Lebanon 101: Why Hezbollah hates the Hariri tribunal (UN STL).

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    Jan 14, 2011 3:43 AM GMT
    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/0113/Lebanon-101-Why-Hezbollah-hates-the-Hariri-tribunal/Who-is-Rafik-Hariri

    The collapse of Lebanon's coalition government has pushed the country, once again, to the brink of upheaval. The heavily-armed Hezbollah is furious that Prime Minister Saad Hariri is coperating with a United Nations tribunal investigating the assassination of his father Rafik. Here's what the tribunal is all about, and why Hezbollah opposes it:

    Who is Rafik Hariri?

    Rafik Hariri was the Lebanese prime minister from 1992 to 1998 and 2000 to 2004. He was assassinated in a February 2005 bombing that also killed 22 others.

    Hariri, a Sunni Muslim with close ties to Saudi Arabia, was credited with getting Lebanon back on its feet after a devastating civil war. His humble beginnings – he came from a poor family and grew up in a southern port city – and lack of political or military connections were attractive to many when he first became prime minister.

    Following the civil war, he embarked on significant reconstruction and development efforts. He opposed Syrian involvement in Lebanese politics, and pressure from Syria is believed to be a key factor behind his 2004 resignation.

    Who is investigating Hariri's assassination?

    In December 2005, the Lebanese government requested that the United Nations conduct an international investigation to try those who were allegedly responsible for Hariri’s death. In response, the UN Special Tribunal for Lebanon was established. It includes both Lebanese and international judges, as well as an international prosecutor, and was formally established in June 2007. It officially opened in March 2009 and is based in The Hague.

    Who is suspected in the assassination?

    Syria was initially the key suspect. Hariri had resisted Syria's heavy involvement in Lebanese affairs, leading to a deterioration of ties between him and Damascus in the months before his assassination. The tribunal thought that Syria had orchestrated the spectacular bombing to keep the upper hand over anti-Syrian politicians.

    But investigators appeared to put the Syria file on the back burner in 2009 and began pursuing Hezbollah as more evidence emerged. The tribunal’s first indictments are widely expected to implicate Hezbollah members, though it has not given up on pursuing Syria.

    Both Syria and Hezbollah have denied any involvement in the assassination.

    Hezbollah has instead accused Israel of orchestrating the attack, based on confessions from alleged Lebanese spies that they were told by Israel to track Hariri’s movements and footage from Israeli reconnaissance drones that followed routes that Hariri's motorcade would take just before he was assassinated.

    Why does Hezbollah oppose the tribunal?

    Hezbollah insists that it wasn’t involved in the Hariri assassination and maintains that the tribunal is a “political tool wielded by the West” to put pressure on Hezbollah (the US is a staunch supporter of the tribunal). It has attempted to undermine the tribunal by portraying its members as motivated to undermine Hezbollah rather than to bring justice to those responsible for Hariri’s death.

    Hezbollah has pressured Prime Minister Saad Hariri to end Lebanon's participation in the tribunal but he has refused to back down. In protest, Hezbollah and its allies left the government Jan. 11, causing it to collapse.

    Why is the tribunal so important to those who support it?

    Lebanon has long had a culture of impunity for political violence and assassinations have been common there. The UN tribunal is one of the first efforts at an independent investigation into a political assassination in the region.

    According to a White House statement, President Obama emphasized the importance of the tribunal's work during his meeting with Prime Minister Saad Hariri on Jan. 11:

    During their meeting, the President stressed the importance of the work of the Special Tribunal for Lebanon as a means to help end the era of political assassinations with impunity in Lebanon. The President and Prime Minister specifically discussed united efforts with France, Saudi Arabia, and other key international and regional actors to maintain calm in Lebanon and ensure that the work of the Tribunal continues unimpeded by third parties.

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    Jan 14, 2011 3:46 AM GMT
    Excerpts from:
    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/2011112151356430829.html

    The standoff between al-Hariri's camp and Hezbollah over the UN tribunal has paralysed the government for months and sparked concerns of sectarian violence similar to the one that brought the country close to civil war in May 2008.

    The White House... accused Hezbollah of acting out of "fear" and commended Hariri "for his steadfast leadership and efforts to reach peace, stability, and consensus in Lebanon under difficult circumstances".

