So why fem, and why do gay men become more masculine when the get older

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    Mar 26, 2008 6:14 AM GMT
    SO I was reading this very cool book that talks about gay men taking back their masculinity/ And it talks about the Idea of men who are effeminate. It talks about the truth of the matter that not many men are attracted to that fem, high fashion gay guy. And the way it settles down...... gay porn. What is the hugest market of gay porn the masculine type where it cops, though guys, army men, and really buff guys. yes there are ones for skinny twinks and other stuff but most gay guys want a man. Am I right? I mean almost all men here want a very tough masculine guy. There tired of boys, and dont want to be one. And the idea was that the popularity of those porn showed people true desires. I mean you rareley every see a porn with hot high fashion men coming in and having sex. It mostly big masculine guy fucking each others brains out.

    It also talked about why gay men end up working oput so much when the mature and so many of them are drawn to bears and leather daddy stuff is because they are tired of the whole gay boy thing and truly deep down inside want to be men. Does this make any sense to anyone? because when I read this I was like this is me!
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    Mar 26, 2008 6:29 AM GMT
    It makes me laugh that as a community we are so obsessed with making ourselves 'different' types of homosexual from each other.

    Straight Acting, Gay acting, femme, muscle mary's, twinks, bears, cubs, otters the list goes on and on.

    I suppose it's human nature to focus on what makes us different from each other rather than the same.

    I will freely admit cynicism about 'masculine acters' as in my experience the ones that bang the drum over and over about their non-gayness tend to be the biggest 'gays'.

    I think nothing beats accepting that you can be both masculine and femminine. I've always felt one of my biggest social advantage is the fact that I can appreciate both those sides of my nature.

    Some of my responses to things are certainly very feminie while other things bring out the more masculine side of my nature.

    I think it is a shame that more 'straight acting' men don't realise that heterosexual masculinity is far from an ideal state to exist in.

    Your homosexuality, because of societies prejudice against it, gives you the perfect opportunity to be whatever kind of man you want and with that much choice I would have hoped more men would be a little more inventive with their own sense of sexuality and gender.

    That doesn't mean having to wear women's clothing or squeal like a girl.

    But by the same token you don't have to repress away all traces of femmininity.

    In my book the man who embraces both sides of his nature , be he gay or straight, really is a 'whole man'.
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    Mar 26, 2008 6:32 AM GMT
    I feel like your right and yet maybe this is more about me who knows. people make generalizations about things that only really apply to themselves all the time
  • ShawnTX

    Posts: 2484

    Mar 26, 2008 2:29 PM GMT
    Whether it's being femme or being butch, it's a persona. It's a group of actions, thoughts, and mannerisms that are put-on, practiced and rehearsed, based on what we and society sees as stereotypical to that particular label.

    We constantly change as we age, new life experiences affect how we see ourselves and the world around us. When you combine the rebellious and in-your-face attitudes so common amongst teen-agers, it's no surprise that many of them put on that femme persona. It's loud, it's visible, it's defiant, it's-in-your face (I'm here, I'm queer, get over it!).

    As we mature we realize that we aren't wholly defined by our sexuality. So that femme persona can start to melt away, replaced by a more balanced one, or going from one extreme to another, replaced by the butch persona.

    I'm generalizing here, which I don't like to do, but it gets my point across.
  • Powertrip

    Posts: 64

    Mar 26, 2008 2:48 PM GMT
    redheadguy said
    Your homosexuality, because of societies prejudice against it, gives you the perfect opportunity to be whatever kind of man you want and with that much choice I would have hoped more men would be a little more inventive with their own sense of sexuality and gender.


    Thank you very much... that's exactly what I think and how I feel. It's pretty much the same with gay couples and how sometimes they focus so much on the marriage thing or (don't hate me for this) the monogamous way of living.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having my parter all for myself and reciprocate, I'm also all for getting the same rights when it comes to insurance, medical stuff and all that. But, it is also important to remember that we shouldn't focus so much on trying to copy or replicate the heterosexual way of living. Each gay relationship is a chance to create a new way of functioning that may or may not include traditional expectations. But in order to get there, we must first get rid of all prejudice and see ourselves and our true feelings and colors for what they are and not for what they should be.

    where's the limit, you say? Well, to me the limit is mental and physical health. If it's unhealthy for our bodies or our minds it shouldn't be done. So there... what do you think?icon_smile.gif
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    Mar 26, 2008 3:03 PM GMT
    Like redheadguy "I think nothing beats accepting that you can be both masculine and femminine. I've always felt one of my biggest social advantage is the fact that I can appreciate both those sides of my nature."

