i need help for an alcoholic

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    Jan 25, 2011 2:05 AM GMT
    anyone know an addiction specialist in Manhattan? need to help a friend. preferably someone who is gay friendly
  • LJay

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    Jan 25, 2011 3:14 AM GMT
    Contact AA and ask about the gay thing. I'll bet there is a group for him. If the group idea is no good, then they may have some ideas about individual counseling.
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    Jan 25, 2011 3:59 AM GMT
    AA is a great resource, you may also look into out-patient clinics. At the very least they'll be able to give you information.

    That having been said, the hardest part is realizing that no matter what you do, your friend has to want to get help. It is the sad maxim that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink (but in this case the opposite).

    My cousin has an addictive personality and I have tried many times to get him help. Every time it has failed to work because he personally did not want to stop. My heart goes out to you for wanting to help your friend. Don't stop. Don't give up. We can't make people change, they have to want it. All we can really do is be there to help them put the pieces back together when things fall apart.

    Take care and be well.
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    Jan 25, 2011 4:05 AM GMT
    i dont really get it...are you trying to get help for them or do they want help and are using you as a resource? addiction specialists are totally great and work for some people but noone is a better addiction specialist than an addict. when people come to me with drug problems or alcoholism i usually tell them to:

    1. go to AA raise yer hand say im new and need help.
    2. go to detox, go to aftercare and then go into further treatment

    i dont know anything about your friend or their issue or the severity or whatever but i do know alot about alcoholism and addiction. if you are trying to get help for them as opposed to them trying to help themselves it will never work.
    in the end it has to be bad enough that the change is less painful then remaining the same.
  • vintovka

    Posts: 588

    Jan 25, 2011 5:43 AM GMT
    Ditto to what everyone already said

    AA (or NA, cause alcohol is a drug)--there are plenty of gay-friendly groups, particularly in large cities

    If he has insurance he may benefit from inpatient treatment

    If he has been drinking heavily for a long time, he may need to be medically detoxed--alcohol is once of the few drugs where the detox can be dangerous or even fatal (this usually only applies to people who drink every day over long periods of time)

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    Jan 25, 2011 5:51 AM GMT
    vintovka said

    If he has insurance he may benefit from inpatient treatment




    DPH guarantees placement for 30 days in stabilization programs without insurance. its hit or miss whether or not you end up in a shithole but insurance is not an issue as long as there is a DPH bed open..in the winter its alot harder though cuz everyone is trying to not be out in the cold.
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    Jan 25, 2011 11:18 AM GMT
    There are some non-religious Alcohol and drug abuse groups, if you look in the phone book, look on-line, etc. Addicts need support, but some addicts are unable to change in spite of how much support they get. Some addicts drink mouth wash, cold medicine, etc to get their alcohol when unable to get access to alcohol. I wish your friend well, and hope he has success.
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    Jan 25, 2011 11:29 AM GMT
    Avoid any AA/12 step program, unless your friend thinks god can help.
    As I understand it it's BULLSHIT.
    I found this episode of Penn&Tellers Bullshit quite enlightning and entertaining.



    "(chance of recovery) with AA: 5%, without AA (no treatment): 5%"

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    Jan 25, 2011 5:27 PM GMT
    judoguy saidAvoid any AA/12 step program, unless your friend thinks god can help.
    As I understand it it's BULLSHIT.



    ORLY?

    im glad you think you understand AA because you watched a video. Ive lived it and besides the fact that you are telling an alcoholic whatt not to do and offering no other help you clearly have no concept of what AA is really about. which is common because everyone gets caught up in the 'god' thing.

