Gay Christians?

  • TallSoCal

    Posts: 321

    Apr 02, 2008 9:20 AM GMT
    Yeah. So, I'm Christian. My whole family is. I grew up in church. My parents are a part of whatever church we go to. It's weird. I have nothing against that. I'm actually proud of them, but confused about myself with what the Bible and religion says about homosexuality.


    I don't think people are BORN gay or bi or whatever. Where I learned homosexuality comes from is in Psychology. And as I don't really want to explain the theories and such of it, I'll just say that I, and a lot of you, know that we can't help who we like or fall for, right?


    Out of all of the people in the world, my parents should know best that God doesn't make mistakes, and that He made me perfectly in His image....right? Well, if that's true, why do Christians try so hard to shun homosexuals? My parents took me to counseling when they found out, and after that, they would always ask "How I'm doing". I just told them that I was fine, and they'd say things like, "Well, I'm here if you need to talk." They see homosexuality (in my case) as some sort of cold that just "goes away".


    Should I just confront them and tell them that they can accept me for who I am and get over it or lose me as a son? Or is there another option? icon_eek.gif I finally came out to my brother and sister about 2 months ago. They didn't know, which was surprising. They were and are cool with it, but we don't talk about it at all, so I still kinda feel like I have to hide sometimes.


    I just really want to be happy and be myself without having to worry about the family giving me an intervention or shipping me away somewhere. icon_sad.gif I mean, if I had any gay friends, I wouldn't even be able to invite them over. I can't have girls in my room, which is confusing to me. I like guys a little more than I like girls, but you think they'd be happy for me to have a girl in my room, considering everything that's happened.


    Any advice?
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Apr 02, 2008 9:52 AM GMT
    All religions are a form of spiritual country club mentality
    where I'm going to heaven and the rest of you aren't
    It allows one group of people a false sense of superiority because an old man in the sky supposedly likes them better

    because of this they can do some really heinous stuff to one another and say they need to do it because "God" said so

    you need to be free to live your life
    if you feel that you are gay and you're more comfortable that way then just live your life
    if you're a good person and succeed in life your parents and friends will see that eventually and come to see that you are happy and fulfilled even if your gay

  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Apr 02, 2008 9:56 AM GMT
    This is going to sound strange coming from a Catholic.

    The Bible is NOT the word of God, so what it says about homosexuality is irrelevant. This is also where atheists get it all wrong. The Bible is the word of man.

    I think your parents need to understand that you are gay, and no amount of counseling will change that. If you plan to live the rest of your life close to them, then for your happiness they need to know that. If you plan to move away, say to another country, then maybe not. You could live your life with your partner or what ever, and you wouldn't need to hide it so much. If your parents are old (considering your age I doubt they are) maybe it would be too much for them.

    You should try and talk to your brother and sister about it and see what they think.

    Mike
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    Apr 02, 2008 12:25 PM GMT
    Just remember that it probably took you a few years to accept your sexuality.

    Don't expect your parents to accept it overnight.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Apr 02, 2008 12:32 PM GMT
    Aaron_Matthew saidJust remember that it probably took you a few years to accept your sexuality.

    Don't expect your parents to accept it overnight.



    Well said by Aaron.. This is certainly a part of your life.. and you are asking good questions... Why? How?, etc.
    I totally understand where you are coming from.

    You are not in a bad position at this moment. Take time for yourself to discover and explore and your parents to get used to the idea. Not all denominations are created equal and I'd encourage you to ask some questions of the Episcopal church.

    Unfortunately many religions have used "one mode of thinking" to help control and focus the masses. Homosexuality represents something that is a "threat" to that mode of thinking. Many things are. Always keep that in mind when you hear the condemning commentary. You read, listen and get facts and come to your own conclusion. Congratulations, you are well on your way.
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    Apr 02, 2008 3:53 PM GMT
    Blame your parents for your homosexuality. It comes from them. Without them you wouldn't be gay. Remind them of that when they try to blame you.
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    Apr 02, 2008 4:05 PM GMT
    Those people who are religious (regardless of what religion) HAVE to make being gay a choice and not something that your born with. It's the only way they can rationalize it as being wrong for any reason no matter how ridiculous and contrived that reason may be.