    On a dating/intimate level, I could not date an overly Fem guy, not because they're Fem, just TYPICALLY lifestyles just don't mesh or merge well. However I would NEVER shoot someone down on a friendship level just because they are more Fem.
    And it makes me laugh, and I'll laugh OUT LOUD in their faces, when I see these "masculine" appearing guy, you know, well built, tats and what not, and then when they speak a purse falls out. It's such a facade and very disturbing to me to see this. I refer to it as the "Faux Man"!
    My thing is this, just be comfortable in your own skin, own it, and be it, and I won't see you as a phony!
    As humans we all look to be accepted and be part of a group, and as we grow and evolve we migrate to a different group and so on....
  • SoDakGuy

    Posts: 1862

    Mar 26, 2008 3:09 PM GMT
    Well, here's the thing ... I think when you are younger and you come out, you're trying to find your identity - your role in life and you do try everything. Eventually, you figure out who you are and how comfy you are in your skin and perhaps you may end up being more masculine than you were when you were younger or even more effeminate.

    Who knows?

    I know I'm more masculine than I was when I came out. It's all a part of the growing process. I didn't CHOOSE like choosing what I'm eating for lunch. It progressed into this.

    I'm comfortable with who I am. icon_smile.gif
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    Mar 26, 2008 3:30 PM GMT
    I agree with SoDakGuy. One of the hallmarks of coming out is trying to find your place in society, and it is natural to wonder to what degree being gay defines you as a person. That's where we see guys putting on fronts - whether they be hypermasculine or effete. As we grow more comfortable in our shiny, pretty gay skins - and at the same time realize our entire identities don't need to hinge on being gay - those personas tend to fall away.

    Or at least, so thinks I.
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    Mar 26, 2008 3:44 PM GMT
    I must admit my behaviour did not change when I came out in terms of femme vs. butch. Then again I have always had a very strong sense of my separateness from others which can be both good and bad.

    I have not really noticed that gay guys who were more femme when they were younger become less so when they are older. I think ShawnTO is correct though when some gay guys come out it is such a feeling of empowerment that they take on the "we are queer we are here" persona.

    The thing I find odd about this whole discussion is why we obsess about femme vs. butch. In straight society I don't hear constant discussions about why some women are not as feminine as others. My mom was hardly what I would call a "girly-girl", never wore makeup or had her ears pierced. Yet I don't recall people saying she should act more feminine.
  • fryblock

    Posts: 387

    Mar 26, 2008 3:52 PM GMT
    I agree with pretty much everything that has been said. I had a "feminine" phase when I came out, slicked back hair, tight jeans and shirts every now and then, but that was all a transition period, figuring out who I was. Now I'm not masculine, but I'm not feminine, more so a mix of both.

    jbedwards saidThe thing I find odd about this whole discussion is why we obsess about femme vs. butch. In straight society I don't hear constant discussions about why some women are not as feminine as others. My mom was hardly what I would call a "girly-girl", never wore makeup or had her ears pierced. Yet I don't recall people saying she should act more feminine.


    My mom owns a maximum of two dresses. She is a PE teacher, wears minimal make up, always in jeans or shorts, tshirts, and sneakers, but no on has told her to fem it up. Except me when she decides to wear a dress to an event and it's not the right style for her icon_razz.gif
  • sandiegovince

    Posts: 111

    Mar 26, 2008 4:23 PM GMT
    Like I've always said if I wanted to date someone feminine I'd have a girlfriend, and I think this site bears out that truth. Hey, most of us are here on this site for a reason, to become healthier--physically, mentally and spiritually and in turn with the hope of attracting that same kind of man. If it's an attempt to take back our masculinity so be it. I refuse to buy into the gay stereotype of the overtly flamboyant, feminine guy--sorry Carson Kressley need not apply. I feel it does a disservice to us as gay men--the gay community is more diverse than that. That's what I liked about the movie "The Object of My Affection" it was about a regular guy who just happened to be sexually attracted to men, and I think it speaks to a lot of us.
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    Mar 26, 2008 4:39 PM GMT
    sandiegovince saidI refuse to buy into the gay stereotype of the overtly flamboyant, feminine guy--sorry Carson Kressley need not apply. I feel it does a disservice to us as gay men--the gay community is more diverse than that.