    1. noone comes to AA believing in god. if you believe in god then it probably hasnt gotten bad enough for you to want to change.
    2. there is no such thing as a 'recovered' person. you never stop being an alcoholic. why do you think people say 'hi im dan im an alcoholic' even after they havent had a drink in years? there is no winning. there is no success rate. people are sober for 30 years and then pick up right where they leave off. its a cunning, baffling and insidious disease.
    3. AA teaches about the disease of alcoholism. you cant learn about it in a textbook because it really has nothing to do with alcohol. its fear, guilt and insecurity. its obsession and compulsion. its a whole lot of things wrapped up into something that manifests itself with alcohol and drugs. you dont stop drinking and then get better. some people have fucked themselves up so bad that there is no turning back. the further you go into the woods the further you have to come out.

    Im not sure why you think its 'BULLSHIT'. you think they have something to gain? I did. I thought AA was total bullshit until I was in a inpatient rehab and every night 5 different guys would come in and talk to 30 junkies about experience, strength and hope. they had nothing to gain, they werent court ordered and they werent getting paid. I really couldnt grasp the concept of why total strangers would want me to get better. so their cult could grow? AA teaches people who for one reason or another havent learned things that other people find second nature - like service before self and righting wrongs and learning to live an unselfish life.

    You probably have never cried out to a god you dont believe in to take away your pain or make everything go away jut for 5 seconds. If you did I doubt you would be so dismissive of an organization that who primary purpose is to help the alcoholic that still suffers. god has nothing to do with it. thats a personal choice people make. AA accepts anyone for any reason - drunk, sober, shooting dope in the bathroom - you always get welcomed in.

    So...how about you dont talk about things you know NOTHING about.
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    Jan 25, 2011 5:53 PM GMT
    blackstrap said
    judoguy saidAvoid any AA/12 step program, unless your friend thinks god can help.
    As I understand it it's BULLSHIT.



    ORLY?

    im glad you think you understand AA because you watched a video. Ive lived it and besides the fact that you are telling an alcoholic whatt not to do and offering no other help you clearly have no concept of what AA is really about. which is common because everyone gets caught up in the 'god' thing.

    1. noone comes to AA believing in god. if you believe in god then it probably hasnt gotten bad enough for you to want to change.
    2. there is no such thing as a 'recovered' person. you never stop being an alcoholic. why do you think people say 'hi im dan im an alcoholic' even after they havent had a drink in years? there is no winning. there is no success rate. people are sober for 30 years and then pick up right where they leave off. its a cunning, baffling and insidious disease.
    3. AA teaches about the disease of alcoholism. you cant learn about it in a textbook because it really has nothing to do with alcohol. its fear, guilt and insecurity. its obsession and compulsion. its a whole lot of things wrapped up into something that manifests itself with alcohol and drugs. you dont stop drinking and then get better. some people have fucked themselves up so bad that there is no turning back. the further you go into the woods the further you have to come out.

    Im not sure why you think its 'BULLSHIT'. you think they have something to gain? I did. I thought AA was total bullshit until I was in a inpatient rehab and every night 5 different guys would come in and talk to 30 junkies about experience, strength and hope. they had nothing to gain, they werent court ordered and they werent getting paid. I really couldnt grasp the concept of why total strangers would want me to get better. so their cult could grow? AA teaches people who for one reason or another havent learned things that other people find second nature - like service before self and righting wrongs and learning to live an unselfish life.

    You probably have never cried out to a god you dont believe in to take away your pain or make everything go away jut for 5 seconds. If you did I doubt you would be so dismissive of an organization that who primary purpose is to help the alcoholic that still suffers. god has nothing to do with it. thats a personal choice people make. AA accepts anyone for any reason - drunk, sober, shooting dope in the bathroom - you always get welcomed in.

    So...how about you dont talk about things you know NOTHING about.


