Violence. Arizona Shootings

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    Jan 11, 2011 6:25 PM GMT
    I've read alot of posts about the shooting and listened to everyone on the news give their reasons for what happened, some people say it's Sarah Palin, some people say it's the failure of the mental health system, but honestly when it comes down to it in my eyes at least, it's a failure of everyone, of our society. Everyone so-called christian who lives by the gospel of hate, every homophobe, wife-beater, sexist, racist and just plain mean person is to blame. Why? Because children look up to adults and older siblings and they see all of these things portrayed and think well that's how it is, my mom, dad, brother, sister, do that so I should do that. Many people say things hurtful and hateful about other people, I see it on this website more than I would have hoped for considering that as gay men we've all been discriminated against. My only is hope is that people begin to realize that what you do in your everyday life has an effect on not only your life but everyone's life. Hopefully at least one person will read this and realize that you know maybe I shouldn't tell that racist joke, or maybe I shouldn't laugh at someone who's losing their battle with obesity, or maybe I shouldn't get so heated in a political debate that I say something I shouldn't.

    Something I do a lot more of is to really think before I speak, If something crosses my mind that would be hurful to someone if said outloud I think how would I feel, and I realize that I do know how it would feel to be on the receiving end and it stops me dead in my tracks and instead I think of a compliment or something nice I can say instead.
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    Jan 11, 2011 6:40 PM GMT
    Well said, friend, and THANK YOU! Food for thought!icon_biggrin.gif
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Jan 11, 2011 6:45 PM GMT
    Oh yeah, yet another person who wants to blame anyone and anything other than the 22 year old nutjob who pulled the trigger icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jan 11, 2011 7:46 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidOh yeah, yet another person who wants to blame anyone and anything other than the 22 year old nutjob who pulled the trigger icon_rolleyes.gif


    I should have specified in the first post that I'm not saying he isn't to blame, he is to blame because in the end he pulled the trigger, he shot those people and hopefully he will be properly punished as the state of Arizona sees fit. I'm just saying that hate spreads hate, and maybe we should realize what we're saying before we say it. I don't know if that man was mentally ill, but there are people who are mentally ill who will do terrible things to other people because of things they hear other people say. In the end the main point of my post is for people to step back, think before they speak and act and realize that life is simply too short to spread anything but love.
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    Jan 11, 2011 9:38 PM GMT
    timetochange said
    CuriousJockAZ saidOh yeah, yet another person who wants to blame anyone and anything other than the 22 year old nutjob who pulled the trigger icon_rolleyes.gif


    I should have specified in the first post that I'm not saying he isn't to blame, he is to blame because in the end he pulled the trigger, he shot those people and hopefully he will be properly punished as the state of Arizona sees fit. I'm just saying that hate spreads hate, and maybe we should realize what we're saying before we say it. I don't know if that man was mentally ill, but there are people who are mentally ill who will do terrible things to other people because of things they hear other people say. In the end the main point of my post is for people to step back, think before they speak and act and realize that life is simply too short to spread anything but love.



    You'll find guys on here that think everyone's freedom of speech, no matter how powerful the position that person holds, should come with no culpability or consequences.

    -Doug

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    Jan 11, 2011 9:56 PM GMT
    meninlove saidYou'll find guys on here that think everyone's freedom of speech, no matter how powerful the position that person holds, should come with no culpability or consequences.

    -Doug


    And you'll find those who don't believe that those commit the crime should be the ones responsible for them and that we should not take responsibility for our own actions. Those for whom the blame lies solely with those they disagree with, those who seize upon tragic events in an attempt for political advantage. Yes, it does take all kinds.

    Ironically, note that Loughner was anti-war and vehemently anti religion and Christianity in his posted rantings:
    http://volokh.com/2011/01/10/jared-loughners-anti-war-views/

    While I can agree with the assertion we could all do with more hope and kindness, tolerance and acceptance in our lives, this has no bearing whatsoever with the shooting. Bad things sometimes do happen to good people. Loughner was apparently obsessed with Gifford at least as far back as 2007. To make political hay of this is simply opportunistic gibberish.
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    Jan 11, 2011 9:58 PM GMT
    Look, another Arizona thread!

    I blame the KILLER because of a clear degeneration of his neural wiring. 20 years into the future fMRI and other neural scans will show this. He would have killed no matter what.
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    Jan 11, 2011 10:05 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    meninlove saidYou'll find guys on here that think everyone's freedom of speech, no matter how powerful the position that person holds, should come with no culpability or consequences.

    -Doug


    And you'll find those who don't believe that those commit the crime should be the ones responsible for them and that we should not take responsibility for our own actions. Those for whom the blame lies solely with those they disagree with, those who seize upon tragic events in an attempt for political advantage. Yes, it does take all kinds.

