A test for Social Democrats and Liberals

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    Jan 15, 2011 2:31 PM GMT
    I saw this on a profile and agreed with it 100%. So let's see what kind of response it gets. Remember that if you dont put actual actions with what your words say, they don't mean a heck of a lot. I'm especially interested in hearing from Dems who want higher taxes for the upper middle class who are paying more than what their taxes are then. If theyvso believe that, then they can freely give more to the govt. So below is the posting I saw:

    Here is a simple idea for social democrats, progressives, and liberals of all sorts...ts called "lead by example". What do I mean? Simply this, you claim to be about helping the poor, the needy, and those who have less then yourself, but if thats truly the case then why do you not lead by example? Why do you not send in more money then you are taxed? Why do you not spend more of your time (or any time at all, for that matter) aiding those you claim you want to help? The answer is simple really. Ready? Its because you truly have no desire to do these things if it is going to cost you more then someone else. Thats why you want to force everyone to have to participate in your agenda by legislating and by using the government to perform legal theft.
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    Jan 15, 2011 3:54 PM GMT
    To the OP,

    Please provide citations for the following:

    "Simply this, you claim to be about helping the poor, the needy, and those who have less then yourself, but if thats truly the case then why do you not lead by example? Why do you not send in more money then you are taxed? Why do you not spend more of your time (or any time at all, for that matter) aiding those you claim you want to help?"

    You know liberals and social democrats don't do the above because.....


    icon_question.gif


    -Doug
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    Jan 15, 2011 4:04 PM GMT
    *gigglea* oh yes, Mr liar.

    In fact we do a lot more than volunteer. Cash donations to large reputable charities and guess what? WE don't deduct them from our taxable income.

    We also don;t try to fins clever loopholes to avoid taxes. We gladly pay for our social programs because there was a time ( in my case) where I was completely poor. Early 20s for about a year. I'll never forget what it was like.


    Now go volunteer in palliative care and get back to me with some truth. I'll advise you it's not for the faint of heart. Nor do I think you could cope with the hours.

    ...and there's more. In our last house we had a one bedroom suite. A dying lady, a stranger, afraid of hospice and poor (welfare was aprox 500 a month) lived in it. We gave this to her and looked after her 24/7 til she died- in our home.

    -Doug

    Incidentally Mr Liar, there are a number of men on here that know fully who we are. They're likely having a great laugh at your expense.

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    Jan 15, 2011 4:28 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    jprichva saidSo glad you left Florida. It's a nicer place without you in it.

    But.... I'm still here! icon_twisted.gif

    So you claim.
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    Jan 15, 2011 4:31 PM GMT
    Men in love...I applaud your social work as you do "lead by example" in that regard. Do you also pay the government MORE than what you owe in taxes, as is the liberal Dem creed? If you do that too, then you "lead by example" fiscally, as well.

    I do not think many liberal Democrats follow their own agenda unfortunately. They want everyone else to give but they themselves are not. That is the hypocrisy of the liberal Democrat and Socialist agenda. They talk and talk about social injustice and then they themselves do NOTHING to change or give themselves. Especially ironic to me is that if they think more money should be given to the government for whatever reason, then go ahead and pony up ahead of time. Theres no law that says you can't pay more than what your taxes are. Do it and then you can be high and mighty about being a Liberal Dem. Understand?
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    Jan 15, 2011 4:35 PM GMT
    cvilleguy saidMen in love...I applaud your social work as you do "lead by example" in that regard. Do you also pay the government MORE than what you owe in taxes, as is the liberal Dem creed? If you do that too, then you "lead by example" fiscally, as well.

    I do not think many liberal Democrats follow their own agenda unfortunately. They want everyone else to give but they themselves are not. That is the hypocrisy of the liberal Democrat and Socialist agenda. They talk and talk about social injustice and then they themselves do NOTHING to change or give themselves. Especially ironic to me is that if they think more money should be given to the government for whatever reason, then go ahead and pony up ahead of time. Theres no law that says you can't pay more than what your taxes are. Do it and then you can be high and mighty about being a Liberal Dem. Understand?


    Check out our tax rates before telling us to give more than what our government asks of us. Your tax rates are puny.