    All he is trying to say is that there may be more than one way to approach the issue. Many people go into AA believing in God. The success rates have been debated for years - both by members and outside observers. The success rate seems relatively high for people who stay in "program" but the vast majority do not. Arguably, the most important thing is discovering what caused an individual to abuse a substance in the first place. Until that is done, the issue confronted and put to rest in some way, no amount of prayer, sharing or service is gong to make a big difference. You can go to a meeting every hour on the hour - as many do - but until you confront the cause you are just shifting time and keeping busy. If that works, than great but how much of a life is that? There are also many that disagree with the concept that it is a disease that will never be cured. If that was the stance taken with any other disease we would all be dead by now. You never go into a room full of cancer patients and hear them say they just have to accept the disease as a relentless demon and just pray they can get thru the day. There have not been major updates to the program in decades and since participation is often linked to the judicial system, healthcare, insurance etc that needs to be addressed. Research and treatment in ANY other disease is on-going and constantly evolving. The most important thing is if something works stick with it but it may not be a bad idea to remain open to further options.
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    Jan 25, 2011 6:11 PM GMT
    The LGBT center hosts a number of 12-step groups that are LGBT focused. here is the schedule of meetings. I am not familiar enough with this to know but there may be a group (Al-Anon?) that you could attend yourself, either before you get your friend there or if he won't go, to get a sense of what you can be doing to help and help you cope with being in relationship with someone who is an addict.
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    Jan 25, 2011 6:38 PM GMT
    ok. thanks for the suggestions. he is a functional alcoholic--by which i mean he can hold a job and wouldn't go into withdrawal without a drink. i don't think he'll be into the group thing. he'd probably prefer one-on-one therapy. will keep u guys posted. thanks
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    Jan 25, 2011 6:48 PM GMT
    I have also asked a guy at our church who is an addiction specialist in NJ for a referral to someone in the city. Will let you know what his response is.
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    Jan 25, 2011 7:20 PM GMT
    Cash said

    All he is trying to say is that there may be more than one way to approach the issue. Many people go into AA believing in God. The success rates have been debated for years - both by members and outside observers. The success rate seems relatively high for people who stay in "program" but the vast majority do not. Arguably, the most important thing is discovering what caused an individual to abuse a substance in the first place. Until that is done, the issue confronted and put to rest in some way, no amount of prayer, sharing or service is gong to make a big difference. You can go to a meeting every hour on the hour - as many do - but until you confront the cause you are just shifting time and keeping busy. If that works, than great but how much of a life is that? There are also many that disagree with the concept that it is a disease that will never be cured. If that was the stance taken with any other disease we would all be dead by now. You never go into a room full of cancer patients and hear them say they just have to accept the disease as a relentless demon and just pray they can get thru the day. There have not been major updates to the program in decades and since participation is often linked to the judicial system, healthcare, insurance etc that needs to be addressed. Research and treatment in ANY other disease is on-going and constantly evolving. The most important thing is if something works stick with it but it may not be a bad idea to remain open to further options.


