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Apr 01, 2008 9:22 AM GMT
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I’ve always been curious about why people chose to be believe in no life after death. I’m not asking if there is or isn’t a God I just asking why would you chose to believe something so… sad. Personally I think that no one knows if there is a God, they may seem so confident in their beliefs claiming that they know, with out a doubt, that there is a God but the mind is a powerful thing. We will know what we want to know and feel what we want to feel. I think that both possibilities seem so impossible that either could be true. If there isn’t life after death then the idea of a life form with the knowledge that one day, no matter what it does, it will die seems overwhelmingly cruel. And I understand that humans, being animals that still retain basic instincts, would strive unwavering to find a way to survive. But how would they do this, how does one survive death? This is one theory of how religion was started; we survive death by creating life after it. But I think the theory of evolution has just as many holes as religion. How did we, and only we evolve?
Clarifying “evolution does exist, but I just think that the idea that we evolved seems radical, but I DO NOT know much about it so my opinion means barely more than nothing”
My question is – Why would you chose to hope for no life after eath. Sure the ideas of religion and heaven are very much like a fantasy where all our dreams (or the dreams of their founders) will come true but why wouldn’t you hope for life to continue. If you don’t think there is life after death that’s one thing but why accept it? Why not hope? If religion was started by people creating their own perfect world and calling it heaven then why not create your own heaven and hope for it to be there when your life comes to an end?
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Apr 01, 2008 9:52 AM GMT
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Atheism seems a bit hypocritical to me.
The atheists I've talked to have said they don't want to buy into the existence of a deity (or deities) because there's no solid proof. However, there's also no solid proof that deities don't exist. Thus, isn't atheism just as extreme a claim as the claim that there's a higher power?
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Apr 01, 2008 9:53 AM GMT
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And I definitely have a double-negative in that response.
I apologize.
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Apr 01, 2008 10:15 AM GMT
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I don't see the problem with Atheism. It's a personal choice whether you believe in a god or not.
At least atheists only use their arguments about there not being a god in reply to the constant harping on about god, retribution and after-life they have to put up with from believers.
If you need to believe in a higher power to somehow validate your existance - then that's fine for you. But please don't expect me (as an atheist) to live by your (often vague and contradictory) rules.
Just because someone choses not to believe in God doesn't make them sad or inadequate. I try to live a decent life, contribute to our society, and have a bit of fun. I just don't see the point in wasting my time worshipping something that doesn't exist.
Loz
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Apr 01, 2008 10:20 AM GMT
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This is something akin to why would someone choose to be gay? I don't consider myself to be an atheist but I certainly don't believe in what the Churches and the rest of the organized religions teach us
If believing that there is a man up there in the clouds
looking down at us and determining what we do down here
.... Mazel tov
But don't label anyone else's beliefs as sad
Because someone can then turn around and say the samething about your beliefs and come up with similar rationalizations as to why
As far as evolution having as many holes?
There are no holes in evolutionary science except the ones someone who doesn't understand told you are there
Evolution exists and continues to shape the living things here on earth as sure as the sun rises every morning
... HERE there is no room for beliefs
if you don't think that's true your closing your mind
and THAT is where the true danger of religion lies
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Apr 01, 2008 10:25 AM GMT
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By believing in nothing, you're still believing in something.
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Apr 01, 2008 10:44 AM GMT
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Apr 01, 2008 11:39 AM GMT
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Christ, another religion-atheism argument. LOL Park_FourIf you don’t think there is life after death that’s one thing but why accept it? Why not hope? If religion was started by people creating their own perfect world and calling it heaven then why not create your own heaven and hope for it to be there when your life comes to an end? See? You yourself admit that the reason you believe is because you are afraid of a meaningless life and the concept of REAL dying without the life after death promises of religion. Evolution has holes, but not as humongous as Creation. And because I'm atheist doesn't mean we automatically agree about the particulars of Evolution, nor worship Science as a replacement religion. Aaron_MatthewThe atheists I've talked to have said they don't want to buy into the existence of a deity (or deities) because there's no solid proof. However, there's also no solid proof that deities don't exist. Thus, isn't atheism just as extreme a claim as the claim that there's a higher power? huh? Boy 1: I have a frog in my room. Boy 2: Show me. Boy 1: I will not. But I have a frog in my room. Boy 2: Prove it. Boy 1: You think I'm lying? Prove that I DON'T have a frog in my room. Boy 2:  Aaron_Matthew
By believing in nothing, you're still believing in something. Ugh. |
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Apr 01, 2008 1:58 PM GMT
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I'm agnostic.
That means I believe in something, some sort of higher power, but we as humans will never know or understand what it is.
I don't believe in Christianity. I don't beleive Jesus was a messiah. I don't believe in the bible nor creation.
We aren't the only ones to have evolved. Really? EVERY living creature around us has evolved in their own way.
To me, Christianity is a fairy tale. All religion is.
Until humans are no longer afraid of death, religion will always play a large role in our lives.
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Apr 01, 2008 3:35 PM GMT
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TexanMan: a lot of people don't fear death because of their religious beliefs.
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Apr 01, 2008 3:36 PM GMT
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Most atheists I am aware of are recovering Catholics or fundie Protestants of some stripe. They have been so abused at the hands of hateful dogma that they have run far and fast in the opposite direction, and take great pride and pleasure in telling the devout that we are delusional.
I myself fled a fundie upbringing (Southern Baptist, go figure) and spat upon all religion for many years. I was brought back to Christianity by a brush with the Episcopal Church, which is all about Christ's message of unconditional love and social justice, not who is damned to eternal hellfire. We hardly even talk about hell. Some other things that are mostly off the table:
Virgin Birth? - Nope
Divine orgins of Jesus? - Nope
Resurrection? - Only as metaphor
Heaven/hell? - Almost never (especially Hell). A note on that, while I'm here. We liberal Christians have a rough time with the concept of evil. Conservative Christians have a rough time with the concept of good.
The bulk of the Old Testament only comes up in proscribed readings, mostly because they're part of the liturgy and have to be done. I have the hardest time talking to nonbelievers because of that damned first third of the Bible, they never seem to get past it.