    Incidentally, we don't worship at the altar of any political party like many in the US do, and some in Canada do. There is good and bad in all of them.

    One more thing, in our country if you over-contribute (both of us have done it) the gov't sends you the money back. In those cases the money we were refunded went to, you guessed it, charity.

    As well, you think we're rare? Nope. You just don't know any. Most don't go saying it(what they do), though, because of idiots that call it bragging even though bragging is obviously different from simply stating what you do. It's called leading by example.

    -Doug






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    Jan 15, 2011 4:43 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    meninlove said *gigglea* oh yes, Mr liar.

    In fact we do a lot more than volunteer. Cash donations to large reputable charities and guess what? WE don't deduct them from our taxable income.

    We also don;t try to fins clever loopholes to avoid taxes. We gladly pay for our social programs because there was a time ( in my case) where I was completely poor. Early 20s for about a year. I'll never forget what it was like.


    Now go volunteer in palliative care and get back to me with some truth. I'll advise you it's not for the faint of heart. Nor do I think you could cope with the hours.

    ...and there's more. In our last house we had a one bedroom suite. A dying lady, a stranger, afraid of hospice and poor (welfare was aprox 500 a month) lived in it. We gave this to her and looked after her 24/7 til she died- in our home.

    -Doug

    Incidentally Mr Liar, there are a number of men on here that know fully who we are. They're likely having a great laugh at your expense.



    You two are the supreme hypocrites.

    On the one hand you write about how kind and caring and giving you are. And on the other, you are mean and vicious to anyone who doesn't share your political views.

    Weird....


    No it isn't. If your political views are to shit on the destitute, then I'm going to call it. Anyone can call their bigotry political views; it's often done. In our case we have relatives that are Republican and they have almost nothing in common with some of the callous conservatives on here that care more about their idealism than what harm it may do others.

    -Doug

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    Jan 15, 2011 4:48 PM GMT
    cvilleguy saidWhy do you not spend more of your time (or any time at all, for that matter) aiding those you claim you want to help? The answer is simple really. Ready? Its because you truly have no desire to do these things...

    Please read my RJ profile. Also my posts here that touch on this subject. Also forum photos of me doing these things (and more in my private photos, that select Members have seen).

    Furthermore, many of my friends in the gay community do likewise. And gay merchants who contribute incredible time & money to charitable causes of all kinds. Indeed, my partner & I not only contribute at very high levels ourselves, but spend a great amount of time soliciting charitable gifts from these people and businesses.

    Funny you should run this by me of all people. I'm the guy who actually set up and personally operates (and as a non-paid volunteer) the entire contributor database for one of the largest charities in Florida. And so I know, by name, every donor we have out of thousands, plus a great many of them in person, and I can tell you more than half are gay. Giving many tens of thousands of dollars cash each year, individually, and other gifts-in-kind worth as much.

    So that what you post is pure BS.

    http://www.realjock.com/Art_Deco
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    Jan 15, 2011 4:58 PM GMT
    This is the most childish and silly meme that the right is currently perpetuating.

    Yes. I volunteer my time and expertise. I donate money to a range of causes.

    And, most significantly, I recently launched my own nonprofit in memory of my mother to raise awareness and develop solutions for people suffering from the infection that killed her. Since she passed, I have spent on average 20-25 hours per week (unpaid) raising money, talking to sufferers, engaging doctors and public health workers, and developing a long-range plan to minimize death and disability arising from C. diff infections.

    Those of us who are calling for increased taxes are obviously willing to pay whatever increase affects us. The Congresspeople who were arguing for letting the Bush tax cuts expire are in the bracket that will see their taxes rise.

    Further, many of us give money to causes and organizations that have arisen in response to the tearing down of the social safety net: homeless agencies, food pantries, free clinics, disease research, etc. These are vital services that the right-wing in this country have been attacking and succeeding in eliminating in the states and at the federal level.

    And, I would pay additional taxes if I could designate where it would go.

    Also, for myself, and I think others on here would agree, do not want taxes raised for the sake of raising taxes. We're the same people - mostly - who have been arguing for the end of military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the closing down of military bases in other countries, and a range of other extremely costly things our government is engaged in so that money can be spent here at home.

