The Civil War in the Republican Party over equal rights for gay Americans...

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 16, 2011 3:38 AM GMT
    is made very clear in this article.
    It shows what's going on within the party.

    http://www.frumforum.com/new-cpac-head-distances-group-from-goproud

    Al Cardenas, the head of the group that organizes CPAC, has some choice words for GOProud and it's members.
    He seems to feel that GOProud is acting a bit too uppity.

    It's inevitable that the Republican Party will be forced to become more inclusive of gay Americans.
    Someday - and soon - it will become as socially unacceptable for a political party to endorse anti-gay policies (which the Republican party currently does) - as it is for a political party to endorse anti-minority policies now.

    In the meantime - the Republican Civil War is likely to get rather more uncivil.
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    Feb 16, 2011 3:41 AM GMT
    This has been going on for years. The Republican party contains two logically incompatible ideologies, namely moral authoritarianism and libertarianism.

    One of them *will* have to give at some point.
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    Feb 16, 2011 3:54 AM GMT
    rickrick91 saidIt's inevitable that the Republican Party will be forced to become more inclusive of gay Americans.

    Don't hold your breath. At this annual convention CPAC reaffirmed their total opposition to gay marriage, civil unions, and gay civil rights. And the new American Civli Union (ACU) chair, that holds this convention, name of Cardenas, said that his priorities as the new ACU head will be focused on “making sure that our true friends never leave the table.” (Meaning those right-wing groups that boycotted the convention because of GOProud) As already discussed in another thread here, I don't think GOProud can expect to attend another ACU/CPAC convention again.

    Asked if someone who supported gay marriage could be a conservative, Cardenas replied, “Not a Ronald Reagan conservative… I will say this: we adopted a resolution unanimously at ACU advocating traditional marriage between a man and a woman, so that answers how we feel on the issue."
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    Feb 16, 2011 5:02 AM GMT
    TigerTim saidThis has been going on for years. The Republican party contains two logically incompatible ideologies, namely moral authoritarianism and libertarianism.

    One of them *will* have to give at some point.


    Yes. Rachel Maddow did an excellent presentation on this last week.
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    Feb 16, 2011 5:04 AM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    rickrick91 saidIt's inevitable that the Republican Party will be forced to become more inclusive of gay Americans.

    Don't hold your breath. At this annual convention CPAC reaffirmed their total opposition to gay marriage, civil unions, and gay civil rights. And the new American Civli Union (ACU) chair, that holds this convention, name of Cardenas, said that his priorities as the new ACU head will be focused on “making sure that our true friends never leave the table.” (Meaning those right-wing groups that boycotted the convention because of GOProud) As already discussed in another thread here, I don't think GOProud can expect to attend another ACU/CPAC convention again.

    Asked if someone who supported gay marriage could be a conservative, Cardenas replied, “Not a Ronald Reagan conservative… I will say this: we adopted a resolution unanimously at ACU advocating traditional marriage between a man and a woman, so that answers how we feel on the issue."




    Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath.
    lol
    But the polls show that a majority of Americans support gay rights now, and the Repubs can read the polls too.
    They realize that the days when they could win elections by hating on gays are slipping away.
    The Repubs #1 concern is always winning, and they've shown time and time again that they'll sacrifice principle for politics if they think it will help them win.
    Inevitably, the Repubs will make token gestures to show more inclusion.
    I don't think that will take long.
    They really don't have any choice.
    But true acceptance of gay Americans by the anti-gay religious right majority of the Repub party is a generation or two away.
    I hope we all live to see it.
    In the meantime, what's happening in the Republican party over gay rights is good for us.
    Bad for Republican Party unity, but good for us
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    Feb 16, 2011 5:12 AM GMT
    Which just serves to demonstrate the importance of GoProud and the Log Cabin people. They are there and in the thick of it.

    -Doug
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    Feb 16, 2011 5:34 AM GMT
    rickrick91 saidBad for Republican Party unity, but good for us

    I am less optimistic short term, though long term may hold some hope, likely after I'm gone.

    Much of Europe is moving this way, but so it was in the past, when the US lagged in important civil rights issues. Great Britain outlawed slavery before us, and gave women the right to vote first. Why are we never first on these issues? That tells me a lot.

    The US rarely leads when it comes to civil rights, we just play catch-up. We make a big deal about our Declaration of Independence, and Constitution, but seldom actually follow them in practice. Nor do we ever set precedents regarding civil rights.