I have tried on several occasions to advocate my form of Christianity as modern, intelligent, questioning and consumed with improving this world rather than the next
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Apr 01, 2008 3:36 PM GMT
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I am also agnostic. The idea of there being a God is not strange to me, but that there is a prescribed religion and we are all playing Russian rhoulette with our choice is completely absurd. I grew up in a home that was not the least bit fanatical. My parents were somewhat religious but they didn't overwhelm me with their views or push me in any certain direction. Because I grew up in the Bible Belt and am gay and felt the pressures of religion to "fix" the latter I became a Christian at 16 and stayed that way into my late 20s. But then something clicked for me. I just couldn't see any of it anymore. First the concept of hell started looking ridiculous and pointless, then the devil went to the wayside. And that's when I realized that Jesus ALWAYS seemed to me to be an ironic and iconic distraction from God. That's when it all came tumbling down. I thought that when I got off the Jesus train it'd be like being stranded in the middle of the desert, but it was more like finding one's self in the middle of a great city. I've never been happier with my religious choice. That all being said I can see why someone would be atheist. It's all about what you can qualify in your mind. I always ignored the fact that I couldn't understand WHY Jesus had to die on the cross and HOW that was a supreme "sacrifice" if he was going to return the heaven from which he came. Wasn't 33 years out of his eternal life just a minor distraction? And isn't a true sacrifice something that you will do without forever? I can see these kinds of ideas being applied to God and coming up short for some people. I myself have a hard time believing that thought and reasoning just happen, and that human capability is what convinces me there is a God, though what he is like will be a mystery unless I see him, which would be nice because I've got lots of questions!  |
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Apr 01, 2008 3:37 PM GMT
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I chose to be an atheist because it reflects my high IQ. WTF? Nobody chooses what to believe. You either believe it or you don't. You're convinced or you're not.
I wonder - are there more poor in the world, or more Christians?
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Apr 01, 2008 3:52 PM GMT
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This thread is more interesting than most of our religion threads because Park_Four has pointed out a basic difference between theists and atheists: Why wouldn't you believe in something that's so emotionally appealing? vs. Why is emotional appeal sufficient reason to believe in something?
Those of us who don't believe have trouble even understanding Park's question. And the responses that follow show that some people believe in something appealing unless there is reason not to, while others (me included) think that you shouldn't believe in the existence of something unless you have reason to.
That's a basic epistemological difference that goes beyond the question of God, and I wonder this difference is consistently apparent in other areas of our lives.
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Apr 01, 2008 3:55 PM GMT
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Food for thought: some of the posters here make it sound like atheism is a dirty, deviant 'choice,' made out of a desire to be contrary or make a statement. Don't some people claim the same of homosexuality?
I never made a conscious choice to place no faith or belief in religion, organized or otherwise...the need to place my faith in a deity has simple never been necessary to me. It's as simple - and undefined, yet fundamentally intrinsic - as that. I don't expect anyone to follow my beliefs, nor do I feel that religious faith is misguided.
Simply put, I don't ask people to justify their faith to me, as by definition faith is something that can't be justified...and I ask to be afforded the same consideration.
Edit: oops, I took too long thinking and writing. Excellent points, McGay and Squarejaw.
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Apr 01, 2008 3:56 PM GMT
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My dad was an atheist, I classify myself as agnostic. I don't think about whether there is a "God" or not, to me it does not matter. I don't care if there is an afterlife or not, it does not impact on my behaviour one way or another.
I do wonder what started the whole process billions of years ago, and what existed before then, that to me is fascinating.
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Apr 01, 2008 4:01 PM GMT
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jbedwards saidMy dad was an atheist, I classify myself as agnostic. I don't think about whether there is a "God" or not, to me it does not matter. I don't care if there is an afterlife or not, it does not impact on my behaviour one way or another.
I do wonder what started the whole process billions of years ago, and what existed before then, that to me is fascinating. I wonder if there is a special place in heaven with extra ice cream and candy for the good looking ones. |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:09 PM GMT
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I think the attitude of atheism is sad is part of the holier than thou dilemma we find ourselves in when people who dont believe in the necessity of churches and religion to dictate how they go about life.
The agnostic in me tho says it is sad that the inadequacy of your mind leads to failure to understand the purpose of life. Hmmmm now the question remains what is the meaning of life? Is it Propagation, husbandry and development of all organisms on this planet, not just ones that subscribe to a bunch of scribblings based on a system to control the masses.
We are here to serve a purpose to keep this planet going and at the end of our days we then in turn revert to organic matter to feed the planet and enable the next generation to come to prosper. Heck you could even be of the belief that we are to be the fossil of a future species you never know.
But when you are dead you are dead. Thats it no afterlife sorry so make the most of what you have now as that concept was just to give the poor in the street something to aspire to while their masters beat the stuffing out of them for not working hard enough.
I respect your view point though and do not criticise you for your view point or ram my view point down others throats at every given opportunity, something which sadly is lacking from the other side of the court.
And as for this comment "Why not hope? If religion was started by people creating their own perfect world and calling it heaven then why not create your own heaven and hope for it to be there when your life comes to an end?"
I would rather channel my energies into making the most of this life and if you were truly religious you would cherish the life that a God has given you not hope for a better chance second time around in your Utopia
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Apr 01, 2008 4:09 PM GMT
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I believe in the mundaneity of our existence (i.e. there is no divinity, no consciousness driving us with purpose) because that's what I have faith in.
My faith does not go toward a deity or innate purpose and I will not profess faith in something that I do not have faith in.
This confused me when I experienced people trying to convert me (to Christianity): why would they have me claim faith in something I did not have faith in? Why would they have me lie before their deity?
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Park_Four, you may want to read at least the introductory pieces of the Theory of Evolution before attempting to discount it.
The Theory of Evolution does not merely rely upon human evolution; it relies upon observances of all observable organic beings and how they and their biologies interact over time. All beings evolve, changing characteristics based on biological and environmental circumstances (particularly necessities).
