.

    Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld have to shoulder a lot of the blame for Iraq, but the Congress cannot escape either, after all they did vote in favour of it.

    Finally, once the war started the US administration did just about everything wrong. Not enough troops, dismissal of the Iraq army, no clear plan on how to manage the country after the fighting was done, believing that they would be welcomed with open arms, etc..

    I am frankly surprised the USA only lost 3,900+ soldiers and that the country is fairly calm (except for Basra) after five years despite all these blunders. If McCain had been in power they at least would have been better prepared. If Gore had been in power (or Bush senior for that matter) they never would have entered the god forsaken place at all.




    JB You said it all and nothing to add !
  • GeorgeNJ

    Posts: 216

    Mar 27, 2008 6:41 PM GMT
    JB points out the implications for a weakened USA in the face of a highly unstable middle east (Iran, Saudi Arabia). The decision of the Bush administration for this war was a colossal gamble, and has left us ill-equipped for the real problems that are down the road.
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    Mar 27, 2008 6:47 PM GMT
    From my perspective, as someone who served in Iraq, I just wish people would stop going on and on and on about how much of a mistake it was. Mistake, yes, we all know a lot of mistakes were made. Can people start actually discussing solutions for once, instead of harping on what has happened? From the guys who've posted so far, you acknowledge the errors- so what would you do to fix it?
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    Mar 27, 2008 6:58 PM GMT
    yalemarine saidFrom my perspective, as someone who served in Iraq, I just wish people would stop going on and on and on about how much of a mistake it was. Mistake, yes, we all know a lot of mistakes were made. Can people start actually discussing solutions for once, instead of harping on what has happened? From the guys who've posted so far, you acknowledge the errors- so what would you do to fix it?


    One positive thing the USA did was implement the so-called "surge". It was controversial at the time, but probably the best way of improving a bad situation. Bolting out of Iraq would not have been a smart thing to do, it would have likely resulted in massive civil war in Iraq and potential chaos in the Middle East.

    If I was an American I would be very leery about voting for anyone that proposed getting involved in other countries militarily in order to increase security in the USA. It did not work in Vietnam and was of questionable wisdom in Iraq. I am not sure if anybody on RJ has anymore power and influence then when they vote.