WI Governor is trying to remove collective bargaining from union employees

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    Feb 17, 2011 4:49 AM GMT
    This is the living end. I hope they ride this guy out of town on a rail.

    Talking Points MemoDemonstrators gathered in large numbers at the Wisconsin state Capitol on Tuesday, to protest Republican Gov. Scott Walker's budget proposal to help close the state's shortfall by removing nearly all collective bargaining rights for public employees.

    As the Wisconsin State Journal reports, over 10,000 protestors gathered at the state Capitol building Tuesday, with thousands also crowded inside the building itself.

    Under Walker's plan, as TPM has previously reported, most state workers would no longer be able to negotiate for better pensions or health benefits or anything other than higher salaries, which couldn't rise at a quicker pace than the Consumer Price Index. According to the Associated Press: "The proposal would effectively remove unions' right to negotiate in any meaningful way. Local law enforcement and fire employees, as well as state troopers and inspectors would be exempt."

    Members of the firefighters union appeared in solidarity at the Capitol event, as well, even though Walker's plan has exempted them.

    Walker has previously said that he had alerted the National Guard, in case of unrest or if crucial state services are disrupted, but he has not called them into action yet.


    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/thousands-protest-wisconsin-governors-plan-to-roll-back-union-rights.php
  • mke_bt

    Posts: 707

    Feb 17, 2011 5:02 AM GMT

    Not only that, he is threatening to call out the national guard if the protesting gets out of hand. The backlash has already started.
    He must be imagining a bunch of middle school librarians shouting Attica, Attica.

    On a more positive note Sen. Russ Feingold announced the formation of his new progressive PAC in answer to the Citizens United decision.

    Wisconsin, truly a quirky state.
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    Feb 17, 2011 5:18 AM GMT
    He's a Republican. Of course he's trying to destroy unions. And he will likely succeed.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Feb 17, 2011 5:30 AM GMT
    When faced with the realities of ...... taking from the middle class in order to give to the wealthy

    ................... Which is EXACTLY what the republican party has accomplished over the last decade
    Faced with that reality
    America will fight back
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    Feb 17, 2011 5:31 AM GMT
    lol, the whole point of a union is collective bargaining, formed usually because the employer has not bargained historically in good faith. I know lots of businesses, enormously successful ones, with no union because they would be entirely redundant.
    Bottom line for me is if your co has a union it tells me you gouged me and the person supposed to serve me as a customer. I pay good money to you; you should pay enough for me to get good service.

    -Doug

  • mke_bt

    Posts: 707

    Feb 17, 2011 5:33 AM GMT
    The teachers I know have really surprised me with their activism. My cousin who is a fourth grade teacher in rural WI has become very vocal. He has always been an independent conservative voter but this issue has really struck a chord with him. He realizes this proposal is nothing short of union busting. Personally, I think the public employee unions should contribute more to their health care premiums and pensions. Our governor is clouding the issue at hand with vindictive, divisive politics. The Police and Firefighter unions are exempt. They also endorsed the gov. Pay for play anyone?
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    Feb 17, 2011 6:03 AM GMT
    mke_bt saidThe teachers I know have really surprised me with their activism. My cousin who is a fourth grade teacher in rural WI has become very vocal. He has always been an independent conservative voter but this issue has really struck a chord with him. He realizes this proposal is nothing short of union busting. Personally, I think the public employee unions should contribute more to their health care premiums and pensions. Our governor is clouding the issue at hand with vindictive, divisive politics. The Police and Firefighter unions are exempt. They also endorsed the gov. Pay for play anyone?


    I would agree that the union member could pay a portion of their healthcare and pension benefits, but that's not the goal here. This governor wants to bust these unions and remove their ability to fight against the predations of the businesses Walker wants to lure to his state.
  • mke_bt

    Posts: 707

    Feb 17, 2011 6:13 AM GMT
    Christian73 said
    mke_bt saidThe teachers I know have really surprised me with their activism. My cousin who is a fourth grade teacher in rural WI has become very vocal. He has always been an independent conservative voter but this issue has really struck a chord with him. He realizes this proposal is nothing short of union busting. Personally, I think the public employee unions should contribute more to their health care premiums and pensions. Our governor is clouding the issue at hand with vindictive, divisive politics. The Police and Firefighter unions are exempt. They also endorsed the gov. Pay for play anyone?


    I would agree that the union member could pay a portion of their healthcare and pension benefits, but that's not the goal here. This governor wants to bust these unions and remove their ability to fight against the predations of the businesses Walker wants to lure to his state.