    If you are born that way (and you are), then it would be the way the god of your religion made you and therefore conflict with the teachings of that particular church.

    You can't win a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

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    Apr 02, 2008 4:08 PM GMT
    i am so lucky i was raised pagan...


    the goddess sees as a sacred offering all consensual acts of sexual pleasure. the little mountain spirit that got conflated into the ONE GOD really does have some issues to work through... small penis?

    lord, please deliver me from your followers...
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    Apr 02, 2008 5:34 PM GMT
    Hey Awemazing,

    In my opinion, spirituality, broadly speaking, should help us feel FREE to live our lives as ourselves, knowing that we are not harming anybody (including ourselves).

    Looking at Christ ENTIRELY as another human being, we could appreciate that he helped liberate people from the DOGMA that had dominated their lives. For instance, with his message, Christ liberated the prostitute from the GUILT that society had allowed her to build in her mind.

    Whether you were born gay and whether you want to participate in a particular church, be it Christian or not, you should NOT live by dogma. You are who you are and I am sure that being gay is not your essence. Whomever doesn't want to see past that element of your being, is probably missing a lot.

    Confronting your parents and assuming a "accept me or lose me" position will probably create more pain. There's no straightforward answer but I think that you might be better off by helping your parents understand whatever it is they don't understand. Maybe they have some fears? Maybe they have a negative stereotype associated with homosexuality? Maybe they've had expectations for your life and they just need to reconfigure their mindsets?

    Last yeast, I saw a movie that deals with the topic of the Bible and homosexuality. It is called "FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO". It might be a good idea to get it and watch with your parents.

    http://www.forthebibletellsmeso.org/

    Hope it helps!
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    Apr 02, 2008 5:48 PM GMT
    My parents are deeply catholic and wanted me to be a priest when I grew up. So, I can appreciate where you are coming from.

    What really helped them after a few years of being out to them, was meeting someone I was dating. He was the most horrid boy friend I have ever had, but putting a human face to the man I was sodomizing helped it be more tangible. It is easy to be angry at abstractions (homosexuality) than it is something specific (a homosexual).
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    Apr 02, 2008 5:57 PM GMT

    You are born gay? I don't agree; you aren't BORN Christian, you had to be taught and socialized religion. You had to be socialized most things in your life: how to use silver wear, how to speak English, how to obey the law, how to have Pride in your nation, how to respect others, etc: etc:. You were even taught how to be male, had your parents raised you as a girl that is what you'd think and act today, unless another learning force intervined most likely the rest of society. If you were born in the woods and raised by wolves, you wouldn't KNOW anything, you'd run all day and kill small forest animals with your bare hands and eat them, RAW. I'm not disputing that some things are instinctual, animals prove that, but for the most part, everything you know, you were taught, nothing came automatically as a result of your birth, BUT YOU WERE BORN GAY?
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    Apr 02, 2008 8:41 PM GMT
    I was raised to be straight, but I never was. If my parents tried to raise me to be blond, they could have dyed my hair. It would not make me actually blond though. I never chose this orientation. It was there before I even understood it.
    The only thing society and nurture can do is either support the person you are born as or teach you how to not be that person. No one turns gay. They either accept it when they realize it no matter how long it takes or they live in the pain of self denial.
    Acting straight is just that, 'acting'.
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    Apr 02, 2008 8:57 PM GMT
    I don't think people are BORN gay or bi or whatever. Where I learned homosexuality comes from is in Psychology. And as I don't really want to explain the theories and such of it, I'll just say that I, and a lot of you, know that we can't help who we like or fall for, right?

    I hate to disagree with you right off the bat, but the preceeding statement is likely not true. There are a lot of indications that people's sexual orientation is fixed by the time they leave the womb. Genetics and the impact of hormones the mother releases while the baby is developing in utero seem to be the causes scientists now point to. Life experiences will shape how one deals with one's sexuality but it will not likely determine it. But that is a discussion for another day.