    he didnt say that. he said avoid any 12 step program because "as he understands it" its bullshit. he didnt offer any further suggestions. the worst thing you can do is slander something before you give someone the chance to discover if it works for them.
    and yer right..alot of people go into AA believing in god..im wrong for stating otherwise and a dick for acting like i know everything about everyone who goes in or who deserves to be there...however i really dont think because someone believes in god it doesnt make them spiritually bankrupt which is more the case of people who are first entering the halls.
    to be honest, i dont go to aa anymore and its not because of the program but moreso because of the people. i was sick of hearing about people bitching about how their toaster broke. the message got lost for me.
    yer right man, the success rate is low...but if you follow the program as it is laid out there is no way you can fail. to state otherwise is completely false. the number one thing you are told in AA is to keep coming. eventually youll get it..maybe you wont but if you stay sober and keep coming its better than the alternative. going to meetings all day isnt a way to live yer life but if you are willing to do whatever it takes to get sober and its what you really want because going back to the way you used to live is too much to bare...those are generally the people who i found succeed. people enter aa and think they can sit there and no work and get sober. anyone can be dry. recovery is hard work.
    as far as the most important thing being finding the reason you use..i kind of disagree to a point. yes like i think its important to figure out what feelings you wanna kill or whatever but also i mean..at the end of the day alot of people drink and get high cuz they like it. if it wasnt fun at some point you wouldnt have kept doing it...i got high when i was happy, when i was sad when it was raining, snowing..whatever. i just loved it. then when it became a full time job...thats where things got crazy.
    as far as the disease part goes..yer right. thats a tricky one. i think its a disease is the same way that depression is...thats a tough one for me cuz i want it to be a disease where you take a pill and its gone and its not.
    as far as no updates in AA...i disagree completely. the big book is frequently updated. the stories part in the end which is (i think) the most important part of the big book because its where alot of people find someone they identify with has been updated frequently over the years. it has come to include stories of other cultures, transgendered people, gay guys, expatriots..whatever kind of person might end up in AA there is a chance that there story is in the big book.
    I think at the end of the day the old timers would ask why would we change the program if it works? Along time ago the only people who came to AA were the ones who were so bad off they had nowhere else to go besides the insane asylum. In bill's story he talks about transforming that guy who goes in front of the judge a few months later...those were the original alcoholics. Now its like...every kid in high school is strung out by 11th grade. Of course its gonna be harder to have a success rate for kids who have serious substance abuse problems before the age of 21. drugs changed AA in a big way.

    Yeah like of course other options should be explored but AA is still taught in rehabs, detoxes, stabilization programs, halfway houses...whatever you name it. There is something special about being in a room full of people who share a common pain and struggle as you. I would hate for someone to miss out on that because some dude who isnt an alcoholic thinks AA is bullshit.
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    Jan 25, 2011 8:07 PM GMT
    I'm sorry I didn't elaborate which parts of the film I thought was most interesting and represented my point of view.

    in the last part of the film there are actually offered several alternatives to AA and it is stressed that AA may actually work for those who embrace the values of those 12 steps.

    I find it hard to believe that the programme I embedded should be infested with lies about the AA. The part about courts ordering people into 12 steps, creating a monopoly on treatment when there's no science or statistics to back up that it actually works, is just insane. That alone is enough for me to to accept the bullshit label the programme suggests.

    I don't have to know everything about the AA to form an opinion about it. I know enough to say that from my point of view, their approach is irrational.
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    Jan 25, 2011 8:10 PM GMT
    nyc_guy saidok. thanks for the suggestions. he is a functional alcoholic--by which i mean he can hold a job and wouldn't go into withdrawal without a drink. i don't think he'll be into the group thing. he'd probably prefer one-on-one therapy. will keep u guys posted. thanks
    Unfortunately what you posted here says to me he isnt really committed. (have loads of experience with substance abusers)..
    Sorry but thats the hard cold truth.
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    Jan 26, 2011 2:43 AM GMT
    Contact the Center in New York. Center for CBT, they are excellent and headed under Stephen Phillipson, in Manhattan.


  • barriehomeboy

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    Jan 26, 2011 2:48 AM GMT
    I agree with the manhattan guy. There aren't 12 steps to getting sober. There is only the first step. No reasons to get drunk. That's so hard!
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    Jan 26, 2011 4:57 AM GMT
    judoguy saidI'm sorry I didn't elaborate which parts of the film I thought was most interesting and represented my point of view.

    in the last part of the film there are actually offered several alternatives to AA and it is stressed that AA may actually work for those who embrace the values of those 12 steps.

    I find it hard to believe that the programme I embedded should be infested with lies about the AA. The part about courts ordering people into 12 steps, creating a monopoly on treatment when there's no science or statistics to back up that it actually works, is just insane. That alone is enough for me to to accept the bullshit label the programme suggests.