    I know that's not the goal. Sorry if I clouded the issue with my personal feelings. You don't need to convince me about the affects of this proposed legislation.
    The good people of Wisconsin are starting to see through this vindictive power grab proven by my own anecdotal evidence.
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    Feb 17, 2011 6:15 AM GMT
    Christian73 said
    mke_bt saidThe teachers I know have really surprised me with their activism. My cousin who is a fourth grade teacher in rural WI has become very vocal. He has always been an independent conservative voter but this issue has really struck a chord with him. He realizes this proposal is nothing short of union busting. Personally, I think the public employee unions should contribute more to their health care premiums and pensions. Our governor is clouding the issue at hand with vindictive, divisive politics. The Police and Firefighter unions are exempt. They also endorsed the gov. Pay for play anyone?


    I would agree that the union member could pay a portion of their healthcare and pension benefits, but that's not the goal here. This governor wants to bust these unions and remove their ability to fight against the predations of the businesses Walker wants to lure to his state.


    Good grief they should be paying a sizable portion, like 50%. Many unions do that up here. Many non-unions companies do too.

    -Doug
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    Feb 17, 2011 6:27 AM GMT
    mke_bt said
    Not only that, he is threatening to call out the national guard if the protesting gets out of hand. The backlash has already started.
    He must be imagining a bunch of middle school librarians shouting Attica, Attica.

    On a more positive note Sen. Russ Feingold announced the formation of his new progressive PAC in answer to the Citizens United decision.

    Wisconsin, truly a quirky state.


    What a fail. That's not what he said at all. This kind of shows where you get your "facts" from.

    As for some of those kids protesting? Those teachers should be ashamed:



    I'm not sure why public sector unions should exist anyway.
  • mke_bt

    Posts: 707

    Feb 17, 2011 6:31 AM GMT
    meninlove said
    Christian73 said
    mke_bt saidThe teachers I know have really surprised me with their activism. My cousin who is a fourth grade teacher in rural WI has become very vocal. He has always been an independent conservative voter but this issue has really struck a chord with him. He realizes this proposal is nothing short of union busting. Personally, I think the public employee unions should contribute more to their health care premiums and pensions. Our governor is clouding the issue at hand with vindictive, divisive politics. The Police and Firefighter unions are exempt. They also endorsed the gov. Pay for play anyone?


    I would agree that the union member could pay a portion of their healthcare and pension benefits, but that's not the goal here. This governor wants to bust these unions and remove their ability to fight against the predations of the businesses Walker wants to lure to his state.


    Good grief they should be paying a sizable portion, like 50%. Many unions do that up here. Many non-unions companies do too.

    -Doug


    Duh! That's the whole issue here. Collective Bargaining. The governor wants to do away with it. If he wants public employees to pay more he can wait until their contracts are up for negotiation. They will end up making compromises and know the public relations disaster they will have if they don't. You have to remember our healthcare system is a little bit different here in the States and this is one of the benifits at stake.
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    Feb 17, 2011 6:56 AM GMT
    riddler78 said
    mke_bt said
    Not only that, he is threatening to call out the national guard if the protesting gets out of hand. The backlash has already started.
    He must be imagining a bunch of middle school librarians shouting Attica, Attica.

    On a more positive note Sen. Russ Feingold announced the formation of his new progressive PAC in answer to the Citizens United decision.

    Wisconsin, truly a quirky state.


    What a fail. That's not what he said at all. This kind of shows where you get your "facts from".

    As for some of those kids protesting? Those teachers should be ashamed:

    I'm not sure why public sector unions should exist anyway.


    What didn't he say:

    Chicago TribuneMADISON, Wis. —
    Gov. Scott Walker says the Wisconsin National Guard is prepared to respond wherever is necessary in the wake of his announcement that he wants to take away nearly all collective bargaining rights from state employees.

    Walker said Friday that he hasn't called the Guard into action, but he has briefed them and other state agencies in preparation of any problems that could result in a disruption of state services, like staffing at prisons.


    As for finding four teenagers who elected to cut class and go to the protest, so what? Better than cutting class and going shoplifting.

    Finally, public sector unions exist for precisely moments like this when some right-wing yahoo gives hundreds of millions in tax breaks for wealth individuals and corporations and want to pay for them by not only screwing public workers, but by taking away their power to collectively bargain in the future. Any fiscal deficit that Wisconsin is facing is of Walker's own creation and he shouldn't be paying for it on the backs of middle class families. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Feb 17, 2011 12:11 PM GMT
    Remember the Sesame Street Game? One of these things is not like the other?