    This is why much of the world disregards us today, though they once did. Because we preach, but don't practice what we say ourselves. Our Constitution has become a joke, open to any right-wing interpretation by a Republican Supreme Court, or what Teabaggers ignorantly yell on our sidewalks.

    Americans are by nature bigots. All our history tells us that. Bigoted against women, against Blacks, against minorities, against gays, against anyone who isn't a member of the exclusive "club." Please show me the exception to that. You cannot.

    This is how the US operates, and I understand that. I know how to work my way around it, pretty good at it, actually, but still a bigoted society. They outnumber me, so not a lot of choice for me. I play their game, because I have no other option.

    But I also subvert their game, as best I can. Just one guy, my influence negligible, but maybe if enough of us do that it would have some impact.
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    Feb 16, 2011 5:43 AM GMT
    meninlove said Which just serves to demonstrate the importance of GoProud and the Log Cabin people. They are there and in the thick of it.

    -Doug




    It's false to think that GOProud is just a gay advocacy group.
    They're not.
    They're a Republican advocacy group first and foremost.
    Their #1 goal is to get gays to vote Republican.
    So, while I welcome their efforts to push the Republican party to become more supportive of gay rights, the fact is that right now, getting gays to vote Republican doesn't help gay Americans - because the Republican party STILL advocates anti-gay policies and goals.
    That hasn't changed one iota.
    If GOProud were only trying to change to Republican party's POLICIES, I would completely endorse their activities.
    Unfortunately, their main effort - to try to spin gays into voting Repub - is a malignant force in this Civil War.
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    Feb 16, 2011 5:48 AM GMT
    rickrick91 saidIt's false to think that GOProud is just a gay advocacy group.
    They're not.
    They're a Republican advocacy group first and foremost.
    Their #1 goal is to get gays to vote Republican.
    So, while I welcome their efforts to push the Republican party to become more supportive of gay rights, the fact is that right now, getting gays to vote Republican doesn't help gay Americans - because the Republican party STILL advocates anti-gay policies and goals.
    That hasn't changed one iota.
    If GOProud were only trying to change to Republican party's POLICIES, I would completely endorse their activities.
    Unfortunately, their main effort - to try to spin gays into voting Repub - is a malignant force in this Civil War.

    I agree 100%. Nicely stated. Same objectives as southbeach1500 and a few others here. But I don't think there's a civil war over gay civil rights in the US Republican Party. That issue is settled -- they are totally anti-gay. Who in their party is arguing for gay rights? None that I know. icon_question.gif
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    Feb 17, 2011 7:47 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    rickrick91 saidIt's false to think that GOProud is just a gay advocacy group.
    They're not.
    They're a Republican advocacy group first and foremost.
    Their #1 goal is to get gays to vote Republican.
    So, while I welcome their efforts to push the Republican party to become more supportive of gay rights, the fact is that right now, getting gays to vote Republican doesn't help gay Americans - because the Republican party STILL advocates anti-gay policies and goals.
    That hasn't changed one iota.
    If GOProud were only trying to change to Republican party's POLICIES, I would completely endorse their activities.
    Unfortunately, their main effort - to try to spin gays into voting Repub - is a malignant force in this Civil War.

    I agree 100%. Nicely stated. Same objectives as southbeach1500 and a few others here. But I don't think there's a civil war over gay civil rights in the US Republican Party. That issue is settled -- they are totally anti-gay. Who in their party is arguing for gay rights? None that I know. icon_question.gif



    There have been a FEW who have come out publicly to urge the Repub party to become more gay-friendly.
    Barbara Bush the younger and Cindy & Meaghan McCain are the most notable and recent.
    But, the battle of ideas is going on in private, behind the scenes.
    The fact that a majority of Americans now support gay rights has put the Repubs in a quandry.
    If they continue to side with the bitterly anti-gay religious right, the Repubs risk alienating a majority block of voters who don't like the idea of hating on gays, and the Repubs will also push younger voters - who are overwhelmingly pro-gay rights - into the Democratic party.
    So, some Repub politicians and strategists feel that the Repub party needs to change with the times and become more pro-gay.
    But, MOST Repubs continue to either support the anti-gay rights agenda of the religious right, or believe that maintaining the Repub party's anti-gay agenda will net the Repub party more votes than becoming more gay-friendly will.

    The true test of what the Republican party is going to do on gay rights will come at the 2012 convention, when the Repubs will draft a new party platform.
    Will they eliminate the anti-gay policies of the current Repub party platform?
    Or will the new 2012 official Republican party platform continue to specifically state the Repub party's support for denying gay Americans equal rights?
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    Feb 17, 2011 7:53 PM GMT
    TigerTim saidThis has been going on for years. The Republican party contains two logically incompatible ideologies, namely moral authoritarianism and libertarianism.