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Apr 01, 2008 4:10 PM GMT
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Squarejaw saidepistemological There's gotta be a special place in heaven for handsome men who can use the word "epistemological" and look good in a mouse costume. .... I am athesist for any god like the christian or jewish god...and I dont even consider elephant-headed gods, because of all the evil and suffering in the world. No god worthy of the name could allow what goes on here on Earth. |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:11 PM GMT
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Sad? The fact that something as amazing and complex as life can arise from chaos, simply by the nature of chaotic dynamics is *sad?*
Now, I'm... not atheist (we'll leave it at that) but there's nothing "sad" about living your life for your life, living it HERE and NOW for the sake of HERE and NOW. There's nothing sad about the amazement you can feel about the amazing beauty and complexity of systems maintaining organization in the face of the the universal shift towards entropy.
There are many many very happy atheists in the world. They really don't need your pity.
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Apr 01, 2008 4:12 PM GMT
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Ok sorry that I offended some people by labeling their belief system as sad, I didn’t mean to offend but I won’t take it back either. Dying and disappearing into nothing is sad, for me at least. It’s not sad that atheists believe it; it’s just a sad though that once you die your mind will no longer exist and you’ll never see your family or friends again.
Laurence and Sedative 14, you said that I need to believe that there is a god because I need validation or I’m scared of a meaningless life. You’re a little off. If there wasn’t life after death that wouldn’t mean that this life has no meaning, in fact it would give it more meaning because this would be our only shot at living. I wasn’t trying to harp; I just was asking a question. Do you hope that there is life after death? I know you don’t think there is I just wanted to know if you hope there is.
GQjock – I should apologies for not wording my paragraph correctly. I know evolution exists, it would be impossible to deny. I don’t know much about evolution so it’s not like opinion about it means much I was just trying say that the idea that we evolved into the logical, intelligent beings we are today seems almost impossible to me. The ‘idea’ seems impossible but that may be because I don’t know much about it. I do however think it makes more sense than a man in the clouds watching over us.
Original714 – thanks I’ll watch them as soon as I get home.
So I’ll ask again because no one has answered it yet. I know you don’t think there is life after death but do you hope there is?
ps sorry for offending people, I wasn’t trying to harp.
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Apr 01, 2008 4:13 PM GMT
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NickoftheNorth saidI believe in the mundaneity of our existence (i.e. there is no divinity, no consciousness driving us with purpose) because that's what I have faith in.
My faith does not go toward a deity or innate purpose and I will not profess faith in something that I do not have faith in.
This confused me when I experienced people trying to convert me (to Christianity): why would they have me claim faith in something I did not have faith in? Why would they have me lie before their deity?
Because to a follower of religion their blinkered view point is that you are a sinner and purely denying the true existance. Such is their level of contempt for the rest of society you are just waiting to find "your light". Its no different to the Witch drownings really! |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:14 PM GMT
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I find people who are amazed at the existence of life are also ignorant of biochemistry.
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Apr 01, 2008 4:18 PM GMT
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Park_Four saidOk sorry that I offended some people by labeling their belief system as sad, I didn’t mean to offend but I won’t take it back either. Dying and disappearing into nothing is sad, for me at least. It’s not sad that atheists believe it; it’s just a sad though that once you die your mind will no longer exist and you’ll never see your family or friends again.
Laurence and Sedative 14, you said that I need to believe that there is a god because I need validation or I’m scared of a meaningless life. You’re a little off. If there wasn’t life after death that wouldn’t mean that this life has no meaning, in fact it would give it more meaning because this would be our only shot at living. I wasn’t trying to harp; I just was asking a question. Do you hope that there is life after death? I know you don’t think there is I just wanted to know if you hope there is.
So I’ll ask again because no one has answered it yet. I know you don’t think there is life after death but do you hope there is?
ps sorry for offending people, I wasn’t trying to harp.
No I dont hope there is in the slightest. I believe our energies are channelled back into the planet, I believe our memories we leave behind with others are the only form of life after death. In fact it is the very act of memory that keeps a person alive. I am stil not going to shave my head and call myself a Budhist tho! |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:21 PM GMT
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Park_Four said...Dying and disappearing into nothing is sad, for me at least. It’s not sad that atheists believe it; it’s just a sad though that once you die your mind will no longer exist and you’ll never see your family or friends again.
So I’ll ask again because no one has answered it yet. I know you don’t think there is life after death but do you hope there is? Oh, but there is life after death. Somewhere, a pretty little flower will be smiling and chirp, in a little flower voice, "thank you, oh thank you, good sir, for returning those nutrients you've hoarded all these years so that I might germinate and blossom." Okay, that was a little flippant. To be perfectly serious: no. It doesn't make me sad, and I don't hope for it. |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:21 PM GMT
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Park_Four You talk about "both possibilities" -- as if it's a choice between no God and the One. There are other alternatives, none of which have much appeal to me either (but I am pretty ignorant about alternative cosmologies -- maybe there's one out there that I'd find convincing), but which do have great appeal in many parts of the world.
My problem with the One is that I have no idea what people are talking about when they talk about God. I'll admit that it is, I guess, POSSIBLE that holy writ is literally true (leaving out the "which bible" question), but it seems pretty obvious to me at least that it is not true. It's not sad for me to reject the literal truth of the Bible -- the opposite would be sad, to believe in something I am nearly certain is not true.
I do pray, though as I said I'm not sure what or who or where or when this God is that I pray to. It makes me feel better to do so, so I do it. I'm willing to admit that praying is not just a way of passing time for me, but I'm not sure what its effect is beyond that I get some relief from it. (Sheesh, I have just made prayer sound like jerking off.)
Personally, I can't take the idea of an afterlife seriously. Sure, I don't want to die, but I am too much of a materialist to think that an afterlife is a possibility. I saw someone die once -- he was there, and then his body was there. His afterlife is that I'm writing about him now, as far as I'm concerned.
If God is merely the survival instinct, Park Four, you have reduced him to a point where you might as well call yourself an atheist. At least that's what a lot of serious holy rollers would tell you. The other ones would say you had an apercu, and then use pseudo logic to get you from your appreciation of something in nature to concluding that the world was created in six calendar days.
This all sounds cynical. It isn't. It's just how I view things now. A guy not without hope, but with too much doubt to be able to state with any degree of linguistic clarity what he is hoping for.