    Tahrir Square and Madison Wisconsin ....... Mubarak say hello to Scott Walker

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGEfESbGU7E94ioGMO6nK

    elbaradei-joins-protesters-in-cairo-s-ta
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    Feb 17, 2011 1:27 PM GMT
    mke_bt said
    meninlove said
    Christian73 said
    mke_bt saidThe teachers I know have really surprised me with their activism. My cousin who is a fourth grade teacher in rural WI has become very vocal. He has always been an independent conservative voter but this issue has really struck a chord with him. He realizes this proposal is nothing short of union busting. Personally, I think the public employee unions should contribute more to their health care premiums and pensions. Our governor is clouding the issue at hand with vindictive, divisive politics. The Police and Firefighter unions are exempt. They also endorsed the gov. Pay for play anyone?


    I would agree that the union member could pay a portion of their healthcare and pension benefits, but that's not the goal here. This governor wants to bust these unions and remove their ability to fight against the predations of the businesses Walker wants to lure to his state.


    Good grief they should be paying a sizable portion, like 50%. Many unions do that up here. Many non-unions companies do too.

    -Doug


    Duh! That's the whole issue here. Collective Bargaining. The governor wants to do away with it. If he wants public employees to pay more he can wait until their contracts are up for negotiation. They will end up making compromises and know the public relations disaster they will have if they don't. You have to remember our healthcare system is a little bit different here in the States and this is one of the benifits at stake.



    Actually I'm a little surprised that benefits and pension paid 100% by the employer was agreed to in the first place. I'm wondering why the employer didn't go public with this when the union in question was demanding it during contract talks in the past. In fact, I'm wondering if the employer agreed to it in lieu of wage increases etc at the time.

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    Feb 17, 2011 1:54 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidCurrent title of this thread:

    WI Governor is trying to remove collective bargaining from union employees

    What this thread should be titled if it were to be reflecting the actual facts:

    WI Governor is trying to remove some collective bargaining from state union employees




    I think he was just imitating your technique in topic titles, SB. You should be flattered.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Feb 17, 2011 2:05 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidCurrent title of this thread:

    WI Governor is trying to remove collective bargaining from union employees

    What this thread should be titled if it were to be reflecting the actual facts:

    WI Governor is trying to remove some collective bargaining from state union employees



    some?

    Do you actually read anything else besides the right wing blogs SB?
    He said he will not listen to or deal with any unions .... And said he is not bound to do so

    That's SOME some
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    Feb 17, 2011 2:29 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidCurrent title of this thread:

    WI Governor is trying to remove collective bargaining from union employees

    What this thread should be titled if it were to be reflecting the actual facts:

    WI Governor is trying to remove some collective bargaining from state union employees




    That's what we refer to as a "distinction without a difference." First, state employees, than municipal, then private sector unions. WI is part of a coordinated attack by right-wingers to take away union benefits in order to give more tax breaks to their wealthy and corporate backers.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3274

    Feb 17, 2011 3:32 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    southbeach1500 saidCurrent title of this thread:

    WI Governor is trying to remove collective bargaining from union employees

    What this thread should be titled if it were to be reflecting the actual facts:

    WI Governor is trying to remove some collective bargaining from state union employees




    That's what we refer to as a "distinction without a difference." First, state employees, than municipal, then private sector unions. WI is part of a coordinated attack by right-wingers to take away union benefits in order to give more tax breaks to their wealthy and corporate backers.



    Currently the defect in WI is a few billion. Simply there is no money and these rules regarding collective bargaining will bankrupt the state.

    Asking them to fund 1/2 of there pension seems reasonable.

    When teachers ask students to protest for there own interest is a quasi criminal act. As they are interested parties and these are minors.

    If they get injured in a riot there are they going to be responsible for those children outside of school?

    Its akin to having them wash there car or shovel the snow at the teachers house. They are minors, and when they say the "teachers brought us out here". It should be investigated.
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    Feb 17, 2011 3:42 PM GMT
    "..Simply there is no money and these rules regarding collective bargaining will bankrupt the state."

    What rules?
    Please specify. Quite frankly you have to wonder why the gov't even agreed to benefits and pensions paid 100% by the employer in the first place.

    The problem isn't rules, the problem is a concession made by the employer in the past ( agreeing to 100% funding of benefits and pensions) which was a rather assinine thing to agree to, unless it was done in lieu of wage increases etc. This is more about the ability to tear up a negotiated contract. It was tried up here. Apparently the Supreme Court looked at the violating of contracts rather dimly.