    I'll have to disagree with you on this statement! I don't believe they add a disservice to our community. I believe that they as well as the rest of each subculture adds to our community. It's not any particular genre that adds disservice, it's the individuals that are ignorant that add disservice. Now, not being attracted or want to date a Fem guy, I TOTALLY understand. However to go as far to say that they add a disservice to our community is not a good way to view what they offer or who they are. If I am incorrect in what I interpreted in what you wrote, I stand corrected, however if not, I don't think it's right for anyone of us to discount a genre/group just because YOU don't personally identify with them. Trust me, I understand not dating the Fem guy, however I have MANY friends that are and they are GREAT guys! Yet who's to say that just because the "faux man" isn't just as big of a Nelly Queen as the skinny little Fem guy?!?!?!? I mean just cause he's built, has tats and dresses more "masculine"??? I don't think so!
  • sandiegovince

    Posts: 111

    Mar 26, 2008 4:45 PM GMT
    I'm sorry 1972, I left some of my thoughts out on my original post. So let me clarify-- What I meant to say is to label (general i.e. society) the gay community, especially all gay men as effeminate would be a disservice. I stand by the rest of my post. ;)
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    Mar 26, 2008 4:50 PM GMT
    sandiegovince saidI'm sorry 1972, I left some of my thoughts out on my original post. So let me clarify-- What I meant to say is to label (general i.e. society) the gay community, especially all gay men as effeminate would be a disservice. I stand by the rest of my post. ;)


    No worries! It just took me by surprise! Thanks for clarifying!! BTW, how's my hometown?!?!?!?
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    Mar 26, 2008 4:53 PM GMT
    sandiegovince saidLike I've always said if I wanted to date someone feminine I'd have a girlfriend, and I think this site bears out that truth. Hey, most of us are here on this site for a reason, to become healthier--physically, mentally and spiritually and in turn with the hope of attracting that same kind of man. If it's an attempt to take back our masculinity so be it. I refuse to buy into the gay stereotype of the overtly flamboyant, feminine guy--sorry Carson Kressley need not apply. I feel it does a disservice to us as gay men--the gay community is more diverse than that. That's what I liked about the movie "The Object of My Affection" it was about a regular guy who just happened to be sexually attracted to men, and I think it speaks to a lot of us.
    u

    ok so you say that the gay community is diverse yet you blatently blackball a cross-section of that diversity. Think before you type.
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    Mar 26, 2008 4:56 PM GMT
    ShortJake said[quote][cite]sandiegovince said[/cite]Like I've always said if I wanted to date someone feminine I'd have a girlfriend, and I think this site bears out that truth. Hey, most of us are here on this site for a reason, to become healthier--physically, mentally and spiritually and in turn with the hope of attracting that same kind of man. If it's an attempt to take back our masculinity so be it. I refuse to buy into the gay stereotype of the overtly flamboyant, feminine guy--sorry Carson Kressley need not apply. I feel it does a disservice to us as gay men--the gay community is more diverse than that. That's what I liked about the movie "The Object of My Affection" it was about a regular guy who just happened to be sexually attracted to men, and I think it speaks to a lot of us.
    u

    ok so you say that the gay community is diverse yet you blatently blackball a cross-section of that diversity. Think before you type.[/quote]

    That's what got me off guard as well....
  • sandiegovince

    Posts: 111

    Mar 26, 2008 5:09 PM GMT
    Your hometown is a picture perfect postcard today. The weather is in the mid-70s. Bright sun--great beach weather. What the hell-why am I still on this computer?