    Now in terms of Christianity and its' problems with homosexuals, it primarily stems from some unfortunate passages in Leviticus (a grim read if there ever was one). I don't know why some Christians point to this passage in particular, since Leviticus forbids all sorts of behaviours that we cheerfully ignore. But sex with another man whom you love? NO WAY!

    MikePhil (and my own partner) have accepted being gay and are still practicing Catholics without any angst whatsoever. My partner cannot understand how a loving God and his son Jesus Christ would dislike homosexuals. I am personally not religious so these questions have never troubled me much.

    I personally would come out to my parents in your situation. I came out to my family all at once through a letter personally addressed to each. You may find this a good method I don't know. The relationship you have with your parents will determine what method you use. I personally found a letter was the good way to go in case we said things in person we would later regret. Good luck.
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    Apr 02, 2008 9:24 PM GMT
    So if people are not born gay, that must automatically mean people are not born straight? Or am I wrong? If people ARE born straight and then 'learn' homosexuality, doesn't it still sit firmly without question that one should have that raw animal instinct to insert one's penis into another's vagina?

    I was born gay, and I have tried with all my might not to be gay. I've known since I was around 7/8 FFS.

    What do you think about hermaphrodites? They are born with organs of a male and female. Are they straight or gay or lesbian? If it's possible for someone to be born as half-man/half-woman, then their sexuality could go either way right? In which case, which is the NATURAL and correct sexuality for these people?

    Thanks
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    Apr 02, 2008 9:36 PM GMT
    I'm pretty certain I was born gay. I had no way to learn my sexuality and was affected by it before I even understood it. Growing up in an Southern Penacostal church did not help matters. So I learned to act straight and suppress my sexuality.

    I can't say that I have resolved all my issues. I feel much better about myself and my faith, but it's a constant struggle. Mostly because I do believe the Bible is the word of God (with man's thoughts and his laws thrown in).
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    Apr 02, 2008 10:19 PM GMT
    As I like to ask of those whom like to inform One that sexuality is a choice: Now how old were you, when you decided to be str8, and not gay?" I'll ether get: "I didn't decide anything!" Or a glazed stare back, with no answer back. As this was not a welcome question.

    Since One has been sucking cock from the age of 5. It is easy to fob this off as, "I was created." But I now know, still I made no choice. But since I was never to get tender touch from my incubator. One was to look at this as tender touch. So One did not feel abused by these acts, done to me by a much older young man. But I now look back and know it was all so very wrong, as a child SHOULD NOT know about such things, or be doing them.

    But now One knows sexuality is innate, religion is not. It is a choice like marriage and breeding. As no-one is born pregnant, or religious.

    There is no such thing as a Catholic child, or a Mormon one, or a christian child. You go to church, under your parents force, and influence. But someday you grow up, then you have to make that Choice: (and here you stand now!) Am I goin into the priesthood, or on a Mission. As this is now your life, and not your parents. Yes some parents want to control you until you are dead.

    This is what forces to many men, into a life of a lie. I myself was too grow up, to refuse to live a lie, just to please others. Look at the abuse One has received from members at RJ. Just for talking the truth. Others whom are not as strong as One, will decide to take the easy way out, and please others. Even if this means hurting many in the long run. Like taking on a wife, and breeding.

    No. One was born a fag, a poof, a donut maker, a fug pacer, a stamp lick er. One has grown to decide not to be religious. But One does not need religion to help One too be good citizen either?

    So long as people fear death. There will always be a need for religion! But we have no say in death either! This we all have in common. We will all go back to father earth; dust to dust.

    o tell your parents. That if god did not make mistakes. The mankind would be perfect, and would have no need for repentance. Yet we are far from perfect; what is man?
  • TallSoCal

    Posts: 321

    Apr 10, 2008 4:12 AM GMT
    GuiltyGear said
    You are born gay? I don't agree; you aren't BORN Christian, you had to be taught and socialized religion.