    -Doug
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Feb 17, 2011 3:49 PM GMT
    unions are in place for a vareity of reasons.

    and this govonor is one of the reasons. :icon_wink.gif

    has this union-busting governor offered to take a pay cut in order to help balance the state's budget? i am guessing "no"....icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Feb 17, 2011 4:26 PM GMT
    musclmed said
    Christian73 said
    southbeach1500 saidCurrent title of this thread:

    WI Governor is trying to remove collective bargaining from union employees

    What this thread should be titled if it were to be reflecting the actual facts:

    WI Governor is trying to remove some collective bargaining from state union employees




    That's what we refer to as a "distinction without a difference." First, state employees, than municipal, then private sector unions. WI is part of a coordinated attack by right-wingers to take away union benefits in order to give more tax breaks to their wealthy and corporate backers.



    Currently the defect in WI is a few billion. Simply there is no money and these rules regarding collective bargaining will bankrupt the state.

    Asking them to fund 1/2 of there pension seems reasonable.

    When teachers ask students to protest for there own interest is a quasi criminal act. As they are interested parties and these are minors.

    If they get injured in a riot there are they going to be responsible for those children outside of school?

    Its akin to having them wash there car or shovel the snow at the teachers house. They are minors, and when they say the "teachers brought us out here". It should be investigated.


    WI deficit is the result of Walker cutting taxes to promote a "business friendly" environment. So he created the problem he wants to solve on the backs of the union workers. As I said earlier, I agree that reform must happen, but it will not happen through demonizing middle class workers and their families.

    And who said that teachers asked students to join the protest? icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Feb 17, 2011 5:00 PM GMT
    Interesting how in this thread there has been no discussion of the context of the issues, specifically the public employee compensation increases over the past few years compared to the private sector and the comparison of total compensation between public and private sector employees for those jobs where direct comparisons can be made.

    I know the situation in California, and have heard specifics regarding New Jersey, but I am not familiar with the specifics in Wisconsin, so I will make my points as conjectures or hypotheses rather than statements.

    If the Wisconsin public employees over the past few years needed to tighten their belts the same way the private sector employees have, given the economic conditions over the past few years, then singling them out now would justify some of the comments that have been made in this thread.

    Consider the general relationship at the state and federal levels between the Democratic Party and labor unions, especially public employee labor unions. It is well known that the public employee unions have been significant supporters of the Democrats, who in turn have been very generous with the unions. There is nothing inherently wrong with this; both parties have their constituencies and providing support and receiving consideration is a fact of politics.

    The problem to some exists when this relationship leads to excesses. There are numerous studies that have been cited in the past on RJ as well as in the media about the public employee compensation exceeding that of the private sector. At the time before the November elections, the Democrats were in firm control at the federal level and in many states. Deficits were not discussed to the extent they are today. The response of some liberals on RJ, some of whom I think are employees in the public sector, when public service employee compensation was discussed was clear. They said "tough shit".

    If the Wisonsin public service employees made out better than private sector employees during the past few years, it is not unreasonable to consider adjusting excesses, especially as states don't have the funds to pay.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14336

    Feb 17, 2011 5:06 PM GMT
    I don't blame the Governor of Wisconsin for going up against these greedy, corrupt public employee unions. Most of these unionized government workers act like a yearly raise and additional benefits are an entitlement. I say bullshit to that line of thinking. Wage increases and benefits should be earned not handed on a silver platter. When are these unionized government employees going to face the harsh reality that taxpayers cannot afford all of their costly, unrealistic demands. They should be thankful that they have a full time job rather than bitching and complaining that they are entitled to more at taxpayer expense. Labor unions have obviously outlived their usefulness to American society.
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    Feb 17, 2011 5:24 PM GMT
    You know, socal is onto something, so I went and looked. A teacher in WI makes less that 50K a year and starts off at about 25k.

    On the other hand, a site enticing teachers to work in private schools boasts they pay more. It looks like they pay about the same. However, using private schools instead of a public school system may end up cost taxpayers a lot more, because they're not paying the teachers, they're paying the business, which will have its own profit margin. Teachers begin at 30k (5 k a year higher) than in the public system



    Here: http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary


    ...and here: http://www.privateschoolreview.com/articles/6
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    Feb 17, 2011 5:33 PM GMT
    meninlove said You know, socal is onto something, so I went and looked. A teacher in WI makes less that 50K a year and starts off at about 25k.

    On the other hand, a site enticing teachers to work in private schools boasts they pay more. It looks like they pay about the same. However, using private schools instead of a public school system may end up cost taxpayers a lot more, because they're not paying the teachers, they're paying the business, which will have its own profit margin. Teachers begin at 30k (5 k a year higher) than in the public system



    Here: http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary


    ...and here: http://www.privateschoolreview.com/articles/6

    You can't go by a specific example. There are studies that have looked at aggregate statistics. In the case of schools, it is very possible that some expensive private schools pay more.