    Then there is the issue of national and state-wide debt. I would be for creating an actual plan to eliminate the debt and adding a graduate tax for every single American who earns a middle-class wager or more. That I would pay happily.
  • rnch

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    Jan 15, 2011 5:09 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    southbeach1500 said
    jprichva saidSo glad you left Florida. It's a nicer place without you in it.

    But.... I'm still here! icon_twisted.gif

    So you claim.


    IF he was ever there? icon_idea.gif
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    Jan 15, 2011 5:11 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    meninlove said No it isn't. If your political views are to shit on the destitute, then I'm going to call it. Anyone can call their bigotry political views; it's often done. In our case we have relatives that are Republican and they have almost nothing in common with some of the callous conservatives on here that care more about their idealism than what harm it may do others.

    -Doug



    No conservative on here has such political views.

    But you prove my point.... anyone with a political view that is not socialist is subjected to hate and ridicule from you two.


    Bullshit, Mr Liar, some of our buddies on here are conservatives....and you demonstrate classic bigotry. icon_lol.gif
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    Jan 15, 2011 5:20 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    meninlove said

    Bullshit, Mr Liar .... you demonstrate classic bigotry. icon_lol.gif


    Keep proving my point. icon_lol.gif


    We're looking at your post history. icon_lol.gif

    -Doug



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    Jan 15, 2011 5:24 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    meninlove said We're looking at your post history....


    ..... through socialist glasses.


    *giggles* This observation of yours is because you can't think pragmatically and compassionately at the same time. You don't know how.



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    Jan 15, 2011 5:33 PM GMT
    meninlove said... Most don't go saying it(what they do), though, because of idiots that call it bragging even though bragging is obviously different from simply stating what you do. ...

    I agree completely, but if I recall correctly, you took a different tact before when I mentioned that there are fiscal conservatives who are quite generous with time and money. You mentioned these acts should be stated as they would provide examples. My response was it was up to the person to make that assessment. You also stated in assessing a couple of RJ members that your very confident assessments can be made only on the basis of their posts, not allowing the possibility of other actions of theirs that they do not post.

    I think in many individual cases, generosity exists among those of very differing political positions. Because liberals advocate strong public programs and resulting taxes, they are particularly prone to throwing out the generosity card meaning "I'm more generous then you". To many fiscal conservatives, it rings hollow, as they're being generous with other people's money and there is little evidence that many do pay more than their required taxes, which is possible in the US.
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    Jan 15, 2011 5:40 PM GMT
    rnch said
    Art_Deco said
    southbeach1500 said
    jprichva saidSo glad you left Florida. It's a nicer place without you in it.

    But.... I'm still here! icon_twisted.gif

    So you claim.

    IF he was ever there? icon_idea.gif

    Oh, yes, I recognize that photo he used to have as his main pic, as likely being somewhere on South Beach, at some point in time. Not along Ocean Drive, evidently, and I'm not going to go snooping around to find the exact spot. I think it could be south of 5th St and Ocean, or else further north beginning around 15th, where South Beach is really ending.

    But lots of people visit in South Beach and take pics. I think what causes doubt for some guys here is that he never talks about this area, never helps guys coming down here to vacation, doesn't offer any travel advice. And that he went silent when I offered drinks on me down there on Ocean Drive, before we started going at each other's throats online here a couple of years ago.

    southbeach1500.jpg
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    Jan 15, 2011 5:48 PM GMT
    cvilleguy saidI saw this on a profile and agreed with it 100%. So let's see what kind of response it gets. Remember that if you dont put actual actions with what your words say, they don't mean a heck of a lot. I'm especially interested in hearing from Dems who want higher taxes for the upper middle class who are paying more than what their taxes are then. If theyvso believe that, then they can freely give more to the govt. So below is the posting I saw:

    Here is a simple idea for social democrats, progressives, and liberals of all sorts...ts called "lead by example". What do I mean? Simply this, you claim to be about helping the poor, the needy, and those who have less then yourself, but if thats truly the case then why do you not lead by example? Why do you not send in more money then you are taxed? Why do you not spend more of your time (or any time at all, for that matter) aiding those you claim you want to help? The answer is simple really. Ready? Its because you truly have no desire to do these things if it is going to cost you more then someone else. Thats why you want to force everyone to have to participate in your agenda by legislating and by using the government to perform legal theft.