    BTW, since this thread is all about preferences. Question to the posters--Do you feel it necessary to defend your choice of who you are sexually attractive to? I'll use myself as an example. Since I'm a man of color (Pacific Islander-Latin mix to be precise)I seem to be about 90% attracted to Caucasian men. For me, White men are HOT! But inevitably, someone will come along and slam me for it--calling me a narrow-minded "Potato Queen". Hey, its just a preference right? The same goes for not wishing to date a feminine man, an overweight man or a guy whose 20 years older than me. I have many friends who are of all ages, races, and body types. I just don't wish to date them. But when it comes to physical attraction why do I feel I must justify my choices? Anyone else feel the same way?
  • sandiegovince

    Posts: 111

    Mar 26, 2008 5:13 PM GMT
    Sheesh, I'm not blackballing anybody here-or disenfranchising a segment of the gay community. I was trying to communicate that society (the world in general) shouldn't view the gay communty as made of one stereotype. We're more diverse than that. And btw, I think I put a lot of thought into the things I type. icon_razz.gif
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    Mar 26, 2008 5:20 PM GMT
    sandiegovince saidYour hometown is a picture perfect postcard today. The weather is in the mid-70s. Bright sun--great beach weather. What the hell-why am I still on this computer?

    BTW, since this thread is all about preferences. Question to the posters--Do you feel it necessary to defend your choice of who you are sexually attractive to? I'll use myself as an example. Since I'm a man of color (Pacific Islander-Latin mix to be precise)I seem to be about 90% attracted to Caucasian men. For me, White men are HOT! But inevitably, someone will come along and slam me for it--calling me a narrow-minded "Potato Queen". Hey, its just a preference right? The same goes for not wishing to date a feminine man, an overweight man or a guy whose 20 years older than me. I have many friends who are of all ages, races, and body types. I just don't wish to date them. But when it comes to physical attraction why do I feel I must justify my choices? Anyone else feel the same way?


    Potato Queen??? I LOVE it!! HAHAHAHAHA!!! My only trait that I look for in a guy is SIMPLY, be comfortable with yourself and we'll start from there!

    GOD KNOWS I miss SoCal!!
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    Mar 26, 2008 5:25 PM GMT
    The only remaining question is "is ItsMyLife g0y or gEy". Don't you cowards ever give up?
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    Mar 26, 2008 5:32 PM GMT
    My assumption is... as guys come out younger and younger, they are taught and encouraged to be Proud of who they are. This is taken to an extreme where they overly emphasize the "gay" aspects of themselves. Only when they grow up and mature do they realize that is considered immature and over the top. Along with the growing up, when they enter the workforce, they begin to drift back towards a more normal behavior. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Mar 26, 2008 5:40 PM GMT
    CalLeanJock saidMy assumption is... as guys come out younger and younger, they are taught and encouraged to be Proud of who they are. This is taken to an extreme where they overly emphasize the "gay" aspects of themselves. Only when they grow up and mature do they realize that is considered immature and over the top. Along with the growing up, when they enter the workforce, they begin to drift back towards a more normal behavior. icon_biggrin.gif


    But why is it generally considered "normal'? I mean my "normal" behavior won't be "normal" behavior for the next!
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    Mar 26, 2008 5:40 PM GMT
    It's try what they say about what happens when you assume.
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    Mar 26, 2008 5:44 PM GMT
    McGay saidIt's try what they say about what happens when you assume.


    I suppose! It's just ruffles my feathers when we attempt SO hard to pigeon hold people to anything that's "normal" or into a category just because..... Not wanting to stir up "drama" just want to pick our brains and open all of us to a new or different perspective....
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 26, 2008 5:44 PM GMT
    ItsMyLife said What is the hugest market of gay porn the masculine type where it cops, though guys, army men, and really buff guys. yes there are ones for skinny twinks and other stuff but most gay guys want a man. Am I right? I mean almost all men here want a very tough masculine guy. There tired of boys, and dont want to be one. And the idea was that the popularity of those porn showed people true desires. I mean you rareley every see a porn with hot high fashion men coming in and having sex. It mostly big masculine guy fucking each others brains out.



    Well first of all, there is a difference between fantasy and reality and sometimes as gay men, we miss that when deciding what our ideal should be.

    Clearly porn is a well designed fantasy. I may have a hard time sharing my life with a leather daddy who wants to slap me around and chain me up and spit on me while having sex but it is a fun thought occasionally. Furthermore, it might be difficult to bring one of these "fantasies" home to meet the family. Dating a stylish man is different from a "runway gay". There is room for balance obviously, but this balanced image is not the main objective for porn. Porn is all very contrived.

    Masculinity is a learned trait based on culture. It is not something you are born. You are born with gender traits but not necessarily masculinity. This is why Straight acting would not always mean masculine because being str8 doesn't make you more butch by nature. The more time you are immersed in what is considered the cultural norm, the more likely you are to assimilate into that ideal.