    Reacting to the Hezbollah withdrawal, Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, said the tribunal must continue with its work so that justice can be served.

    "We view what happened today as a transparent effort by those forces inside Lebanon, as well as interests outside Lebanon, to subvert justice and undermine Lebanon's stability and progress," Clinton told a news conference in Doha, Qatar, where she was attending a meeting of regional leaders.

    "This is a matter that should be allowed to proceed as previously agreed to. This is not only about the tragic assassination of former Prime Minister Hariri, but many other people died and were injured as well," Clinton said.
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    Jan 14, 2011 3:47 AM GMT
    AYYYYYYE GOOOOOOD !!!! More of your teaching ZIONIST FANATIC PROPAGANDA !!!!


    You haven't answered the questions about which ZIONZIT FANATIC SECT you belong to yet ?? If you cannot answer that, what are you starting more of this crap for ?? When are you moving to one of your ZIONIST FANATIC settlements ??
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    Jan 14, 2011 5:19 AM GMT
    Yep Israel was behind this.

    Same thing happen in Iran:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/11/iran-10-arrested-scientist-death-israel
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    Jan 14, 2011 6:52 AM GMT
    realifedad said AYYYYYYE GOOOOOOD !!!! More of your teaching ZIONIST FANATIC PROPAGANDA !!!!


    Wait what? This has to do with Lebanon. Wait nevermind. I'll stay out of it before everyone starting their period on my face again.
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    Jan 14, 2011 7:40 AM GMT
    Not surprisingly, the usual suspects - again - are caught with "Israel on the brain".

    Neither of the two articles I quoted mention Israel other than reporting Hizbullah's accusation.

    Of course, it's hard to overlook the argument from contradicting premises.
    Back in August we had this spam propaganda yellow journalism topic:

    Israeli Spies Operating in Lebanon Caught; May Implicate Israel in Hariri Assassination
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1063490

    Yet now we get more of the usual confusion:

    pouncer> the tribunal previously published manifold reams of prima facie evidence implicating Syria - not just implicating Syria but actually naming names, giving dates, showing tapes, airing confessions, drawing 'timelines'

    After which, of course, he attempts to implicate Israel.

    Ignoring that Hizbullah takes its orders from Damascus (Syria) and Teheran (Iran).


    pouncer> 'assassination' is Israel's MO

    Targeted killing of terrorists (which you just told us is acceptable)? Yes.
    Of bona fide politicians? No.

    Indeed, the ignorant may want to look up the etymology of the word.

    And this article:
    http://www.yalibnan.com/2010/12/29/report-syria-killed-more-than-30-lebanese-leaders


    Then there's this idiotic analysis:

    pouncer> What you ultimately have to ask yourself is this: who stood most to gain out of the Hariri assassination? Syria? Not likely - the killing led directly to the Cedar Revolution.

    The Cedar Revolution could hardly be anticipated and this red herring is used to avoid answering the question posed. Hariri was anti-Syrian and Syria and its Hizbullah side-kick stood the most to gain. The Cedar Revolution was the result of the assassination unexpectedly backfiring on the perpetrators.
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    Jan 14, 2011 3:30 PM GMT
    Well Jake the ZIONIST FANATIC as mentioned so eloquently above, has one thing on his brain and that is ISRAEL, you know the CAUSE that C4 claims to be his LABOR OF LOVE. so here we have it THE FANATIC never strays far from his favorite subject. RATIONALISING every ZIONIST action as being always right !!!

    So JOIN US JAKE, I don't think you really want to be seen as defending taking homes and property from Palestinians for C4's favorite settlements that he FANATICALLY keeps defending as RIGHT because after all, everything the ZIONIST FANATICS DO IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

    Ceaserea4, when are you moving to one of your favorite settlements ? I hope its soon !!!
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    Jan 14, 2011 4:20 PM GMT
    Take a look at the site "GLOBAL RESEARCH" under The Collapse of the Lebanon Government" for a look at why our resident ZIONIST FANATIC Ceaserea4 posted this his latest ZIONIST PROPAGANDA.

    As usual, the ZIONIST FANATICS in the middle east are busy interfering for the cause and of course the US, in this case Ms Clinton was right there working with the ZIONISTS to help facilitate their efforts.