    Ironically, note that Loughner was anti-war and vehemently anti religion and Christianity in his posted rantings:
    http://volokh.com/2011/01/10/jared-loughners-anti-war-views/

    While I can agree with the assertion we could all do with more hope and kindness, tolerance and acceptance in our lives, this has no bearing whatsoever with the shooting. Bad things sometimes do happen to good people. Loughner was apparently obsessed with Gifford at least as far back as 2007. To make political hay of this is simply opportunistic gibberish.


    Riddler, the young man is mentally ill. Yes we know he did the shooting, lol.
    There are many mentally ill people, and advertising works. Those are two facts that you can string together any way you like. I don't know how you were raised but we were raised to mind our manners, especially in a position of public office. All political parties hands are dirty, and bloody. Some in more degrees than others, but all are tainted. Did you see my reply on the other topic about Cretien in 1993?

    -Doug
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    Jan 11, 2011 10:11 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidOh yeah, yet another person who wants to blame anyone and anything other than the 22 year old nutjob who pulled the trigger icon_rolleyes.gif

    Except, who encouraged that 22-year-old nutjob mental case to pull the trigger? That's the thing you right-wingers are trying to evade,

    According to you he did it in a vacuum. He did it all by himself. He wasn't influenced in any way by right-wing hate rhetoric about targeting Democratic politicians, about "reloading" as Sarah Palin declared, who had bullseye targets placed on them on right-wing web sites. Hell, right here in Florida my own Democratic Congressional Representative had her intials put on a firing range target that Republicans shot at during a fundraiser!

    Well, yah know, you've been talking for some time about taking "Second Amendment" remedies against your opponents (meaning shooting them).

    And then somebody does what you say.

    "Oh, no, no, no, I meant, I meant..."

    Yeah, we know what you meant. You said it, now live with it.

    You really can't have it both ways, you know.
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    Jan 11, 2011 10:16 PM GMT
    http://www.snowspotmedia.com/2011/01/09/flashback-conservative-radio-host-says-if-ballots-wont-work-bullets-will-video/

    "If ballots don't work, bullets will."

    Nope....nothing wrong with saying shit like that, right?icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jan 11, 2011 10:16 PM GMT
    meninlove saidRiddler, the young man is mentally ill. Yes we know he did the shooting, lol.
    There are many mentally ill people, and advertising works. Those are two facts that you can string together any way you like. I don't know how you were raised but we were raised to mind our manners, especially in a position of public office. All political parties hands are dirty, and bloody. Some in more degrees than others, but all are tainted. Did you see my reply on the other topic about Cretien in 1993?

    -Doug


    Nope I hadn't - but just did. Chretien was definitely a colorful man. Yes, the Ad was in poor taste but also not a call to violence. There are a lot of people on both the left and right who would joke saying that it was sad we had a PM who spoke neither official language.

    As for advertising - it only works when there is a message that people are receptive to. This is proven time and time again in political campaigning where you can spend as much as you want - it doesn't mean it will make a difference. To tie comments made by those on the right in this case, when it could just as easily have been comments from the left who were unhappy with how moderate Giffords was (she apparently only voted with the Democrats 40% of the time) - and you've by now seen some of the comments on the left wing blogs.

    What it's come down to though really, is liberals fantasizing that this man was motivated by their political opposition as anyone can see the blame that has been cast on the right. How many times even here have we seen posters say 'we don't have proof yet but...' and then go on to blame Sarah Palin. Call for less politicization, fine. Call for more politeness, fine. But don't say that this would have helped. You have no evidence of this - and quite to the contrary the evidence appears to support the view he was a lunatic with views that were quite extreme mostly left (religion and anti-war) but some right of center.
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    Jan 11, 2011 10:22 PM GMT
    OtterJoq saidhttp://www.snowspotmedia.com/2011/01/09/flashback-conservative-radio-host-says-if-ballots-wont-work-bullets-will-video/

    "If ballots don't work, bullets will."

    Nope....nothing wrong with saying shit like that, right?icon_rolleyes.gif


    Politics in Florida. I'm sorry, did I miss how Loughner was influenced by conservative talk show hosts in Florida? Would that also be like how voted out Rep. Kanjorski (D, PA) said: "Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him [Rick Scott, the Republican candidate for Florida governor] and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he's running for governor of Florida. He's a millionaire and a billionaire. He's no hero. He's a damn crook. It's just we don't prosecute big crooks."

    A man, I might add that the Democrats continued to support and who now farcically gets an editorial in the NYT appealing for calmer political discourse? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/opinion/11Kanjorski.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

    What a short memory and attention span you must have.
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    Jan 11, 2011 10:32 PM GMT
    riddler said, "But don't say that this would have helped. You have no evidence of this."