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Apr 01, 2008 4:23 PM GMT
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Ok Diverscience, I don’t think any of that is sad. It’s just sad to think that when you die it’s all over. That’s all. I do not pity atheists because I don’t think they’re stupid or misguided; I just wanted to ask if they hope there is life after death even though they think there isn’t. Cause that’s how I am. I think the possibility of there being life after death is minimal but I really really hope there is. I was just trying to see if anyone else shared that view. Though apparently I’m retarded in the way I asked that question. So please forgive me for that
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Apr 01, 2008 4:26 PM GMT
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apercu
Main Entry: aper·çu
Pronunciation: ˌa-pər-ˈsü
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural aperçus -ˈsüz
Etymology: French, from aperçu, past participle of apercevoir to perceive, from Old French aperceivre, from a- (from Latin ad-) + perceivre to perceive — more at perceive
Date: 1828
1: a brief survey or sketch : outline
2: an immediate impression; especially : insight 2
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Apr 01, 2008 4:27 PM GMT
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If I wish really hard for a billion dollars in a swiss bank account will it happen?
That's about the same as a theist wishing an afterlife exists.
To put it simply there is ZERO evidence whatsoever that god(s) or any sort of afterlife exist. It's all wishful thinking.
I think most atheists (myself included) are just being realist. Why waste time wishing for something that won't come true.
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Apr 01, 2008 4:30 PM GMT
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Park_Four saidOk Diverscience, I don’t think any of that is sad. It’s just sad to think that when you die it’s all over. That’s all. I do not pity atheists because I don’t think they’re stupid or misguided; I just wanted to ask if they hope there is life after death even though they think there isn’t. Cause that’s how I am. I think the possibility of there being life after death is minimal but I really really hope there is. I was just trying to see if anyone else shared that view. Though apparently I’m retarded in the way I asked that question. So please forgive me for that It would be great to wake up on the other side, if things are pleasant there. But I dont expect it. I dont hope for it. And I dont worry about it because I wont know that I am dead. It's not like I am gonna be sitting in the dark all forlorn because I am not alive. I will no more know about my lack of existence after I die, than I did before I was born. What this should do is heighten one's awareness to enjoy this life while one can....and I dont mean the One in Australia...just any old one. ... |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:30 PM GMT
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Trance23 saidIf I wish really hard for a billion dollars in a swiss bank account will it happen?
That's about the same as a theist wishing an afterlife exists.
To put it simply there is ZERO evidence whatsoever that god(s) or any sort of afterlife exist. It's all wishful thinking.
I think most atheists (myself included) are just being realist. Why waste time wishing for something that won't come true. You say there is 0 evidence that all this afterlife stuff will come true. But how can you be so sure that it will not come true? Nobody knows. |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:32 PM GMT
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KissingPro said
You say there is 0 evidence that all this afterlife stuff will come true. But how can you be so sure that it will not come true? Nobody knows. If your car breaks down do you A) Pray god will zap it fixed? B) Call a tow and mechanic? Now can I prove god can't zap fix a car? Nope. But should I believe its possible? Um..No.... I don't need to sure of something to know it won't happen. Thats called logic and reason, something theists seem to lack. Believing in god because your afraid of the possibility of hell is just the fear tactic used by theists to continue their age old lie. |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:33 PM GMT
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KissingPro said[quote][cite]Trance23 said[/cite]If I wish really hard for a billion dollars in a swiss bank account will it happen?
That's about the same as a theist wishing an afterlife exists.
To put it simply there is ZERO evidence whatsoever that god(s) or any sort of afterlife exist. It's all wishful thinking.
I think most atheists (myself included) are just being realist. Why waste time wishing for something that won't come true. You say there is 0 evidence that all this afterlife stuff will come true. But how can you be so sure that it will not come true? Nobody knows.[/quote] He said there was 0 evidence for it and based his conclusion on that. |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:34 PM GMT
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As far as the religious aspect, I'm not technically an atheist. I don't have the core certainty of a lack of divinity that I feel is necessary to be an atheist, so I'm much more of an agnostic. I don't know if anything lies beyond death, and really, I don't feel any of you do either. But at the same point, I don't think it's accurate to say that this is what I choose to believe; I believe it because the basic makeup of my personality and mind demands empirical proof of such seemingly fantastic claims, and that without that sort of proof I'm intrinsically suspicious.
As for the evolution argument: please. The mere fact that you would state that only we have evolved is a strong indicator to me that you don't really know anything about evolutionary theory or practice. All species are evolving, constantly, even the ones like crocodiles which look very much the same as they did millions of years ago. Most changes are ones you can't see with the naked eye, and even the big ones are things which are hard to draw clear lines on.
For example, the most commonly used species definition in animals is Mayr's Biological Species Concept, whereby two groups are the same species if they can make fertile offspring, but are different if they can't. Therefore, horses and donkeys are different, because when you cross them and get a mule, it's sterile. But what about lions and tigers? In the wild, they seemingly never try to breed, but if you keep them together in captivity without mates of their own type, they sometimes will. One sex of the offspring are sterile; the other sex of offspring have very low fertility compared to either parental type, but are capable of breeding with either parent. Do you call lions and tigers separate species? Are they very close to having crossed the speciation threshold, but haven't reached it yet? The reality is fuzzy, because in evolution most things are processes, not one-time events--even when a new mutation first arises, it takes time for it to spread through a population and become the most common version of that sequence.
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Apr 01, 2008 4:35 PM GMT
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KissingPro said[quote][cite]jbedwards said[/cite]My dad was an atheist, I classify myself as agnostic. I don't think about whether there is a "God" or not, to me it does not matter. I don't care if there is an afterlife or not, it does not impact on my behaviour one way or another.
I do wonder what started the whole process billions of years ago, and what existed before then, that to me is fascinating. I wonder if there is a special place in heaven with extra ice cream and candy for the good looking ones.[/quote] Haha, butterscotch ripple please! Maybe in heaven ice cream does not cause your weight to go up like it does on the 3rd rock from the sun. |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:35 PM GMT
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Hey Caslon --
Dante has other plans for you after you die.
I'm so glad that stuff wasn't admitted into the holy canon, or I am so f****d. ;)
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Apr 01, 2008 4:37 PM GMT
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Caslon said[quote][cite]KissingPro said[/cite][quote][cite]Trance23 said[/cite]If I wish really hard for a billion dollars in a swiss bank account will it happen?
That's about the same as a theist wishing an afterlife exists.
