A thought for Libya

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 20, 2011 5:40 PM GMT
    In the midst of complicated American politics which seem to fill the Politics section of this website, the map of the world is being redrawn elsewhere. I don't think many people here understand it --- I certainly don't --- but I know that it's extremely important and it deserves more contemplation than merely "how will this impact America?" or "how will this impact Israel?"

    Even as the unprecedented changes occur in the Middle East and North Africa, there is a human cost as the tyrants try to retain their power.

    This thread is for reflections on these events.
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    Feb 20, 2011 6:45 PM GMT
    *feels immense grief*

    -us
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    Feb 20, 2011 7:17 PM GMT
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12517327

    Reports vary, but it appears the security forces have resorted to overwhelming force in attempts to deter protestors. Many people have been shot and or killed while trying to bury those already dead. According to the reports, it appears that the army has even resorted to using large caliber machine guns and mortars.

    icon_cry.gif

    At this point, I hope that they don't give up.
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    Feb 20, 2011 9:17 PM GMT
    I wonder if and how deeply the CIA might be involved in any of this? Could these "popular uprisings" be financed by U.S. political and economic concerns?
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    Feb 20, 2011 9:46 PM GMT
    60isthenew40 saidI wonder if and how deeply the CIA might be involved in any of this? Could these "popular uprisings" be financed by U.S. political and economic concerns?


    You might be giving the CIA entirely too much credit, and not enough credit to several hundred million residents of the Middle East who have grown up with dictators (many of which were supported by the CIA to the tunes of billions of dollars: remember, Mubarak was "our guy" in Egypt and Bahrain is the home of the US Fifth Fleet.)
  • DCEric

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    Feb 20, 2011 10:20 PM GMT
    60isthenew40 saidI wonder if and how deeply the CIA might be involved in any of this? Could these "popular uprisings" be financed by U.S. political and economic concerns?


    Even if that were so, these things require large amounts of local support. Re: Kennedy and Bay of Pigs.
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    Feb 20, 2011 10:37 PM GMT
    60isthenew40 saidI wonder if and how deeply the CIA might be involved in any of this? Could these "popular uprisings" be financed by U.S. political and economic concerns?


    I would doubt it, just because I have trouble seeing what US political or economic interests would profit from this activity. Revolutions seem to generate spontaneously sometimes, like the wave that swept across Europe in 1848.
    I sure don't know what will be the outcome of these revolts. They seem to be fed largely by young educated men, who can't find jobs and are fed up by the despotism, corruption, and lack of economic progress. I have to feel sympathy for them. Who knows how it will end.
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    Feb 20, 2011 10:54 PM GMT
    There is also a high likelyhood that the current tyrants will be replaced by other tyrants (see Iran)
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    Feb 21, 2011 12:32 AM GMT
    I think most of us in the free world have been living free so long (obviously not just ourselves born into it but our parents and grandparents - exceeding the collective memory) that we cannot even fathom what life is actually like elsewhere.
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    Feb 21, 2011 2:31 AM GMT
    Good points one and all, thanks for the responses.
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    Feb 21, 2011 2:34 AM GMT
    sdgman saidThere is also a high likelyhood that the current tyrants will be replaced by other tyrants (see Iran)


    That is a real possibility, thanks for noting it. "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
  • HndsmKansan

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    Feb 21, 2011 2:42 AM GMT
    I watch with amazement each day as we hear more about events in some countries such as Libya, Iran, Algeria and Bahrain... haven't heard much coming from places like Morocco, Saudia Arabia, Oman or even Syria.
    Lots to come and each country will end up with differing results... some not successful... but.....
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    Feb 21, 2011 2:55 AM GMT
    I was reading developments on CNN a few minutes ago. If the army attacks the protesters, how can Gaddafi keep any moral standing. Violence will only intensify the will of the protesters. We may be looking at another Tienanmen Square situation waiting to happen, though. Hopefully not. Anyhow, this is WAAAY overdue. The general public in these countries are finally fed up. Instead of cowering in fear of their terror supporting leadership, the people are risking their skins to reclaim control of Reason in the nations they love as much as we do our own.

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    Feb 21, 2011 2:58 AM GMT
    sdgman saidThere is also a high likelyhood that the current tyrants will be replaced by other tyrants (see Iran)


    countries of the muslim brotherhood will indeed replace one tyrant with another.