    IT WOULD BE REAL INTERESTING TO HAVE C4 ANSWER THE QUESTION AS TO WHAT FANATICAL BRANCH OR SECT OF ZIONISTS HE BELONGS TO ? I THINK HE'S AFRAID TO ANSWER !!!!
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    Jan 14, 2011 8:37 PM GMT
    pouncer> The popular uprising against the political assassination of probably Lebanon's most beloved ever prime minister "could hardly be anticipated"?

    There was no such "uprising" against Syria after any of its other political assassinations of beloved Lebanese leaders. Had Assad Sr. still been alive, such a protest would have been mowed down much like Tianenmen Square or the 15,000-60,000 killed in Hama, Syria.


    Is anyone surprised that pouncer, RJ's apologist and defender of Islamist terrorist groups, attempts to twist blame away from Hizbullah/Syria and fault Israel?

    p1> the tribunal previously published manifold reams of prima facie evidence implicating Syria - not just implicating Syria but actually naming names, giving dates, showing tapes, airing confessions, drawing 'timelines'

    p2> [it's not Hizbullah, it could be Israel. Look at Israel. What about Israel. Israel. Israel. I can't think clearly the minute someone says Israel. I've got Israel on the brain because I hate anything and everything Jewish. Israel. Yeah, forget Syria and it's Hizbullah sidekick or what I said just above and - as always - blame Jews/Israel.]


    It's unfortunate that the Israel haters have hijacked yet another forum.
    (As if there aren't enough other topics in which they can smear, demonize and war-monger.)


    Anyone have any opinions why Hizbullah (which not only was involved but likely pulled the trigger) is going to take the fall while its Syrian master is let off the hook?
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    Jan 14, 2011 10:59 PM GMT
    Ok dude, I don't like to get involved much in politics but here are some thoughts.

    First, Daniel Bellemare has done so many false movesduring his time as a prosecutor for this tribunal that it shows he is not an independent and honest judge.

    The tribunal kept 4 high military lebanese pro-syrian officers in jail for 3 years to discover at the end that they're not implicated in the assassination.

    A plethora of false witnesses appeared and disappeared, all fabricated by the so called freedom supporters in Lebanon. Once, they say Iran did it, once they say islamists did it, then Syria did it and now Hezbollah did it.

    I mean, if you analyze it logically, who will benefit the most from the internal turmoil inside Lebanon if Hezbollah is accused of the assasination?

    Not Syria, Not Iran, not any Lebanese party. Israel will.

    I mean seriously dude, your want to tell me your government isn't after our water in the south? It isn't after our touristic season that they destroy every year under the pretense of eliminating Hezbollah? Won't your government be happy if an internal war erupts inside our country and nobody talks about your country taking back the Palestinian refugees we have here?

    And btw, I am Christian and I am not with any political party, I am with LEBANON, but seriously, Israel does have the motif and the chance and the capability to do these kinds of things. After all, you do hate us, don't you? I don't think you forget the missiles that were signed by the Israeli kids and sent to burn the Lebanese kids in South Lebanon in 2008? Or the Qana Massacre? or the destruction of our infrastructure?

    Man, my guess is Israel is up to its ears in this shit.

    Just my humble opinion...

    Peace

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    Jan 15, 2011 12:02 AM GMT
    samurai111> After all, you do hate us, don't you?

    No, we don't, but reading your post the opposite appears to be true.


    s111> our water in the south?

    You mean the sources of the Jordan River that flow into Israel?
    We're buying a lot of water from Turkey - and built the largest water desalination plant in the world.
    http://www.water-technology.net/projects/israel
    We'd rather make more fresh water than fight over water.


    s111> after our touristic season

    Israel had a record year for tourism and I'm not really sure we "compete" for the same tourists.
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/41024569


    s111> missiles that were signed by the Israeli kids

    I'm glad this is so unusual that 5 years later it's still the incident. In context, though, these children had been stuck in bomb shelters for days and only painted Israeli flags on missiles which had been signed "to Nasrallah with love". (Contrast that with "Kill the Jews", etc.)
    http://ittay.blogspot.com/2006/07/to-nasrallah-with-love-from-israel-and.html

    I'm also glad that in Lebanon, the lucky children are no longer those who only have their hands mutilated by enemy militias so they can't take up arms.


    s111> Won't your government be happy if an internal war erupts inside our country

    Not at all. A stable and strong Lebanon, free of Syrian intrigue, which doesn't let terrorists set up camp along our border and fire at our civilians, is in our best interest.


    s111> I don't think you forget....