    Yes, I do. Talk to some mental health professionals, as I did before posting.

    Incitement and agitation. All political parties' reps do it whenever they can get away with it. Some can get away with it more than others.

    -Doug
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14390

    Jan 11, 2011 10:35 PM GMT
    This 22 year old killer grew up in a suburban, middle class family according to news sources. This is just more valid proof that suburbia is definitely not the innocent, crime free part of a metropolis like it has been falsely percieved for years. You have killers, lunatics, drug dealers, and ecentric weirdos living in the suburbs. It is not just the inner city neighborhoods that ring a downtown area that have troubled people and scumbags. The suburbs are no damn better. Lets not just blame the Tea Baggers and Sarah Palin for this violent incident. Lets put a large portion of the blame on the violence in the movies, on television, and in the music kids listen to these days. There is a lot of room to equally distribute the blame for this tragic, senseless violence.
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    Jan 11, 2011 10:38 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidThis 22 year old killer grew up in a suburban, middle class family according to news sources. This is just more valid proof that suburbia is definitely not the innocent, crime free part of a metropolis like it has been falsely percieved for years. You have killers, lunatics, drug dealers, and ecentric weirdos living in the suburbs. It is not just the inner city neighborhoods that ring a downtown area that have troubled people and scumbags. The suburbs are no damn better. Lets not just blame the Tea Baggers and Sarah Palin for this violent incident. Lets put a large portion of the blame on the violence in the movies, on television, and in the music kids listen to these days. There is a lot of room to equally distribute the blame for this tragic, senseless violence.


    loll, roadbikebob, I wonder if any politician would enjoy being compared to fictional entertainment, a movie or a vid game. Something tells me they want to be taken seriously, yes?

    -Doug

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    Jan 11, 2011 11:05 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidThis 22 year old killer grew up in a suburban, middle class family according to news sources. This is just more valid proof that suburbia is definitely not the innocent, crime free part of a metropolis like it has been falsely percieved for years. You have killers, lunatics, drug dealers, and ecentric weirdos living in the suburbs. It is not just the inner city neighborhoods that ring a downtown area that have troubled people and scumbags. The suburbs are no damn better. Lets not just blame the Tea Baggers and Sarah Palin for this violent incident. Lets put a large portion of the blame on the violence in the movies, on television, and in the music kids listen to these days. There is a lot of room to equally distribute the blame for this tragic, senseless violence.


    I agree with you and meninlove, if children and youth are constantly living surrounded by violence and hints of it even by political leaders then the violence becomes normal and doing something violent isn't such a big stretch to do on their own, expecially if they're troubled or mentally unstable.

    people who say what we listen to, read or watch has no affects on a person haven't raised any children is all I can say, or they're sure ignoring whats right in front of their eyes everyday in dealing with children. Teaching at its base has repetition, repeat any action and it becomes normal, teach violence and violence will be the result. No, I don't believe Palin cause this nut to pull the trigger, but Palin isn't helping by her Rhetoric, neither are the rest of them loudmouths and their cheap rhetoric, no mater from the right or the left.
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    Jan 11, 2011 11:19 PM GMT
    meninlove said riddler said, "But don't say that this would have helped. You have no evidence of this."

    Yes, I do. Talk to some mental health professionals, as I did before posting.

    Incitement and agitation. All political parties' reps do it whenever they can get away with it. Some can get away with it more than others.

    -Doug

    You are being a party to a clear attempt by the left to cover its tracks. Within minutes of the shooting, left wing pundits were proclaiming responsibility lay with Sarah Palin, Tea Party, Fox News, Conservative Talk Radio. When the facts came out and those charges were found to be bogus, the left sought cover by making it a general discussion of civility and hate rhetoric, making a big deal of everything a conservative leader said, and completely ignoring the similar rhetoric from Obama during the campaign and even recently to Latino group knowing who your enemies are.

    In another thread you referred to hate speech having consequences. I asked you there to identify specific hate speech from a major, national conservative leader or media personality (O'Reilly, Hannity, Back, Limbaugh). If something specific were said, should not be hard to find it as MediaMatters and other left-wing organizations are monitoring conservatives 24/7.
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    Jan 11, 2011 11:21 PM GMT
    socal said, " You are being a party to a clear attempt by the left to cover its tracks."

    ..and you're completely wrong.

    -Doug
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    Jan 12, 2011 12:00 AM GMT
    Has anyone brought this up:

    Lawyers and school staff noticed he was insane enough to expel him and not let him back until he went through mental examination. Removing a positive stimulus from his life doesn't make him get better; it just reinforces his mental instability by removing him from society more.

    There was no follow up to HELP him. He was just CUT OFF from society. There's another push towards him killing. People cutting him off but not trying to help him get better. All effort was to keep him from harming other people. But was there any attempt to keep him from harming people in the future? Nope.