    I agree with you. I don't believe people are born gay. It would be nice to find out why I'm the way I am, but I can't even talk to my parents about things like that. I can't say what I want in an argument because I have to "show respect" to the father that likes to yell at everything that moves. lol.
  • TallSoCal

    Posts: 321

    Apr 10, 2008 4:15 AM GMT
    akhromatos said
    Confronting your parents and assuming a "accept me or lose me" position will probably create more pain. There's no straightforward answer but I think that you might be better off by helping your parents understand whatever it is they don't understand. Maybe they have some fears? Maybe they have a negative stereotype associated with homosexuality? Maybe they've had expectations for your life and they just need to reconfigure their mindsets?



    I totally agree with everything you said. The only thing I'd have to disagree with is the fact that the "accept me or lose me" speech would cause more pain. My parents are the type of people that need to be hurt by someone they love in order for whatever it is they need to say to stick. Otherwise, it's just not important.
  • TallSoCal

    Posts: 321

    Apr 10, 2008 4:27 AM GMT
    bgcat57 saidI was raised to be straight, but I never was. I never chose this orientation. It was there before I even understood it.
    The only thing society and nurture can do is either support the person you are born as or teach you how to not be that person. No one turns gay. They either accept it when they realize it no matter how long it takes or they live in the pain of self denial.
    Acting straight is just that, 'acting'.




    I'm not saying you're wrong, and I don't mean to offend you in any way. I'm just saying I have a difference of opinion. First off, I'd like to make a comment about what you said about straight "acting".

    I don't think the word "acting" is supposed to be used as the meaning of "performing". When someone says they're straight acting, it means they're more masculine than feminine. It doesn't mean they're pretending to be someone they're not to impress or hide from people. I'm straight acting, but it's not an act. It's just who I am. I don't pretend to be anyone I'm not, ESPECIALLY for someone I don't know.
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    Apr 10, 2008 4:32 AM GMT
    Awemazing said
    I don't think people are BORN gay or bi or whatever....

    ...... I'll just say that I, and a lot of you, know that we can't help who we like or fall for, right?


    Explain how you reconcile these two statements, please.
  • TallSoCal

    Posts: 321

    Apr 10, 2008 4:36 AM GMT
    Wysiwyg60 said

    I hate to disagree with you right off the bat, but the preceeding statement is likely not true. There are a lot of indications that people's sexual orientation is fixed by the time they leave the womb. Genetics and the impact of hormones the mother releases while the baby is developing in utero seem to be the causes scientists now point to. Life experiences will shape how one deals with one's sexuality but it will not likely determine it. But that is a discussion for another day.

    Now in terms of Christianity and its' problems with homosexuals, it primarily stems from some unfortunate passages in Leviticus (a grim read if there ever was one). I don't know why some Christians point to this passage in particular, since Leviticus forbids all sorts of behaviours that we cheerfully ignore. But sex with another man whom you love? NO WAY!

    MikePhil (and my own partner) have accepted being gay and are still practicing Catholics without any angst whatsoever. My partner cannot understand how a loving God and his son Jesus Christ would dislike homosexuals. I am personally not religious so these questions have never troubled me much.

    I personally would come out to my parents in your situation. I came out to my family all at once through a letter personally addressed to each. You may find this a good method I don't know. The relationship you have with your parents will determine what method you use. I personally found a letter was the good way to go in case we said things in person we would later regret. Good luck.





    I'm gonna quote you on everything you said. I didn't know that about the birth thing. The dictionary definition of bisexuality is someone that engages in sexual relations with both sexes, right? Well, what do you call someone who likes someone based off of how they make them feel?

    For example: Me. I'm attracted to personality more than anything. Looks help, but they're not all that should matter. I could like a guy or a girl (physically and sexually) just based on how much fun we have together. I'm pretty open about that aspect of telling people, but...people just see someone with a guy as just being gay.