    I don't have to know everything about the AA to form an opinion about it. I know enough to say that from my point of view, their approach is irrational.


    fair enough man...i think there is plenty wrong with AA and I definitely have a very skewed view of it because I spent years in and out. Its not for everyone but it is for alot of people. Ive seen like the worst of the fucking worst turn their lives around with the help of the program. like actual fucking miracles. and they were there for me when i needed them and im loyal to a fault.
    in the end though like from what ive seen and heard not just here but from lots of people is that people are more concerned with destroying the reputation of a non profit organization then they are with helping anyone.
    like yeah ok lets say AA is total bullshit right? AA stays outside of politcs and public affairs and doesnt get involved on the level of press, radio or film. they dont defend themselves or slander other groups or have a speaker or representative for the whole of the group. their primary purpose is to help the alcoholic who still suffers. i mean all AA is trying to do is stop people from the lifecrushing force that is addiction and i really dont think thats bullshit at all.
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    Jan 26, 2011 12:29 PM GMT
    firstly to the OP...if you're buddy hasn't hit HIS rock bottom, then it won't work...hard true fact.

    Secondly regarding the debate on AA....I'm an alcoholic and I know that we all find our own way to recover if we look and want it...AA, NA, three guys meeting on a picnic bench.....whatever works. I did it alone, with my wife and was sober for 22 years up until about a month ago when I got drunk...I have been sober since but it IS a constant vigil, for whatever reason. All the debate in the world is moot unless they do discover a cure.....but i'm not so sure there is one...........Keith
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    Jan 26, 2011 3:48 PM GMT
    stilsurchin saidfirstly to the OP...if you're buddy hasn't hit HIS rock bottom, then it won't work...hard true fact.

    Secondly regarding the debate on AA....I'm an alcoholic and I know that we all find our own way to recover if we look and want it...AA, NA, three guys meeting on a picnic bench.....whatever works. I did it alone, with my wife and was sober for 22 years up until about a month ago when I got drunk...I have been sober since but it IS a constant vigil, for whatever reason. All the debate in the world is moot unless they do discover a cure.....but i'm not so sure there is one...........Keith


    all true man. the whole thing with the rock bottom..like it says in the big book..you only hit yer rock bottom when you stop digging..and as far as a cure...there is no way to cure a spiritual emptiness..i mean theres an anabuse and opiate blockers and antidepressants...but at the core of it (at least in my opinion) to be connected with something bigger in the world (you can call it god if you want...definitely doesnt have to do with religion unless you want it to) is the only way.

    lots of people say they drink and do drugs against their will. i think thats fucking bullshit. if there is your will and gods will..its definitely not gods will for to you fuck yourself up so it has to be your own will. then its definitely a choice. then you definitely can stop.

    at least thats how i feel. its a really heavy topic for me cuz its effected my life in such extreme ways.
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    Jan 26, 2011 7:31 PM GMT
    blackstrap said
    Cash said

    All he is trying to say is that there may be more than one way to approach the issue. Many people go into AA believing in God. The success rates have been debated for years - both by members and outside observers. The success rate seems relatively high for people who stay in "program" but the vast majority do not. Arguably, the most important thing is discovering what caused an individual to abuse a substance in the first place. Until that is done, the issue confronted and put to rest in some way, no amount of prayer, sharing or service is gong to make a big difference. You can go to a meeting every hour on the hour - as many do - but until you confront the cause you are just shifting time and keeping busy. If that works, than great but how much of a life is that? There are also many that disagree with the concept that it is a disease that will never be cured. If that was the stance taken with any other disease we would all be dead by now. You never go into a room full of cancer patients and hear them say they just have to accept the disease as a relentless demon and just pray they can get thru the day. There have not been major updates to the program in decades and since participation is often linked to the judicial system, healthcare, insurance etc that needs to be addressed. Research and treatment in ANY other disease is on-going and constantly evolving. The most important thing is if something works stick with it but it may not be a bad idea to remain open to further options.