    I do think you forget that Hizbullah attacked Israel, firing nearly 100 rockets into Israeli cities and then thousands more because Israel had the audacity to shoot back and attempt to rescue its kidnapped people. (Nasrallah later apologized for precipitating this.)


    I don't know if you forgot or never knew, but the border between our countries used to be called the "good fence".
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,914532,00.html
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    Jan 15, 2011 12:03 AM GMT
    Thanks guys. Actually C4 told me about this thread so it is cool to get the two opposing opinions.
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    Jan 15, 2011 12:08 AM GMT
    So, C4, Israel is the angel in the region? It is all our fault right?
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    Jan 15, 2011 12:31 AM GMT
    samurai111> C4, Israel is the angel in the region?

    Did I say that?
    Or are you erecting a straw man to avoid what I did say?

    What I showed above is that we're certainly not out to get you as you claimed, as if we're the boogeyman or satan's children (even if you didn't use those labels).

    If you take nothing else from what I said above, try to remember that a strong and independent Lebanon is in Israel's interest. Prior to the PLO setting up "Fatahland" in southern Lebanon in the early 1970s, from which it attacked Israeli civilians, and prior to Lebanon subsequently tumbling into nearly 2 decades of civil war, relations were good (if informally so). Lebanon is on the way to recovery and contrary to what I have to call paranoia, Israel would like to see Lebanon succeed.

    Rafik Hariri was moving the country in that direction.
    Now ask yourself who wouldn't want to see that happen.

    Let's just say that there is a lot more truth to Lebanon being a province of Syria than to Kuwait being a province of Iraq.
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    Jan 15, 2011 1:11 AM GMT
    Caesarea4, (LEERON) shut the fuck up nazi. Playing game with us like Israel is a victim in the Middle East, then you are fucking idiot. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jan 15, 2011 1:21 AM GMT
    C4, Rafik Hariri wasn't a savior like u depict him to be. He stole 15 billion dollars from the reconstruction of the downtown in Beirut.

    BTW, man, what happened to the Lebanese people who escaped after u retreated from Lebanon in 2000? How is your government treating them?
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    Jan 15, 2011 1:23 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidsamurai111> C4, Israel is the angel in the region?

    Did I say that?
    Or are you erecting a straw man to avoid what I did say?

    What I showed above is that we're certainly not out to get you as you claimed, as if we're the boogeyman or satan's children (even if you didn't use those labels).

    If you take nothing else from what I said above, try to remember that a strong and independent Lebanon is in Israel's interest. Prior to the PLO setting up "Fatahland" in southern Lebanon in the early 1970s, from which it attacked Israeli civilians, and prior to Lebanon subsequently tumbling into nearly 2 decades of civil war, relations were good (if informally so). Lebanon is on the way to recovery and contrary to what I have to call paranoia, Israel would like to see Lebanon succeed.

    Rafik Hariri was moving the country in that direction.
    Now ask yourself who wouldn't want to see that happen.

    Let's just say that there is a lot more truth to Lebanon being a province of Syria than to Kuwait being a province of Iraq.


    There's quite condemning evidence in direct opposition to your statements against Israeli involvement, see the article I mentioned above, and the writers by the way have nothing to gain by telling anything but the truth. While you as an obvious ZIONIST FANATIC are of suspect motives.

    You know C4, the way you approach these subjects as if your some Authority that needs to be listened to and consulted as if your the last word on your ZIONIST FANATICISM Is quite suspect.

    Now would you mind answering the questions about what faction of ZIONIST FANATIC you represent ??
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    Jan 15, 2011 4:57 AM GMT
    Good grief. More of the usual arguments from contradictory premises.
    First we hear how Hariri was good for Lebanon, "Lebanon's most beloved ever prime minister."
    Thus, they claim, obviously it must have been a Israeli/Zionist/Jewish plot to kill him to weaken Lebanon.