To put it simply there is ZERO evidence whatsoever that god(s) or any sort of afterlife exist. It's all wishful thinking.
I think most atheists (myself included) are just being realist. Why waste time wishing for something that won't come true. You say there is 0 evidence that all this afterlife stuff will come true. But how can you be so sure that it will not come true? Nobody knows.[/quote] He said there was 0 evidence for it and based his conclusion on that.[/quote] ^ Clear evidence god doesn't exist. If man is created in gods own image and god is perfect then why does man have trouble using the quote system Sorry Caslon, not picking on you directly! |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:37 PM GMT
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Atheism is great because it's yet another facet in our collective inter-faith community.
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Apr 01, 2008 4:38 PM GMT
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Once again, mention Religion in a thread and you get a flock of nonbelievers rushing to it, like flies around cow shit. And that ant to bad until they start the usual nonsense of trying to insult anyone that believes in a god. It always amazes me how much, us believers annoy the nonbelievers Mike |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:41 PM GMT
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God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question--Why We Sufferby Bart D. Ehrman (Author) good book...but then all of Ehrman's are 
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Apr 01, 2008 4:41 PM GMT
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If I walked around saying all homosexuals are going to hell because its god's will would that annoy you? Now prove your gay loving version of god is any more real or correct than the gay hating god. While on the subject of god:  |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:42 PM GMT
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MikePhil saidOnce again, mention Religion in a thread and you get a flock of nonbelievers rushing to it, like flies around cow shit.
And that ant to bad until they start the usual nonsense of trying to insult anyone that believes in a god.
It always amazes me how much, us believers annoy the nonbelievers
Mike Well, Mikey, the title of the thread does, you know, directly address those that don't believe. It even asks us a question. Therefore, we flock in to see what's being asked and/or said. Amazing how that happens, huh? And most of us, coincidentally, have even tried to contribute to the discussion, not insult everyone else with broad, sweeping generalizations. |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:44 PM GMT
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Trance23 said[quote][cite]Caslon said[/cite][quote][cite]KissingPro said[/cite][quote][cite]Trance23 said[/cite]If I wish really hard for a billion dollars in a swiss bank account will it happen?
That's about the same as a theist wishing an afterlife exists.
To put it simply there is ZERO evidence whatsoever that god(s) or any sort of afterlife exist. It's all wishful thinking.
I think most atheists (myself included) are just being realist. Why waste time wishing for something that won't come true. You say there is 0 evidence that all this afterlife stuff will come true. But how can you be so sure that it will not come true? Nobody knows.[/quote] He said there was 0 evidence for it and based his conclusion on that.[/quote] ^ Clear evidence god doesn't exist. If man is created in gods own image and god is perfect then why does man have trouble using the quote system Sorry Caslon, not picking on you directly![/quote] There is something screwy with RJ's XML, that's all. It appears that it cant handle multiple nested quotes |
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Apr 01, 2008 4:51 PM GMT
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Lol ok I’m getting in over my head but I’m going to try to argue my points the best I can.
KissingPro Thank you by the way for at least humoring the idea.
Some above said they are realists and don’t want to waste there time hoping for something that’s not true. You don’t know with one hundred percent conviction that it isn’t true. But I know what you’re getting at. But let me say this.
There is this dude at the gym I work out at; he is there literally every time I go and most of the time he works out by himself. I really think he is a good looking guy and I saw him laugh once and just, I don’t know, wow I guess. Anyways he’s an incredibly good looking guy and I think it would be really cool if suddenly we start talking and become friends. Is it going to happen, probably not. But I hope it will. am I just wasting my time, ya most likely but it helps me enjoy the gym more when we meet eye contact and I know he sees me. So am I ignorant for hoping, no I’m not.
Caslon, I’ve read a lot of your posts in other forums and I really like what you have to say but here you said “it would be great if I woke up on the other side, if things are pleasant there.” Then you said you don’t expect it which makes sense cause you shouldn’t but then you said you don’t hope for it. Why would you not hope for something you want?
Bfg1 said we were here to serve a purpose to keep this planet going I’m going to have to argue, humanity as a whole would be more like a virus from the view point of the earth. But that is an entirely different forum topic. But I do agree with you that memories are an extremely important thing, they do make us what we are and without them we wouldn’t be us. Lol that’s actually one of my favorite things to talk about.
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Apr 01, 2008 4:53 PM GMT
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MikePhil
I think the thread is about atheism and so you're bound to get non-believers acting 'like flies around cow shit' (as you so nicely put it) giving their opinions.
Like a lot of religious people you don't seem to like that other people have different views to yourself.
Loz
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Apr 01, 2008 4:58 PM GMT
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Park_Four saidLol ok I’m getting in over my head but I’m going to try to argue my points the best I can.
Some above said they are realists and don’t want to waste there time hoping for something that’s not true. You don’t know with one hundred percent conviction that it isn’t true. But I know what you’re getting at. But let me say this.
Bfg1 said we were here to serve a purpose to keep this planet going I’m going to have to argue, humanity as a whole would be more like a virus from the view point of the earth. But that is an entirely different forum topic. But I do agree with you that memories are an extremely important thing, they do make us what we are and without them we wouldn’t be us. Lol that’s actually one of my favorite things to talk about.
Of course I know I'm right. Do invisible monsters exist under my bed? Nope. To consider something a possibility you require a reason. There is no reason with religion. Zero evidence and a story that is a clear fabrication and copy of older stories. Unless you can offer one shred of evidence then there is no valid reason to even consider the possibility of god(s) As for memories well like a computer they are a collection of data stored that can be retrieved. Of course were nothing like a computer, more complex yet less refined. We store everything we see and feel and can retrieve it as a memory yet not always complete or with clarity. |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:02 PM GMT
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Park_Four saidCaslon, I’ve read a lot of your posts in other forums and I really like what you have to say but here you said “it would be great if I woke up on the other side, if things are pleasant there.” Then you said you don’t expect it which makes sense cause you shouldn’t but then you said you don’t hope for it. Why would you not hope for something you want? I dont hope for it in the sense that I dont waste my time hoping for something that if it will be, it will be, and if it isnt, it isnt going to bother me anyway. Thanks for the compliment on my postings. |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:03 PM GMT
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There is one problem I have with atheism, you cannot prove there is not a "God" or ultimate power. I never argued with my Dad about this, there are some things that it is better off not to discuss (besides he was even more stubborn than me).