    Great post!
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    Jan 15, 2011 5:51 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    meninlove said... Most don't go saying it(what they do), though, because of idiots that call it bragging even though bragging is obviously different from simply stating what you do. ...

    I agree completely, but if I recall correctly, you took a different tact before when I mentioned that there are fiscal conservatives who are quite generous with time and money. You mentioned these acts should be stated as they would provide examples.


    Which is the same as what I've just said here, if you look carefully.


    ...we also believe others should talk about their success at wealth; it's showing that financial goals and dreams are attainable. We noticed how conservativejock got slammed over the gift of a car, we had immediately congratulated him on his wonderful anticipation at christmas. Then the bashing began. UC, a very left individual also thought the gift nice and didn't like the wealth bashing.

    What Bill and I notice on here is that there are members that think that you must be all one thing or another. Tripe.

    -Doug
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    Jan 15, 2011 7:57 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    cvilleguy saidWhy do you not spend more of your time (or any time at all, for that matter) aiding those you claim you want to help? The answer is simple really. Ready? Its because you truly have no desire to do these things...

    Please read my RJ profile. Also my posts here that touch on this subject. Also forum photos of me doing these things (and more in my private photos, that select Members have seen).

    Furthermore, many of my friends in the gay community do likewise. And gay merchants who contribute incredible time & money to charitable causes of all kinds. Indeed, my partner & I not only contribute at very high levels ourselves, but spend a great amount of time soliciting charitable gifts from these people and businesses.

    Funny you should run this by me of all people. I'm the guy who actually set up and personally operates (and as a non-paid volunteer) the entire contributor database for one of the largest charities in Florida. And so I know, by name, every donor we have out of thousands, plus a great many of them in person, and I can tell you more than half are gay. Giving many tens of thousands of dollars cash each year, individually, and other gifts-in-kind worth as much.

    So that what you post is pure BS.

    http://www.realjock.com/Art_Deco


    I am not looking at your profile to see what you do. I posted this from something I read which I feel is accurate and still do. Do you and your friends also send MORE to the government than what you are currently taxed? You didn't answer that part of the posting..I wonder why. Is it because you like to talk about raising taxes for the upper middle class or the rich,,,yet won't do it yourself even though you could set an example. So go ahead, tell me that you pay more than what you are currently taxed to the governement. That IS what the Libreal Dems want after all.
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    Jan 15, 2011 7:58 PM GMT
    cvilleguy said
    meninlove said
    cvilleguy saidMen in love...I applaud your social work as you do "lead by example" in that regard. Do you also pay the government MORE than what you owe in taxes, as is the liberal Dem creed? If you do that too, then you "lead by example" fiscally, as well.

    I do not think many liberal Democrats follow their own agenda unfortunately. They want everyone else to give but they themselves are not. That is the hypocrisy of the liberal Democrat and Socialist agenda. They talk and talk about social injustice and then they themselves do NOTHING to change or give themselves. Especially ironic to me is that if they think more money should be given to the government for whatever reason, then go ahead and pony up ahead of time. Theres no law that says you can't pay more than what your taxes are. Do it and then you can be high and mighty about being a Liberal Dem. Understand?


    Check out our tax rates before telling us to give more than what our government asks of us. Your tax rates are puny.

    Incidentally, we don't worship at the altar of any political party like many in the US do, and some in Canada do. There is good and bad in all of them.

    One more thing, in our country if you over-contribute (both of us have done it) the gov't sends you the money back. In those cases the money we were refunded went to, you guessed it, charity.

    As well, you think we're rare? Nope. You just don't know any. Most don't go saying it(what they do), though, because of idiots that call it bragging even though bragging is obviously different from simply stating what you do. It's called leading by example.

    -Doug

    I think ytou're full of it, if you think that Dems give more than what their taxes are. In fact, I bet you're a complete fabricator. Prove to me that you give more than what your taxed...you can't. You just want everyone else to do things that you yourself won't even do on your own. Hypocrite






    "In fact, I bet you're a complete fabricator." You bet wrong. And those on here that know us outside of this place are laughing.
    lol, are you suggesting we give financial details and our full names and copies of our tax returns and receipts from charitable donations on here for you? Please check the TOS for admin's advice against that.