    Yet after I point out that:

    A strong and independent Lebanon is in Israel's interest.
    Lebanon is on the way to recovery and contrary to what I have to call paranoia, Israel would like to see Lebanon succeed.
    Rafik Hariri was moving the country in that direction.
    Now ask yourself who wouldn't want to see that happen.


    We get:.

    samurai111> Rafik Hariri wasn't a savior like u depict him to be.
    He stole 15 billion dollars from the reconstruction of the downtown in Beirut.

    So mabye the killers were the people bilked out of $15 Billion...?

    Can you provide a citation regarding the theft of $15 Billion?


    Likewise pouncer is conflicted. He seems to be with the people behind the "Cedar Revolution", yet then he deviates and ignores that the "March 14" Coalition (named after the date of the "uprising") supports the Tribunal.


    I'm sure it comes as no surprise that the usual suspects hate Israel more than they love Lebanon.
    In their perverse universe, hate of Israel is a display of love for Lebanon.
    (Unfortunately for Lebanon, in most cases that is the limit of their love.)
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    Jan 15, 2011 5:52 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidGood grief. More of the usual arguments from contradictory premises.
    First we hear how Hariri was good for Lebanon, "Lebanon's most beloved ever prime minister."
    Thus, they claim, obviously it must have been a Israeli/Zionist/Jewish plot to kill him to weaken Lebanon.

    Yet after I point out that:

    A strong and independent Lebanon is in Israel's interest.
    Lebanon is on the way to recovery and contrary to what I have to call paranoia, Israel would like to see Lebanon succeed.
    Rafik Hariri was moving the country in that direction.
    Now ask yourself who wouldn't want to see that happen.


    We get:.

    samurai111> Rafik Hariri wasn't a savior like u depict him to be.
    He stole 15 billion dollars from the reconstruction of the downtown in Beirut.

    So mabye the killers were the people bilked out of $15 Billion...?

    Can you provide a citation regarding the theft of $15 Billion?


    Likewise pouncer is conflicted. He seems to be with the people behind the "Cedar Revolution", yet then he deviates and ignores that the "March 14" Coalition (named after the date of the "uprising") supports the Tribunal.


    I'm sure it comes as no surprise that the usual suspects hate Israel more than they love Lebanon.
    In their perverse universe, hate of Israel is a display of love for Lebanon.
    (Unfortunately for Lebanon, in most cases that is the limit of their love.)



    Well imagine this C4 here to close the day with the last ZIONIST FANATIC WORD for the day, and please do tell us what ZIONIST sect your part of ? When are you going to go live in one of your Ilk's favorite settlements ?? then you'll be closer to your Labor of love so you can keep an eye on your labor of love.
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    Jan 15, 2011 5:01 PM GMT
    Once again we see how the usual suspects can't make a comprehensive, logical, argument but trip over themselves as they work backward from desired false conclusions to conflicting premises:

    I. Lebanon is on the way to recovery... Rafik Hariri was moving the country in that direction.

    samurai111> Rafik Hariri wasn't a savior like u depict him to be.

    pouncer> the [March 14 Coalition], with Mr. Hariri as its PM, was elected popularly and had the effect of bringing great peace and unity to Lebanon


    II. pouncer is further conflicted: He seems to be with the people behind the "Cedar Revolution", yet then he deviates and ignores that the "March 14" Coalition (named after the date of the popular "uprising") supports the Tribunal.

    p> The question is not whether I support the March 14th Coalition

    It's a question of consistency, but that must be as foreign to you as honesty, integrity and the scientific method.
    The popularly elected March 14 Coalition supports the UN Special Tribunal for Lebanon.


    III. And even worse, more overt, self-contradiction:

    p1> the tribunal previously published manifold reams of prima facie evidence implicating Syria - not just implicating Syria but actually naming names, giving dates, showing tapes, airing confessions, drawing 'timelines'

    p2> Not on the basis of the gradual accumulation of contradictory evidence, and thus the slow exoneration of Syrian government suspects, but on the (seemingly completely out of the blue) whim of an ideological juridical shift.