Whether there is a God is irrelevant in some ways. As long as people believe there is then their behaviour will be influenced by their beliefs (for good and bad) and that will continue to change the world we live in.
I am agnostic simply because that is what has come to me naturally. I used to fall asleep in church as a kid, and found sunday school a big bore. I do have a lot of appreciation for Christ's philosophy towards how to treat people, but I don't feel this compulsion to pray to a sky god or a superior being. I personally don't believe that religion has a strong impact on a person's morals and ethics. I have met religious people who truly live their beliefs, and others that are hypocrites. I have met non-religious people who would put some Christians to shame regarding morals and ethics, and others that could use a dose of Christian goodwill.
And finally if there is a "god" or "gods" it/they will likely be nothing what we imagined (certainly not in our image).
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Apr 01, 2008 5:04 PM GMT
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Caslon said[quote][cite]Park_Four said[/cite]Caslon, I’ve read a lot of your posts in other forums and I really like what you have to say but here you said “it would be great if I woke up on the other side, if things are pleasant there.” Then you said you don’t expect it which makes sense cause you shouldn’t but then you said you don’t hope for it. Why would you not hope for something you want? I dont hope for it in the sense that I dont waste my time hoping for something that if it will be, it will be, and if it isnt, it isnt going to bother me anyway. Also, I dont hope for it because I really dont think it will be. So why get my hopes up? hahaha Thanks for the compliment on my postings.[/quote] |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:06 PM GMT
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"Once again, mention Religion in a thread and you get a flock of nonbelievers rushing to it, like flies around cow shit"
MikePhil, you took a funny pill, right?
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Apr 01, 2008 5:06 PM GMT
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We all have the gift of choice in life. Thats really the answer to the original posters questions. Why do some embrace atheism? Because they want to. It's their choice.
It's interesting to read some of the answers by those who say they are atheist. Not all, but a few have pointed to christianity or religion as being such a turn off that the whole idea of God becomes a useless myth. I can understand that. My question would be, when did Christianity gain the market on God?
I believe in God. My choice. However, I refuse to believe in a God that is defined by a religion full of manipulation, judgement and hatred. In fact this type of God isn't logical to me.
Christianity suggests that God loved us before we were even born. In fact it goes further to say that God loves us so purely and on a level that we humans don't even understand. However, on a day of judgement this loving entity that loves us on a level we can't understand will have no problem sending some of us that he loves on this outrageous level straight to everlasting hell. It's things like this that aren't logical to me. If this man made God loves me on a level that I can't even comprehend, which I'm guessing is far greater than even I could ever love, there is no way he could condemn someone to the pain and suffering of a so called horrific hell for all eternity. At my level of love I could never do this to someone I love greatly.
So I get it when some choose not to embrace God. I love the line in Angels In America when Proctor is speaking to all the Angels and it is mentioned that God owes us all an apology. Based on the Churchs definition of God thats an awful thought. Their God would snuff me out if I dared to question all the whys and how comes and lay it at his feet. But thats their God. My God that I believe in would definitely be very humble and willing to apologize.
I'd like to personally tell every church off one by one and tell them to go home and stop using this type of God to manipulate one another and cast judgement on other peoples souls when the only soul that would matter would be your own if you are worried about being condemned for flipping off the neighbors kid for pissing you off. An extreme example but you get the point. If there is a day of judgement I believe my God is going to hold the church responsible for misrepresenting his/her/it's name.
On the flip side to all of this I'm interested in knowing this of those who don't embrace a God. If God was not defined by religion and were nothing more than just a peaceful entity what would be the problem in at least toying with the concept? Even if God weren't real? I mean if we do die and we truly cease to exist what would have been the harm? You didn't have to bow down to this God all you did was just reach out to this source of energy that maybe in your shittiest moment gave you some type of strength. Made you make it through a day you never thought you could make through all on your own. Perhaps your only gift back to this God was respecting life in general if he happened to be the breath or creator of life.
So I'm wondering... is Atheism "for some" not so much eliminating a God or higher being as it is a stand against fucked up religion that has potentially tainted the name God?
Since it all comes down to choice can't one make the choice to believe in evolution but also embrace a God minus the church telling you what God is or is not?
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Apr 01, 2008 5:09 PM GMT
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jbedwards saidWhether there is a God is irrelevant in some ways. Beautifully said. It's whether we believe in a God or not, or whether it matters to us that he/she/it/they exist(s) that ultimately matters. |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:16 PM GMT
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Laurence saidMikePhil
I think the thread is about atheism and so you're bound to get non-believers acting 'like flies around cow shit' (as you so nicely put it) giving their opinions.
Like a lot of religious people you don't seem to like that other people have different views to yourself.
Loz Oh there has been threads about religion and they were there too and well you know it. Now you have every right to your view and to express your view, but my problem is when you start to insult me because of my view. I have never insulted a nonbeliever because they do not believe. Mike |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:17 PM GMT
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zdrew78 said[quote][cite]jbedwards said[/cite]Whether there is a God is irrelevant in some ways. Beautifully said. It's whether we believe in a God or not, or whether it matters to us that he/she/it/they exist(s) that ultimately matters. [/quote] That sorta goes along with my question. Would it be of harm to make it matter? Would it cost you something to believe in a God? Not the churchs God but just a God in general? |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:20 PM GMT
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Hey Park_Four!
You sound like you are fearing the worst, as though there is no God, and no Christian heaven or life after death.
I remember when I was there.
My evolution from Protestant to Fundie to atheist was long, and fraught with troubling introspection. Having "seen" heaven, it was not something I wanted to give up.
But, it made sense to me. In fact, it was easy to go from Protestant to Fundie because I could easily see how sloppy and unauthoritative the church was, by merely reading the bible. So much of what was in the bible was in direct contradiction to what was being taught in church.
From fundie to atheist: the damage had been done--I had already learned to look at "authorities" with a skeptical eye. On more than one occasion, I caught the bible-thumpers in a blatant slip-up, either theologically or from a reasoning standpoint.
Then, before long, I was on that precipice. What if there was no God, no heaven. The deep despair I faced at the edge of that nothingness abyss was overwhelming. I had a few questions...of God.