    What I just said isn't a Republican vs Democratic thing btw.
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    Jan 12, 2011 12:02 AM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidThis 22 year old killer grew up in a suburban, middle class family according to news sources. This is just more valid proof that suburbia is definitely not the innocent, crime free part of a metropolis like it has been falsely percieved for years. You have killers, lunatics, drug dealers, and ecentric weirdos living in the suburbs. It is not just the inner city neighborhoods that ring a downtown area that have troubled people and scumbags. The suburbs are no damn better. Lets not just blame the Tea Baggers and Sarah Palin for this violent incident. Lets put a large portion of the blame on the violence in the movies, on television, and in the music kids listen to these days. There is a lot of room to equally distribute the blame for this tragic, senseless violence.

    Who on RJ was arguing that suburbia is better than city life in the first place?
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14390

    Jan 15, 2011 6:07 PM GMT
    JB82, Obviously you have missed the valid point I was trying to make about where this seriously disturbed young man came from. Suburbia or most of suburbia has been and still is percieved as largely problem free and perfectly safe. But this killer being brought up in a supposedly safe and stable middle class suburb has helped implode what remains of that fictitious belief that the suburbs are better than the central cities. But the media and popular belief still unfortunately supports "the suburbs are perfectly safe" myth. We all know that the suburbs have more than their fair share of crime and other problems. It is just hidden and not as out in the wide open. The suburbs are definitely not utopia that is for sure.
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    Jan 15, 2011 6:23 PM GMT
    timetochange saidI've read alot of posts about the shooting and listened to everyone on the news give their reasons for what happened, some people say it's Sarah Palin, some people say it's the failure of the mental health system, but honestly when it comes down to it in my eyes at least, it's a failure of everyone, of our society. Everyone so-called christian who lives by the gospel of hate, every homophobe, wife-beater, sexist, racist and just plain mean person is to blame. Why? Because children look up to adults and older siblings and they see all of these things portrayed and think well that's how it is, my mom, dad, brother, sister, do that so I should do that. Many people say things hurtful and hateful about other people, I see it on this website more than I would have hoped for considering that as gay men we've all been discriminated against. My only is hope is that people begin to realize that what you do in your everyday life has an effect on not only your life but everyone's life. Hopefully at least one person will read this and realize that you know maybe I shouldn't tell that racist joke, or maybe I shouldn't laugh at someone who's losing their battle with obesity, or maybe I shouldn't get so heated in a political debate that I say something I shouldn't.

    Something I do a lot more of is to really think before I speak, If something crosses my mind that would be hurful to someone if said outloud I think how would I feel, and I realize that I do know how it would feel to be on the receiving end and it stops me dead in my tracks and instead I think of a compliment or something nice I can say instead.


    Good for you young man !!! your an adult in the crowd, you'll hear all the excuses and defenses and on and on, but your right. All sides need to remember that we are adults, put aside the negative rhetoric, the rediculous mean spirited signs and use some civility, CHILDREN ARE WATCHING and they grow up to be what they see. We're reaping the results in the murders of this kind. To those defenders of the status quo, yes the idiot is the one who pulled the trigger, but everything the man saw, read and experienced leads up to this. Just think about it.
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    Jan 15, 2011 6:33 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    meninlove said riddler said, "But don't say that this would have helped. You have no evidence of this."

    Yes, I do. Talk to some mental health professionals, as I did before posting.

    Incitement and agitation. All political parties' reps do it whenever they can get away with it. Some can get away with it more than others.

    -Doug

    You are being a party to a clear attempt by the left to cover its tracks. Within minutes of the shooting, left wing pundits were proclaiming responsibility lay with Sarah Palin, Tea Party, Fox News, Conservative Talk Radio. When the facts came out and those charges were found to be bogus, the left sought cover by making it a general discussion of civility and hate rhetoric, making a big deal of everything a conservative leader said, and completely ignoring the similar rhetoric from Obama during the campaign and even recently to Latino group knowing who your enemies are.

    In another thread you referred to hate speech having consequences. I asked you there to identify specific hate speech from a major, national conservative leader or media personality (O'Reilly, Hannity, Back, Limbaugh). If something specific were said, should not be hard to find it as MediaMatters and other left-wing organizations are monitoring conservatives 24/7.



    Why is it so hard for you to just get the point !!! No !!!! nobody but the idiot pulled the trigger, but all the negative rhetoric, references to violence, Government is bad, socialists Fascists and on and on does have an effect and adds to the problems of the mentally unsound among our midst. Therefore the negative rhetoric needs to be toned down. By the way, how much time do you spend listening to those on your list above ? that negative stuff they put out is bad for your view of life and the world around you.