    You mean like your ideological shift from saying that Syria was implicated to casting doubt that it might have been Israel?
    (Allegedly for bogus "reasons" which fall apart under scrutiny leading to the first contradiction above.)

    p3> A false witness or two aren't exactly unheard of in the course of most legal proceedings, but the sheer number of now totally discredited persons summoned by the special tribunal

    Look at the ideological shift from the inconvenient truth of "prima facie evidence... tapes... confessions" to "false witness[es]"!
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    Jan 15, 2011 5:10 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidOnce again we see how the usual suspects can't make a comprehensive, logical, argument but trip over themselves as they work backward from desired false conclusions to conflicting premises:

    I. Lebanon is on the way to recovery... Rafik Hariri was moving the country in that direction.

    samurai111> Rafik Hariri wasn't a savior like u depict him to be.

    pouncer> the [March 14 Coalition], with Mr. Hariri as its PM, was elected popularly and had the effect of bringing great peace and unity to Lebanon


    II. pouncer is further conflicted: He seems to be with the people behind the "Cedar Revolution", yet then he deviates and ignores that the "March 14" Coalition (named after the date of the popular "uprising") supports the Tribunal.

    p> The question is not whether I support the March 14th Coalition

    It's a question of consistency, but that must be as foreign to you as honesty, integrity and the scientific method.
    The popularly elected March 14 Coalition supports the UN Special Tribunal for Lebanon.


    III. And even worse, more overt, self-contradiction:

    p1> the tribunal previously published manifold reams of prima facie evidence implicating Syria - not just implicating Syria but actually naming names, giving dates, showing tapes, airing confessions, drawing 'timelines'

    p2> Not on the basis of the gradual accumulation of contradictory evidence, and thus the slow exoneration of Syrian government suspects, but on the (seemingly completely out of the blue) whim of an ideological juridical shift.

    You mean like your ideological shift from saying that Syria was implicated to casting doubt that it might have been Israel?
    (Allegedly for bogus "reasons" which fall apart under scrutiny leading to the first contradiction above.)

    p3> A false witness or two aren't exactly unheard of in the course of most legal proceedings, but the sheer number of now totally discredited persons summoned by the special tribunal

    Look at the ideological shift from the inconvenient truth of "prima facie evidence... tapes... confessions" to "false witness[es]"!


    Well the resident ZIONIST FANATIC is telling us more of his PROPAGANDA facts for the day, Tell us C4 what ZIONIST FANATIC SECT gives you all this authority to have the last word? (at least in your mind) Your an OBNOXIOUS fool, So when are you going to join up with one of those settlement operations you ZIONISTS are so proud of ??
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    Jan 15, 2011 6:40 PM GMT
    C4, just to put things into perspective again, what do you want to say? What is your point? What is the message you want to convey?

    That Israel is not guilty? Maybe it is guilty, maybe it isn't, but anyway, no matter the truth, no one will ever accuse Israel of anything in the international community.

    Your government has basically a green card to do whatever it wants. Again maybe Hezbollah did it, maybe it didn't, but there is no credibility to this tribunal after everything that happened.

    It is clearly backed up by the US department of state and Israel so its results are known beforehand, how stupid is that?

    How can the verdict of a tribunal be known months before it is published? Ask the editor of Ha'aretz. He seems to know every single detail. Weird, huh?
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    Jan 15, 2011 6:56 PM GMT
    There it is again, the obsession with Israel.

    As I said:

    I'm sure it comes as no surprise that the usual suspects hate Israel more than they love Lebanon.
    In their perverse universe, hate of Israel is a display of love for Lebanon.
    (Unfortunately for Lebanon, in most cases that is the limit of their love.)


    samurai111> How can the verdict of a tribunal be known months before it is published? Ask the editor of Ha'aretz. He seems to know every single detail. Weird, huh?

    So does the editor of Al Jazeera. Weird, huh?

    And just a few months ago we had a topic or two on RJ claiming to know that the Tribunal was going to implicate Israel.
    At which point, of course, the people who now question its integrity were busy praising it.
    Weird, huh?


    samurai111> Rafik Hariri wasn't a savior like u depict him to be.
    He stole 15 billion dollars from the reconstruction of the downtown in Beirut.