    One of them *will* have to give at some point.


    This is very true.
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Feb 17, 2011 8:20 PM GMT
    I think the "civil war" in the Republican party was inevitable and will ultimately be a good thing. The country is becoming less and less "Anti-Gay", the Republicans who get on that bandwagon will move forward, the rest will likely be left behind.
  • roadbikeRob

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    Feb 17, 2011 9:32 PM GMT
    The "civil war" in the republican party will eventually result in the permanent rejection of anti-gay and anti-minority platforms that are currently undermining the GOP. A lot of good is going to come out of this civil war.
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    Feb 17, 2011 9:35 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidThe "civil war" in the republican party will eventually result in the permanent rejection of anti-gay and anti-minority platforms that are currently undermining the GOP. A lot of good is going to come out of this civil war.


    The republican party has been far from "anti-minority" (I don't think that's a very accurate term though in terms of current demographic projections) for years now. Virtually no fundamentalist or devout christian would take a racial stance nowadays, but would rather proclaim that all races are a part of God's family. They are far more likely to adopt some third world child than anything else. I'm not sure where everyone gets their distorted views of modern Christians as racist --- I don't know a single church or demonination that even hints in a racially prejudiced direction.

    Accepting gays is and has been the biggest issue for a while now.
  • TrentGrad

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    Feb 17, 2011 9:52 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    TigerTim saidThis has been going on for years. The Republican party contains two logically incompatible ideologies, namely moral authoritarianism and libertarianism.

    One of them *will* have to give at some point.


    This is very true.


    Well it will make for an interesting confrontation: after all, Ron Paul tends to be the main proponent of libertarian ideals among Republicans in Congress...and he even voted to repeal DADT, choosing instead to focus on the rather enlightened view that disruptive behaviour, whether same sex or opposite sex, is a greater threat than allowing openly gay military personnel to serve their country.

    However at the end of the day, if Ron Paul did end up becoming the Republican candidate for President in 2012, will his ideals remain resolute, or will we see Ron Paul, the politician?

    Libertarians are not solely under the Republican banner in the way that Christian Conservatives are.

    Would Ron Paul choose to neglect or outright ignore some of his libertarian principles in order to see the Republicans take back the Executive office? Having studied politics as long as I have, my money is on him either being willing to turn a blind eye, or losing out on the Republican nomination.
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    Feb 18, 2011 12:16 AM GMT
    I am of the opinion that to a large degree the Civil War in the Republican party will come to an end, when the 'boomers' (my age and older in their 50's and up) are out of the picture.

    There are a lot of older people who were raised to be bigoted and racist. The younger generations have far fewer raised to be that way, so hopefully things will improve. There will always be the far righters of any age group, but as generations intermingle more with the rest of the world in large part due to our exposure to the broader world from technology, I have to be optimistic about our future.
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    Feb 18, 2011 1:52 AM GMT
    TrentGrad said
    mocktwinkie said
    TigerTim saidThis has been going on for years. The Republican party contains two logically incompatible ideologies, namely moral authoritarianism and libertarianism.

    One of them *will* have to give at some point.


    This is very true.


    Well it will make for an interesting confrontation: after all, Ron Paul tends to be the main proponent of libertarian ideals among Republicans in Congress...and he even voted to repeal DADT, choosing instead to focus on the rather enlightened view that disruptive behaviour, whether same sex or opposite sex, is a greater threat than allowing openly gay military personnel to serve their country.

    However at the end of the day, if Ron Paul did end up becoming the Republican candidate for President in 2012, will his ideals remain resolute, or will we see Ron Paul, the politician?

    Libertarians are not solely under the Republican banner in the way that Christian Conservatives are.

    Would Ron Paul choose to neglect or outright ignore some of his libertarian principles in order to see the Republicans take back the Executive office? Having studied politics as long as I have, my money is on him either being willing to turn a blind eye, or losing out on the Republican nomination.




    Well, Ron Pauls' son Rand totally sold out to the mainstream Repub establishment power brokers who swooped in to clean up his act after Rand won the KY primary fight.
    Rand Paul allowed himself to be turned into just another good little God-fearing Bible-toting Christian Southern-style Republican.
    If Daddy Ron is serious about becoming the Repub presidential nominee, he'll have to submit to the same sort of makeover.
    I have a hunch that in this case it'll be - like son, like father.
    But, I think even after being made over, Ron Paul is still unlikely to get the nomination.