Let's Have a Constructive Conversation: What can we do to prevent future incidents like in Arizona?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 11, 2011 7:36 PM GMT
    I'm serious. We've beaten this issue into the ground on multiple threads with both sides blaming the other. So what can we do to constructively to change the climate in our country, to prevent the mentally ill from securing guns, and to protect not only our public servants but those who wish to engage with them in open forums?

    We have seem some leadership on both sides but not enough. Olbermann admitted to his own past overheated rhetoric and pledged to tone it down including restructuring or possibly getting rid of his "Worst Persons" segment. Roger Ailes apparently sent a memo to Fox News pundits telling them to tone it down. So there's a starting point on both sides.

    So without blaming or becoming defensive over facts, I'd really like to hear left, moderate and right wing ideas for preventing future mass shootings.
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    Jan 11, 2011 7:48 PM GMT
    Perhaps nothing. Only thing I can think of is some way to heighten awareness about gunshops selling guns to people who may appear in any way to be mentally unstable.

    I'm leery of regulation but if one needs a gun license in every state (I'm not even sure if someone does?) then they should pass a mental-stability test with a psychiatrist present or something. After all, everyone needs to prove a certain capability to drive. It may not solve much, but it might.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19119

    Jan 11, 2011 7:49 PM GMT
    Nothing -- unless you want to lock-up all the people who even LOOK crazy. Shit happens. There are always going to be twisted mentally unstable types who do terrible things. It's been happening since the beginning of time, and I suspect it will keep happening until the end of time.
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    Jan 11, 2011 8:07 PM GMT
    Catch and treat mental illness early.

    We desperately need a public campaign such as those that equate "time is muscle" for heart attacks and "time is brain" for strokes. Time IS brain in another sense: some studies suggest that the longer mental illness is undetected, the less chance of remission even when it's treated.

    We also need to deal with the stigma of mental illness. Who knows, the parents might have refrained from getting their kid to a doctor because of shame.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 11, 2011 8:12 PM GMT
    Minimally, the following would have prevented this or minimized the number of dead and wounded:

    1) Background checks for firearm purchases. Loughner had a record for drug possession which would have prevented him from purchasing a gun, if the seller had done his or her homework.

    2) Outlawing sale of high-capacity magazines (many law enforcement officials have said that had Loughner had regular mags, he might have been subdued quickly)

    3) Provide legislators with secret service protection during public events

    4) Increase public awareness of mental illness in general and schizoaffective disorders and provide more funding for treatment.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 11, 2011 8:56 PM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidCatch and treat mental illness early.

    We desperately need a public campaign such as those that equate "time is muscle" for heart attacks and "time is brain" for strokes. Time IS brain in another sense: some studies suggest that the longer mental illness is undetected, the less chance of remission even when it's treated.

    We also need to deal with the stigma of mental illness. Who knows, the parents might have refrained from getting their kid to a doctor because of shame.


    But some times the mental illnesses of individuals aren't clear cut. It may be more "complicated" than what is perceived. Like I said, perhaps in order to get the license one must pass a certain mental capability test?
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    Jan 11, 2011 9:03 PM GMT
    Organized schizophrenics can pass any test you design. If anything, schizophrenics can be the smartest guys around (remember that movie about John Nash, the schizophrenic mathematician?--
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash,_Jr.Nash reports that he was always taken to hospitals against his will, and only temporarily renounced his "dream-like delusional hypotheses" after being in a hospital long enough to decide to superficially conform, behave normally or experience "enforced rationality". Only gradually on his own did he "intellectually reject" some of the "delusionally influenced" and "politically-oriented" thinking as a waste of effort. However, by 1995, he felt that although he was "thinking rationally again in the style that is characteristic of scientists," he felt more limited.


    Just as you said, there's a fine line between what sane and insane. It might be a little unreasonable have psychiatrists shoulder the burden of who is sane enough to carry a gun (and the legal ramifications are mind-boggling).

    Let's allow the public to first recognize the problem of undiagnosed mental illness before tying it with the much more intractable political problem of gun regulation.


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 11, 2011 9:12 PM GMT
    Reasonable gun laws would help, but the unreasonable NRA has too much money for the laws to be enacted.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 11, 2011 9:21 PM GMT
    Ok, I'll add something - Relook at privacy laws. It was reported that the community college could not lawfully advise his family of their concerns about his mental condition. In a broader context, also read, did not cross check, that in the past it was easier to get someone involuntarily committed to an institution for a mental examination. Obviously there are trade-offs, but we may have gone so far over towards protecting individual rights that we are compromising safety.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 11, 2011 9:25 PM GMT
    There's not a lot that can be done when a crazy person acts out. It just happens.

    Yes, we can tone down the rhetoric, and it may keep a few folks from going over the age, but, if you're crazy, you're crazy.

    More laws / gun control are stupid. Anyone who wants a gun will get one, inside the law, or not. Same goes with clips, pot, etc. If someone wants something, they'll get it. It's naive to think that laws will make any difference. We know from history, and the current judicial system, that prohibition doesn't work, and only creates a lawless, underground, market.
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    Jan 11, 2011 9:30 PM GMT
    Chucky, that's not a very helpful attitude. To quote a Nazarene, "You'll always have the poor with you." That statement always bothered me. Does that mean we should not try to do something about it?