    So mabye the killers were the people bilked out of $15 Billion...?

    samurai111> [Not on his list of suspects, better to blame Israel despite the facts.]


    Can you provide a citation regarding the theft of $15 Billion?

    samurai111> ?


    Lebanon is on the way to recovery... Rafik Hariri was moving the country in that direction.

    samurai111> Rafik Hariri wasn't a savior like u depict him to be.

    pouncer> The popular uprising against [Syria for] the political assassination of probably Lebanon's most beloved ever prime minister

    pouncer> the [March 14 Coalition], with Mr. Hariri as its PM, was elected popularly and had the effect of bringing great peace and unity to Lebanon

    So pouncer is wrong?
    But you don't care and would rather focus on Israel?

    How sad that whether Hariri was doing good things for Lebanon or not is a variable that can be changed (conflicting premise!) depending on what the anti-Israel fanatics want to "prove" that minute.
    The truth, let alone Lebanon's interests, (if even on the list) are secondary to hating on Israel.
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    Jan 15, 2011 8:08 PM GMT
    samurai111 saidC4, just to put things into perspective again, what do you want to say? What is your point? What is the message you want to convey?

    That Israel is not guilty? Maybe it is guilty, maybe it isn't, but anyway, no matter the truth, no one will ever accuse Israel of anything in the international community.

    Your government has basically a green card to do whatever it wants. Again maybe Hezbollah did it, maybe it didn't, but there is no credibility to this tribunal after everything that happened.

    It is clearly backed up by the US department of state and Israel so its results are known beforehand, how stupid is that?

    How can the verdict of a tribunal be known months before it is published? Ask the editor of Ha'aretz. He seems to know every single detail. Weird, huh?



    You are now seeing why Ceaserea4 is considered nothing but a ZIONIST FANATIC who is hell bent of spreading ZIONIST PROPAGANDA, he's anything but credible when the subject is Israel. I'm sure your starting to recognise too, just how OBNOXIOUS he is, He comes off as the ZIONIST know it all, here to tell everyone just how it is.

    I wonder what ZIONIST FANATIC SECT C4 belongs to ? I just wish he'd leave for one of those settlements his fellow ZIONISTS are so proud of, he could maybe convince them of his bullshit.

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    Jan 15, 2011 8:21 PM GMT
    Absent a coherent, logical, argument, pouncer instead turns to ad hominem.

    Let's review what he couldn't address:

    I. Lebanon is on the way to recovery... Rafik Hariri was moving the country in that direction.

    samurai111> Rafik Hariri wasn't a savior like u depict him to be.

    pouncer> the [March 14 Coalition], with Mr. Hariri as its PM, was elected popularly and had the effect of bringing great peace and unity to Lebanon

    pouncer> The popular uprising against [Syria for] the political assassination of probably Lebanon's most beloved ever prime minister

    So which is it?! Beloved, popular, "savior" bringing "great peace and unity" - or not?!


    II. pouncer is further conflicted: He seems to be with the people behind the "Cedar Revolution", yet then he deviates and ignores that the "March 14" Coalition (named after the date of the popular "uprising") supports the Tribunal.

    p> The question is not whether I support the March 14th Coalition

    It's a question of consistency, but that must be as foreign to you as honesty, integrity and the scientific method.
    The popularly elected March 14 Coalition supports the UN Special Tribunal for Lebanon.


    III. And even worse, more overt, self-contradiction:

    p1> the tribunal previously published manifold reams of prima facie evidence implicating Syria - not just implicating Syria but actually naming names, giving dates, showing tapes, airing confessions, drawing 'timelines'

    p2> Not on the basis of the gradual accumulation of contradictory evidence, and thus the slow exoneration of Syrian government suspects, but on the (seemingly completely out of the blue) whim of an ideological juridical shift.

    You mean like your ideological shift from saying that Syria was implicated to casting doubt that it might have been Israel?
    (Allegedly for bogus "reasons" which fall apart under scrutiny leading to the first contradiction above.)

    p3> A false witness or two aren't exactly unheard of in the course of most legal proceedings, but the sheer number of now totally discredited persons summoned by the special tribunal

    Look at the ideological shift from the inconvenient truth of "prima facie evidence... tapes... confessions" to "false witness[es]"!