    he didnt say that. he said avoid any 12 step program because "as he understands it" its bullshit. he didnt offer any further suggestions. the worst thing you can do is slander something before you give someone the chance to discover if it works for them.
    and yer right..alot of people go into AA believing in god..im wrong for stating otherwise and a dick for acting like i know everything about everyone who goes in or who deserves to be there...however i really dont think because someone believes in god it doesnt make them spiritually bankrupt which is more the case of people who are first entering the halls.
    to be honest, i dont go to aa anymore and its not because of the program but moreso because of the people. i was sick of hearing about people bitching about how their toaster broke. the message got lost for me.
    yer right man, the success rate is low...but if you follow the program as it is laid out there is no way you can fail. to state otherwise is completely false. the number one thing you are told in AA is to keep coming. eventually youll get it..maybe you wont but if you stay sober and keep coming its better than the alternative. going to meetings all day isnt a way to live yer life but if you are willing to do whatever it takes to get sober and its what you really want because going back to the way you used to live is too much to bare...those are generally the people who i found succeed. people enter aa and think they can sit there and no work and get sober. anyone can be dry. recovery is hard work.
    as far as the most important thing being finding the reason you use..i kind of disagree to a point. yes like i think its important to figure out what feelings you wanna kill or whatever but also i mean..at the end of the day alot of people drink and get high cuz they like it. if it wasnt fun at some point you wouldnt have kept doing it...i got high when i was happy, when i was sad when it was raining, snowing..whatever. i just loved it. then when it became a full time job...thats where things got crazy.
    as far as the disease part goes..yer right. thats a tricky one. i think its a disease is the same way that depression is...thats a tough one for me cuz i want it to be a disease where you take a pill and its gone and its not.
    as far as no updates in AA...i disagree completely. the big book is frequently updated. the stories part in the end which is (i think) the most important part of the big book because its where alot of people find someone they identify with has been updated frequently over the years. it has come to include stories of other cultures, transgendered people, gay guys, expatriots..whatever kind of person might end up in AA there is a chance that there story is in the big book.
    I think at the end of the day the old timers would ask why would we change the program if it works? Along time ago the only people who came to AA were the ones who were so bad off they had nowhere else to go besides the insane asylum. In bill's story he talks about transforming that guy who goes in front of the judge a few months later...those were the original alcoholics. Now its like...every kid in high school is strung out by 11th grade. Of course its gonna be harder to have a success rate for kids who have serious substance abuse problems before the age of 21. drugs changed AA in a big way.

    Yeah like of course other options should be explored but AA is still taught in rehabs, detoxes, stabilization programs, halfway houses...whatever you name it. There is something special about being in a room full of people who share a common pain and struggle as you. I would hate for someone to miss out on that because some dude who isnt an alcoholic thinks AA is bullshit.


    For the record, I do not think you are a dick. Even if you are, I happen to like dicks - both figuratively and litterally - so I don't have a problem with that. And PLEASE know that I am genuinely happy that you have found peace and happiness in your life by whatever means.

    I am not referring to stories and profiles added to the back of a book. I am referring to the fundamental idea that something can NOT be overcome EVER. I realize that “old-timers” may adhere to the “if it aint broke don’t fix it” attitude but that is not what furthers progress. If that were the concept held by all we would not have modern air travel (the Wright brother’s flying machine worked just fine), indoor plumbing (ain’t nothing wrong with an outhouse) not to mention modern medicine (who needs to live beyond 35?). I actually am not talking about something being broken and needing fixing. I am talking about something that has worked and the possibility that it could work even better and more efficiently. Many old-timers and newbies become so attached to a principle – even a relatively healthy one – the concept of change threatens their very existence. It was not that long ago that the concept of the world being round was considered heresy.
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    Jan 27, 2011 7:56 AM GMT
    ok man but what i hear you say when you say that 'the fundamental idea that something can not be overcome ever' is that eventually there is a way that you can drink responsibly...and that is fucking crazy! i dont know yer story and i doubt you would have this strong and informed of an opinion if you didnt know anything but i mean fuck..like i dont really get what change you want to happen. if you follow AA you will not drink. if you dont drink yer life will get better. if you see the benefits of an improved life you might want to participate in a recovery. if you participate in recovery you might become the person you were meant to be. what more is there than that? AA isnt a room full of scientists and philosophers and inventors...its a room full of drunks. the beauty of AA is that everyone - from the top to the newcomer - all a bunch of drunks. they arent the ones trying to cure alcoholism, they are the ones who have suffered and are trying to get better. the people who should be 'looking beyond a flat earth' are the court systems and medical fields and whoever else but in the end (IN MY OPINION) they wouldnt know jack fucking shit about addicts if there were no addicts.