Before I go on, let me ask...is this the direction you were going with this thread?
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Apr 01, 2008 5:20 PM GMT
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Park_Four,
What exactly do you believe? What's the content of this afterlife? What's the God you believe in like? How do you determine what's worth believing in and what's not?
I'm always interested in the answers to these questions, as if it's self-evident or, more honestly (on the part of the believer), a worthwhile "leap into the absurd" (but WHICH absurd? Why choose the one you choose?)?
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Apr 01, 2008 5:23 PM GMT
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Why is it that humans have this urge to try and explain God? This debate will always persist because one side with always try to convince the other that their belief is correct. No amount of discussion will ever get you a solid answer on this issue.
Atheist will claim they need visible proof to know God exists and Christians will claim you have to act by faith to believe it does.
It's an endless debate fueled by belief. You either choose to believe or not. God gave us a choice and if you hear the word and reject it that's your business but you will never be able to claim ignorance.
Personally, I have seen enough in this world to know that something greater than I exists. I live my life according to the Mantra "It would have been better to live my life as if there was a God and discover that there isn't than Live my life as if there wasn't a God and discover that there is"
(And I know some will claim, you're doing it out of fear or you've been drain washed by the media, church etc.....No. It's Belief)
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Apr 01, 2008 5:24 PM GMT
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Laurence saidMikePhil
I think the thread is about atheism and so you're bound to get non-believers acting 'like flies around cow shit' (as you so nicely put it) giving their opinions.
Like a lot of religious people you don't seem to like that other people have different views to yourself.
Loz Atheists are perfectly free to believe, or not, what they want, and I do not question their judgement. I have many friends that are atheists. They (or anyone) are not free to tell me that there is something wrong with my following the teachings of the humanistic philosopher Jesus. |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:25 PM GMT
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irishkcguy saidTexanMan: a lot of people don't fear death because of their religious beliefs. See, but that's the point. Religion began because we didn't understand life, and we feared death. Religion makes people feel better. |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:25 PM GMT
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Your post from the start is flawed. You've attached an emotion to atheism, sadness. That is highly biased, and seems to come from your own definition of happiness. Is anything more varied than each person's definition of happiness?
I'm not an atheist, but know atheists. Death to them seems to be more about a conversion of energy, which suggests a strong connection to this world. I don't consider that a very sad way to think.
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Apr 01, 2008 5:26 PM GMT
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jsttennis77 said[quote][cite]zdrew78 said[/cite][quote][cite]jbedwards said[/cite]Whether there is a God is irrelevant in some ways. Beautifully said. It's whether we believe in a God or not, or whether it matters to us that he/she/it/they exist(s) that ultimately matters. [/quote] That sorta goes along with my question. Would it be of harm to make it matter? Would it cost you something to believe in a God? Not the churchs God but just a God in general? [/quote] No, I don't think it would harm me to believe in a God, just as it doesn't harm me not to. I am not opposed in any way to believing in a God...I just don't, and that's the nature of belief. You can't make yourself go one way or another, I don't think. |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:27 PM GMT
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zdrew78 said[quote][cite]MikePhil said[/cite]Once again, mention Religion in a thread and you get a flock of nonbelievers rushing to it, like flies around cow shit.
And that ant to bad until they start the usual nonsense of trying to insult anyone that believes in a god.
It always amazes me how much, us believers annoy the nonbelievers
Mike Well, Mikey, the title of the thread does, you know, directly address those that don't believe. It even asks us a question. Therefore, we flock in to see what's being asked and/or said. Amazing how that happens, huh? And most of us, coincidentally, have even tried to contribute to the discussion, not insult everyone else with broad, sweeping generalizations. [/quote] Yes, it does address those that don't believe, but in this thread as in other threads about religion, you have the (not all) nonbelievers insulting and trying to belittle the believers beliefs. I used sweeping generalizations because that is what the (not all) nonbelievers do. It seems the only way to get my point across to them. Mike |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:28 PM GMT
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Believing in God does harm some people. There was a story in the news last week of a little girl who died because her moron parents were praying her illness away. Thank you, God.
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Apr 01, 2008 5:30 PM GMT
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Aaron_Matthew saidAtheism seems a bit hypocritical to me.
The atheists I've talked to have said they don't want to buy into the existence of a deity (or deities) because there's no solid proof. However, there's also no solid proof that deities don't exist. Thus, isn't atheism just as extreme a claim as the claim that there's a higher power? This position has never made sense to me. If someone were to tell me "unicorns are real" I would expect them to prove it before I believe it. Show me some kind of evidence that I can find credible and convincing. The onus isn't on me to prove the non-existence of something I've never seen and have no reason to believe in. For my part, I don't consider myself an atheist because while I don't believe in any of mankind's religions or any kind of divine intervention in the universe, but in the absence of hard scientific knowledge about how else the Big Bang could have come about, I'm left to consider that some kind of entity could have willed it to happen. But I can still understand and appreciate the atheist's position on that: "prove it." I also understand that the universe isn't defined by my wishful thinking. Even if I'm 'afraid of death' and *want* there to be something more after that, even if I want there to be a 'purpose' or a meaning to life, even if I want the comfort of some benevolent supreme being caring about me, that doesn't make it so. Wanting to believe-- because the alternative is bleak or whatever-- doesn't make the belief true, nor does it follow that anyone else should feel that same need. |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:31 PM GMT
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I still keep reading that many are defining God based on Christianity. Why does the Church hold the definition of God? Can't God be greater than, lesser than or something completely different then what the christian church claims it to be?
I've long since given up on the Church but yet I still believe in God. It just happens to be my choice of God. I don't look to an organization to define God for me.
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Apr 01, 2008 5:32 PM GMT
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MSUBioNerd I really agree with you. You say that people don’t know that there is life after death and I’m with one hundred percent. And you are also right when you say I know next to nothing about evolution but I never said it doesn’t exist in fact in my later posts which you may have scrolled over I said that evolution is undeniable.
And for some others above who think it’s annoying that people should decide how to govern there life on the factor of if there’s life after death I agree with you. People should live their life how they see fit and try to be a good person because it is the right thing to do, not because they think they might have to pay for what they do.