    No generalizations please. You're saying all dems from this statement?" I think ytou're full of it, if you think that Dems give more than what their taxes are."

    Here:

    http://www.city-journal.org/html/rev2007-01-18hh.html

    Both do, conservatives more than liberals. Liberals tend to do so via higher taxes, and large organizations. But as the link says, they do individual donations etc but LESS than 'conservatives'.
    Notice nothing about free thinkers or independents.

    -Doug
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    Jan 15, 2011 7:59 PM GMT
    cvilleguy said
    Art_Deco said
    cvilleguy saidWhy do you not spend more of your time (or any time at all, for that matter) aiding those you claim you want to help? The answer is simple really. Ready? Its because you truly have no desire to do these things...

    Please read my RJ profile. Also my posts here that touch on this subject. Also forum photos of me doing these things (and more in my private photos, that select Members have seen).

    Furthermore, many of my friends in the gay community do likewise. And gay merchants who contribute incredible time & money to charitable causes of all kinds. Indeed, my partner & I not only contribute at very high levels ourselves, but spend a great amount of time soliciting charitable gifts from these people and businesses.

    Funny you should run this by me of all people. I'm the guy who actually set up and personally operates (and as a non-paid volunteer) the entire contributor database for one of the largest charities in Florida. And so I know, by name, every donor we have out of thousands, plus a great many of them in person, and I can tell you more than half are gay. Giving many tens of thousands of dollars cash each year, individually, and other gifts-in-kind worth as much.

    So that what you post is pure BS.

    http://www.realjock.com/Art_Deco


    I am not looking at your profile to see what you do. I posted this from something I read which I feel is accurate and still do. Do you and your friends also send MORE to the government than what you are currently taxed? You didn't answer that part of the posting..I wonder why. Is it because you like to talk about raising taxes for the upper middle class or the rich,,,yet won't do it yourself even though you could set an example. So go ahead, tell me that you pay more than what you are currently taxed to the governement. That IS what the Libreal Dems want after all.


    Or you could deal with what others of us have written in response to your screed:

    This is the most childish and silly meme that the right is currently perpetuating.

    Yes. I volunteer my time and expertise. I donate money to a range of causes.

    And, most significantly, I recently launched my own nonprofit in memory of my mother to raise awareness and develop solutions for people suffering from the infection that killed her. Since she passed, I have spent on average 20-25 hours per week (unpaid) raising money, talking to sufferers, engaging doctors and public health workers, and developing a long-range plan to minimize death and disability arising from C. diff infections.

    Those of us who are calling for increased taxes are obviously willing to pay whatever increase affects us. The Congresspeople who were arguing for letting the Bush tax cuts expire are in the bracket that will see their taxes rise.

    Further, many of us give money to causes and organizations that have arisen in response to the tearing down of the social safety net: homeless agencies, food pantries, free clinics, disease research, etc. These are vital services that the right-wing in this country have been attacking and succeeding in eliminating in the states and at the federal level.

    And, I would pay additional taxes if I could designate where it would go.

    Also, for myself, and I think others on here would agree, do not want taxes raised for the sake of raising taxes. We're the same people - mostly - who have been arguing for the end of military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the closing down of military bases in other countries, and a range of other extremely costly things our government is engaged in so that money can be spent here at home.

    Then there is the issue of national and state-wide debt. I would be for creating an actual plan to eliminate the debt and adding a graduate tax for every single American who earns a middle-class wager or more. That I would pay happily.
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    Jan 15, 2011 8:04 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]meninlove said[/cite]
    cvilleguy saidMen in love...I applaud your social work as you do "lead by example" in that regard. Do you also pay the government MORE than what you owe in taxes, as is the liberal Dem creed? If you do that too, then you "lead by example" fiscally, as well.

    I do not think many liberal Democrats follow their own agenda unfortunately. They want everyone else to give but they themselves are not. That is the hypocrisy of the liberal Democrat and Socialist agenda. They talk and talk about social injustice and then they themselves do NOTHING to change or give themselves. Especially ironic to me is that if they think more money should be given to the government for whatever reason, then go ahead and pony up ahead of time. Theres no law that says you can't pay more than what your taxes are. Do it and then you can be high and mighty about being a Liberal Dem. Understand?