    its fucking tough man. addiction is not easy. it makes NO fucking sense. ive seen my friend systematically die off one after another after promising they wouldnt be like the person before them. it makes no sense im alive. i dont know why when i pick up heroin i cant stop. i dont give a fuck if some dude on here does an aztec pushup but i really with all my being want everyone who suffers from the 'dis-ease' of addiction to recover. ive found no better way.
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    Jan 27, 2011 9:00 AM GMT
    blackstrap saidok man but what i hear you say when you say that 'the fundamental idea that something can not be overcome ever' is that eventually there is a way that you can drink responsibly...and that is fucking crazy! i dont know yer story and i doubt you would have this strong and informed of an opinion if you didnt know anything but i mean fuck..like i dont really get what change you want to happen. if you follow AA you will not drink. if you dont drink yer life will get better. if you see the benefits of an improved life you might want to participate in a recovery. if you participate in recovery you might become the person you were meant to be. what more is there than that? AA isnt a room full of scientists and philosophers and inventors...its a room full of drunks. the beauty of AA is that everyone - from the top to the newcomer - all a bunch of drunks. they arent the ones trying to cure alcoholism, they are the ones who have suffered and are trying to get better. the people who should be 'looking beyond a flat earth' are the court systems and medical fields and whoever else but in the end (IN MY OPINION) they wouldnt know jack fucking shit about addicts if there were no addicts.

    its fucking tough man. addiction is not easy. it makes NO fucking sense. ive seen my friend systematically die off one after another after promising they wouldnt be like the person before them. it makes no sense im alive. i dont know why when i pick up heroin i cant stop. i dont give a fuck if some dude on here does an aztec pushup but i really with all my being want everyone who suffers from the 'dis-ease' of addiction to recover. ive found no better way.


    I actually am not talking about drinking again. I don't think that should the goal. I do think it is possible for for someone to get to the point that they simply do not care about alcohol (or whatever drug o'choice). It's not an issue because it simply is not of interest. It is possible.

    I don't know that I "want a change" but I am saying with any disease from TB to the common cold the goal is cure not acceptance of powerlessness. I think we should give addicts the same attention and energy that we do jock itch.

    You are absolutely 1 million per cent right - if someone is sober their life is automatically improving. No arguments there.

    As far as there being no philosophers, inventors or scientists in recovery - speak for yourself brother, you have'nt been listening in those meetings. I don't need to point out that addiction is oblivious to social class, alma mater and GPA. It's addicts that get to the other side THAT WILL eradicate addiction as a disease not courts, politicians or academics who have no real knowledge.

    Again, I really applaud you for surviving - it is an accomplishment far greater that discovering the world is round. It is akin to discoving gravity and still managing to defy it. You are lucky and truly gifted. Stay that way.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 27, 2011 9:42 AM GMT
    this is the only subject in the entire world that i get all fucking hify about. the anxiety i get when its even mentioned its ridiculous. yer totally right man. i think addicts are the smartest people in the world. anyone with that kind of inner torment is destined to do great things if they can pull it together. its a brain thats constantly moving even though most 'normal' people think otherwise. the junkies ive known are the funniest, smartest and most adventurous people of anyone ive ever known. its sad that so much wonderful gets lost in a giant ball of self destruction. were on the same side.