    I've been thinking of ways to tell my parents forever. They kinda already know, but....yeah. I just have to let them see that this is who I am, and I can't do anything about it. Trying to change would be and is (in my eyes) impossible and would cause me more unhappiness.
  • TallSoCal

    Posts: 321

    Apr 10, 2008 4:44 AM GMT
    michaelback saidSo if people are not born gay, that must automatically mean people are not born straight? Or am I wrong? If people ARE born straight and then 'learn' homosexuality, doesn't it still sit firmly without question that one should have that raw animal instinct to insert one's penis into another's vagina?

    I was born gay, and I have tried with all my might not to be gay. I've known since I was around 7/8 FFS.

    What do you think about hermaphrodites? They are born with organs of a male and female. Are they straight or gay or lesbian? If it's possible for someone to be born as half-man/half-woman, then their sexuality could go either way right? In which case, which is the NATURAL and correct sexuality for these people?

    Thanks



    I never thought about the first thing you said about people being born gay/straight. Jokingly, I believe everyone is at LEAST bi, but only some act on it. Haha. I mean, think about it: When you choose your friends, you choose friends who are somewhat attractive, right? Well, I don't know if that works with everyone, but I did a little fun survey with my friends a few years ago. They agreed. Would that mean that even straight people find other guys to be attractive?

    My friend and I talk about the hermaphrodite/transexual preference/orientation thing all the time. I can't think about it because it hurts my head, but the question still hasn't been answered. In other words, I have no idea.
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    Apr 24, 2008 10:30 AM GMT
    This is probably the first topic I've posted in, but its the first one I've seen here that seems worthwhile.

    Not by way of advertising but just to offer as a resource, I'm a member of an organization called the Gay Christian Network (GayChristian .net) and it offers a lot of answers and advise as well as networking with others in your area and around the world.

    I regards to the whole 'nature vs. nurture' debate, I know there's always a lot of scientific innuendo about finding the gay gene or the particular neural pathway that makes one develop into a heterosexual or homosexual attracted person. Whether that is the case or not, it still comes back to the fact that we are created by God and if you believe in a Creator who is actively involved in His Creation then it would stand to reason that God is already aware of your particular attraction whether it was engaged biologically or environmentally (how you were raised or circumstances that you encountered in life). I know for my own part that my parents are very much literalists and don't believe that their God would create a homosexual, so they have tried to convince themselves that something catastrophic happened to me in my childhood that I must have blocked out. Convenient but unrealistic since I was probably the most sheltered child in the world! (Home-schooled, no sports, in the country, etc)

    In regards to the straight/bi/gay issue, there is a lot that can be said about that and varying scientific efforts on the subject. I think the most substantial work I've seen is by Kinsey in the analysis and development of the Kinsey scale. Ranking the level of an individual's attraction towards each of the sexes places one on a scale from zero to 6 in terms of whether they are strictly heterosexual (zero) or strictly homosexual (6) or somewhere in between. Being a Kinsey-6 and having dated a Kinsey-3, I found for myself this to be the best effort to quantify myself. And now I'm showing my geek-side... lol

    Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read my rather lengthy post. Now you see why I don't post often.
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    Feb 15, 2009 6:37 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]Awemazing "I don't think people are BORN gay or bi or whatever. Where I learned homosexuality comes from is in Psychology."
    Awemazing, You are a total moron if you believe that bullshit. Seriously, if you TRULY believe that gay people are not born gay, then you have NO business being on this site, or any other gay site. You are just as bad as the rest of the R.W.c.N. members. (RWcN=Right Wing christian Nazi)
    Christians choose to believe that gay people choose to be gay because that would mean that their precious god or diety would have created a mistake otherwise.
    Organized religion is the root of all of hatred and biggotry that we as gay people face everyday of our lives. It all stems from religion and its teachings.
    You can respond to this, or me, if you would like to. I will not respond to anything you say. I have NO respect and ZERO tolerance for people who claim to be gay, yet believe that they CHOSE to be gay. YOU MAKE ME SICK! icon_mad.gif
    -Keith

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    Feb 15, 2009 7:02 PM GMT
    "Gay Christians?"

    Oh, great! Now, you've attracted gay lions!
    gaylion.jpg