    Check out our tax rates before telling us to give more than what our government asks of us. Your tax rates are puny.

    Incidentally, we don't worship at the altar of any political party like many in the US do, and some in Canada do. There is good and bad in all of them.

    One more thing, in our country if you over-contribute (both of us have done it) the gov't sends you the money back. In those cases the money we were refunded went to, you guessed it, charity.

    As well, you think we're rare? Nope. You just don't know any. Most don't go saying it(what they do), though, because of idiots that call it bragging even though bragging is obviously different from simply stating what you do. It's called leading by example.

    -Doug






    [/quote

    To be perfectly honest, I could not care less what the tax code in Canada is because I live in the USA. So what is your point to even posting on this subject? You can keep your opinions in Canada for all I care and continue your great deeds there. The Canadian system is vastly different than America and I am just glad I don't live there and hope that the USA never adapts those socialistic policies that do take so much money from every day Canadians.
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    Jan 15, 2011 8:11 PM GMT
    I'm curious about what is meant by overpaying taxes. I justed look up overpayment in the US and if you pay too much they refuse it and send you a cheque, like what happened to us up here. All you can do is donate to a government funded program, I think.

    There also seems to be some odd perception by some people that all liberals are OK with higher taxes because they won't be paying them. lol, I'd be curious know how 'some people' think that would happen.
    All liberals are poor so they won't pay the tax hikes?
    Nope.
    All rich liberals have their money hidden off-shore somewhere?
    Nope.

    -Doug
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    Jan 15, 2011 8:14 PM GMT
    meninlove said I'm curious about what is meant by overpaying taxes. I justed look up overpayment in the US and if you pay too much they refuse it and send you a cheque, like what happened to us up here. All you can do is donate to a government funded program, I think.

    There also seems to be some odd perception by some people that all liberals are OK with higher taxes because they won't be paying them. lol, I'd be curious know how 'some people' think that would happen.
    All liberals are poor so they won't pay the tax hikes?
    Nope.
    All rich liberals have their money hidden off-shore somewhere?
    Nope.

    -Doug


    I know so many liberals who are extremely cheap and do everything they can to keep their money from being taxed -- but yet they love liberal policies.

    It has also been suggested as a statistical fact that conservatives are more generous in giving to charity.
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    Jan 15, 2011 8:17 PM GMT
    meninlove said I'm curious about what is meant by overpaying taxes. I justed look up overpayment in the US and if you pay too much they refuse it and send you a cheque, like what happened to us up here. All you can do is donate to a government funded program, I think.

    There also seems to be some odd perception by some people that all liberals are OK with higher taxes because they won't be paying them. lol, I'd be curious know how 'some people' think that would happen.
    All liberals are poor so they won't pay the tax hikes?
    Nope.
    All rich liberals have their money hidden off-shore somewhere?
    Nope.

    -Doug


    Doug -

    There are ways to contribute more money to the government, both at the federal and local level. And there are plenty of government/private partnerships that raise a good deal of money from individuals.

    That's not the issue here. This meme is a childish and illogical attempt to attack the very necessary need to raise more federal revenue to pay down the debt created by the failed policies they would like continued or increased.
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    Jan 15, 2011 8:18 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    meninlove said I'm curious about what is meant by overpaying taxes. I justed look up overpayment in the US and if you pay too much they refuse it and send you a cheque, like what happened to us up here. All you can do is donate to a government funded program, I think.

    There also seems to be some odd perception by some people that all liberals are OK with higher taxes because they won't be paying them. lol, I'd be curious know how 'some people' think that would happen.
    All liberals are poor so they won't pay the tax hikes?
    Nope.
    All rich liberals have their money hidden off-shore somewhere?
    Nope.

    -Doug


    I know so many liberals who are extremely cheap and do everything they can to keep their money from being taxed -- but yet they love liberal policies.

    It has also been suggested as a statistical fact that conservatives are more generous in giving to charity.


    Mockie -

    Please cite the sources you have for the "fact" that conservatives are more generous in giving to charity. Because having been in the business for 10 years, I've never seen such a study.