Laurence sorry that you were compared to flies around a pile of shit, I did start this thread to talk to people just like you, thus the title so I apologize. But this is a discussion and though I’m not trying ‘force my opinion’ on anyone I am expressing it and trying to help people understand it just like I’m trying to understand other people’s opinions.
Trance23 I disagree. Your analogies are pretty far fetched comparing religion to monsters under bed and when you compare memories to data on computers I guess I can see what you mean but a computer doesn’t base it’s operating system on the data it stores. But then you say were nothing like computers so I don’t know what you were trying to say other than memories are stored and can be retrieved.
Jbedwards – I’ve really enjoyed what you had to say, you seem to really have things figured out for yourself.
Jsttennis77 – I agree with you completely. The idea of organized religion seems promising but the actual thing really warps what God should be. The flaw is that religions are run by people and are filled with people.
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Apr 01, 2008 5:33 PM GMT
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Now this is a fascinating book examining the teachings of Jesus as they apply to our behavior here on Earth with no reference to divinity, heaven or any reward...  I never had the Beatitudes explained like this before. I heartily recommend it to theists, christians, and atheists. I think Jesus was right. But try to get people to do it. It would be neat to have a thread that discusses this book, chapter by chapter, a chapter a week, for those that want to participate. Now, let's see....how do we link this to sports??? ...  |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:34 PM GMT
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McGay saidBelieving in God does harm some people. There was a story in the news last week of a little girl who died because her moron parents were praying her illness away. Thank you, God. But thats pathetic. A halfwit could have told the parents that even a God would tell them to get their daughter to a fucking Doctor who is trained to heal their daughter. So really it wasn't God who fucked them up. It was a church's misrepresentation of God that fucked them up. God should never be considered some magician or Santa Claus. Although it is a bit ironic man has manipulated Jesus' birthday around Dec 25th. |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:35 PM GMT
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MikePhil, using sweeping generalizations also accomplishes something else: it often makes a person come across as a peevish thread-troll. Yes, this is a sensitive topic that sometimes elicits impassioned responses, but must we needlessly escalate things with inflammatory assessments that don't further the discussion in any meaningful way?
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Apr 01, 2008 5:36 PM GMT
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"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen F. Roberts
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Apr 01, 2008 5:38 PM GMT
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vlas said"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen F. Roberts Oh, that's good!!! |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:38 PM GMT
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jsttennis77 saidIt just happens to be my choice of God. I don't look to an organization to define God for me. Not to trifle, but if there were a God, he'd (she'd) be choosing you, not the other way around. I hear many people who believe in God explain away the various religions of the world, saying that this or that religion is not about the God THEY know exists. But really, 6 billion people with their own personal gods? My God doesn't hate homosexuals. My God is for the environment. My God is Fred Phelps. If there is a God, you'd know what he wanted you to believe, right, and there wouldn't be any discussion. |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:38 PM GMT
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Your belief system (whether theist, agnostic, or atheist) shows it's cracks when the arguments you make to defend it are self referencing. This is equally true for all of the approaches above.
Also, belief, no matter how committed, no matter how blind the faith, doesn't automatically make it true. Sheer will or faith will not alter facts. It may alter the perception and therefor allow one to rationalize.
I for one don't believe in the foolish magic that most religion relies on. Nor do I believe that lack of proof is proof in itself.
The idea that I'm the highest level of development (as part of the human race) that a sentient being can or does achieve is the height of hubris. I don't think either that there's an old white haired man sitting on a throne in the sky. I don't know if there's a collective conscious, a force, an entity that's beyond my perceptions. Not knowing doesn't imply an 'is or isn't'.
There, I said it.
Discuss.
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Apr 01, 2008 5:38 PM GMT
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Caslon saidI find people who are amazed at the existence of life are also ignorant of biochemistry. I completely disagree. Every biochemist I know is constantly amazed at the existence and beauty of life. Also, I would like to welcome all evangelicals (Christian, atheist, whatever) to post-modernity. We've been waiting for you. Catch up! Modernity was a waste of time. |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:40 PM GMT
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Park_Four saidThe idea of organized religion seems promising but the actual thing really warps what God should be. The flaw is that religions are run by people and are filled with people.
Park, you're on to something. Have you read my earlier post? |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:40 PM GMT
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Trance23 saidIf I walked around saying all homosexuals are going to hell because its god's will would that annoy you?
Now prove your gay loving version of god is any more real or correct than the gay hating god.
While on the subject of god:
First off, I don't walk around saying all homosexuals are going to hell because it's gods will, and no one I know that believes in God does either. You watch too much TV, or you have been to too many gay pride parades. Yes, there are people that do that, but they are troubled people. Don't let them get to you, and don't put me, and all other decent people in that category. BTW, I don't believe in hell, as such. I don't have to prove anything to you. I haven't asked you to prove there is no God. So have a bit of respect. Mike |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:42 PM GMT
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Park_Four saidOk Diverscience, I don’t think any of that is sad. It’s just sad to think that when you die it’s all over. That’s all. I do not pity atheists because I don’t think they’re stupid or misguided; I just wanted to ask if they hope there is life after death even though they think there isn’t. Cause that’s how I am. I think the possibility of there being life after death is minimal but I really really hope there is. I was just trying to see if anyone else shared that view. Though apparently I’m retarded in the way I asked that question. So please forgive me for that Depends on the atheist. Some hope for life after death, usually in the same way they hope they'll win a million dollars. Many, however, reframe the question. The question becomes, "what is life?" If by life after death, you mean does your consciousness continue? Your average atheist would say, no, because it's an illogical hope. As rational as hoping to win a million dollars without playing the lottery. If you mean, does something of you continue? Well... we know it does. Matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, though they can be interconverted. So your matter will continue, in another form. And the way you touch the world around you will most definitely live on after you're gone. We still remember and learn from Einstein and Ghandi and Confucius and Archimedes, despite them all being long dead. They continue to affect the world around them, even without the existence of a God or "Afterlife." |
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Apr 01, 2008 5:43 PM GMT
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Hey MikePhil!
Why don't you believe in Hell? If hell exists, does your believing or not believing have anything to do with it?
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Apr 01, 2008 5:44 PM GMT
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McGay said"Once again, mention Religion in a thread and you get a flock of nonbelievers rushing to it, like flies |