    Not all schizophrenics are violent. Of those that are, if you can treat them early on, maybe fewer of them will decompensate enough to buy a gun and shoot people.
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    Jan 11, 2011 10:00 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidNothing.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3274

    Jan 12, 2011 4:11 AM GMT
    Congressman Kings proposal to ban Firearms 1000 feet from selected elected officials is a good idea.

    We should not bring a gun if our opponent brings a knife to an event, literally.

    If it means more police and security, that will protect these events or officials so be it. ( JOBS)

    We also have a civic duty to report individuals like this guy and the VIRGINIA TECH shooter.

    Colleges should be required if receiving AIDE to train staff to recognize mental illness .
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    Jan 12, 2011 4:46 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidNothing.

    mocktwinkie saidPerhaps nothing.

    CuriousJockAZ saidNothing



    Wow! What a great attitude..
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19119

    Jan 12, 2011 4:58 AM GMT
    TropicalMark said
    southbeach1500 saidNothing.

    mocktwinkie saidPerhaps nothing.

    CuriousJockAZ saidNothing



    Wow! What a great attitude..



    We are just being realistic. I didn't see YOU contributing any brilliant ideas to the thread -- just criticism. Who has the attitude problem?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 12, 2011 4:58 AM GMT
    musclmed saidCongressman Kings proposal to ban Firearms 1000 feet from selected elected officials is a good idea.

    We should not bring a gun if our opponent brings a knife to an event, literally.

    If it means more police and security, that will protect these events or officials so be it. ( JOBS)

    We also have a civic duty to report individuals like this guy and the VIRGINIA TECH shooter.

    Colleges should be required if receiving AIDE to train staff to recognize mental illness .


    Hey! We agree (sort of) on something. icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 12, 2011 5:06 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    TropicalMark said
    southbeach1500 saidNothing.

    mocktwinkie saidPerhaps nothing.

    CuriousJockAZ saidNothing



    Wow! What a great attitude..



    We are just being realistic. I didn't see YOU contributing any brilliant ideas to the thread -- just criticism. Who has the attitude problem?
    I haven't 'contributed' any ideas yet because I'm investigating possibilities..
    ALOT better attitude than "nothing". Defeatist attitudes suck.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19119

    Jan 12, 2011 5:32 AM GMT
    TropicalMark said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    TropicalMark said
    southbeach1500 saidNothing.

    mocktwinkie saidPerhaps nothing.

    CuriousJockAZ saidNothing



    Wow! What a great attitude..



    We are just being realistic. I didn't see YOU contributing any brilliant ideas to the thread -- just criticism. Who has the attitude problem?
    I haven't 'contributed' any ideas yet because I'm investigating possibilities..
    ALOT better attitude than "nothing". Defeatist attitudes suck.



    Oh, I see, well we will all wait here with baited breath until you bare the fruits of your research. I'm sure it will be something riveting and groundbreaking
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 12, 2011 5:35 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    TropicalMark said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    TropicalMark said
    southbeach1500 saidNothing.

    mocktwinkie saidPerhaps nothing.

    CuriousJockAZ saidNothing



    Wow! What a great attitude..



    We are just being realistic. I didn't see YOU contributing any brilliant ideas to the thread -- just criticism. Who has the attitude problem?
    I haven't 'contributed' any ideas yet because I'm investigating possibilities..
    ALOT better attitude than "nothing". Defeatist attitudes suck.



    Oh, I see, well we will all wait here with baited breath until you bare the fruits of your research. I'm sure it will be something riveting and groundbreaking

    Notice how they didn't want to comment on my points.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 12, 2011 5:41 AM GMT
    Ok Socal I'll comment:

    "Obviously there are trade-offs, but we may have gone so far over towards protecting individual rights that we are compromising safety."

    There have been a number of documentaries (US) made that show what happens when this ability to willy nilly commit someone is abused. That's a horror all of its own. This is occurring in a state where funding for mental health has been cut.

    -Doug
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 12, 2011 5:44 AM GMT
    meninlove said Ok Socal I'll comment:

    "Obviously there are trade-offs, but we may have gone so far over towards protecting individual rights that we are compromising safety."

    There have been a number of documentaries (US) made that show what happens when this ability to willy nilly commit someone is abused. That's a horror all of its own. This is occurring in a state where funding for mental health has been cut.

    -Doug

    There would have to be careful controls, such as getting a county mental health department to make a recommendation followed by a court order.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 12, 2011 5:51 AM GMT
    Only thing you can do is research and strengthen the knowledge of psychology, sociology, and neuroscience.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 12, 2011 6:27 AM GMT


    The first step might be to get the facts in, and have some perspective before actually trying to do anything.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 12, 2011 6:35 AM GMT
    Some facts are in, including his purchase of a Glock with an extended magazine.

    It's time for gun control laws to be reinstated, including the assault weapons ban which made the extended magazines illegal.
  • Mepark

    Posts: 806

    Jan 12, 2011 6:35 AM GMT
    Until we find a long term solution, which would be extremely difficult, all politicians should be accompanied with presidential type security when at public events.