    The best that the western world could hope for is good governance vs democracy. Nothing is being redrawn.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19119

    Feb 21, 2011 3:29 AM GMT
    I wish all the tyrants could be toppled as easily as the Egyptians took down Mubarak but, sadly, I don't think Libya's Gaddafi, or the royal family of Bahrain, or other leaders in some of these countries will go down as easily. There will be much bloodshed and it is very sad to watch.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Feb 21, 2011 3:31 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidI wish al, the tyrants could be toppled as easily as the Egyptians took down Mubarak but, sadly, I don't think Libya's Gaddafi, or the royal family of Bahrain, or other leaders in some of these countries will go down as easily. There will be much bloodshed and it is very sad to watch.


    Agreed.... most dictators aren't interested in much, except how to
    become increasingly wealthy at the expense of the people.
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    Feb 21, 2011 3:34 AM GMT
    Tiny Tim said -- "I think most of us in the free world have been living free so long (obviously not just ourselves born into it but our parents and grandparents - exceeding the collective memory) that we cannot even fathom what life is actually like elsewhere" . . .


    . . . oh not really, I think we in the West can very easily imagine what life would be like under the likes of you and other "liberals" . . . you are whores and liars to a man . . . you are against the Open Society, you worship the likes of Castro, and you have no compunction against imprisoning dissenters . . . and yet you fancy your hideous selves to be open minded . . .

    . . . the Libyans are victims, but of their own choosing . . . they allowed themselves to be ruled by a monster and they deserve what they get . . not one of them had the balls to murder their oppressor . . .
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    Feb 21, 2011 3:37 AM GMT
    noren saidTiny Tim said -- "I think most of us in the free world have been living free so long (obviously not just ourselves born into it but our parents and grandparents - exceeding the collective memory) that we cannot even fathom what life is actually like elsewhere" . . .


    . . . oh not really, I think we in the West can very easily imagine what life would be like under the likes of you and other "liberals" . . . you are whores and liars to a man . . . you are against the Open Society, you worship the likes of Castro, and you have no compunction against imprisoning dissenters . . . and yet you fancy your hideous selves to be open minded . . .

    . . . the Libyans are victims, but of their own choosing . . . they allowed themselves to be ruled by a monster and they deserve what they get . . not one of them had the balls to murder their oppressor . . .


    The theater of noren's own mind.

    He impresses himself.
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    Feb 21, 2011 3:40 AM GMT
    non sequiturs are not thought . . . try harder . . . it will hurt, but it is necessary for you to grow
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    Feb 21, 2011 3:56 AM GMT
    noren saidnon sequiturs are not thought . . . try harder . . . it will hurt, but it is necessary for you to grow


    Ok. non-sequiter. icon_rolleyes.gif
    "If one points a finger at the moon, the fool looks at the finger."

    Hey mensa. . . .you are missing the point. Or openly ignoring it.

    The theater of noren's own mind.

    He impresses himself.



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    Feb 21, 2011 4:14 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidI think most of us in the free world have been living free so long (obviously not just ourselves born into it but our parents and grandparents - exceeding the collective memory) that we cannot even fathom what life is actually like elsewhere.


    HndsmKansan said
    CuriousJockAZ saidI wish al, the tyrants could be toppled as easily as the Egyptians took down Mubarak but, sadly, I don't think Libya's Gaddafi, or the royal family of Bahrain, or other leaders in some of these countries will go down as easily. There will be much bloodshed and it is very sad to watch.


    Agreed.... most dictators aren't interested in much, except how to
    become increasingly wealthy at the expense of the people.


    Good points - don't mistake the recent events in Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen and Bahrain as the flowering of democracy in those countries. The freedoms we now take for granted in the west were won over many years - kings and tyrants were also overthrown in our history and the institutions we have today were not borne whole out of those revolutions, they evolved and morphed over time. We can probably, at best, hope that the overthrow of corrupt tyranical rulers MIGHT lead eventually to something that looks like people power. Then again let us take care what we wish for, we just might get it! The much despised regime in Iran was elected, (how legitimately is another whole debate), Hamas was elected in Palestine.

    While there does appear to be a sort of momentum for change across this region, each of these four countries have different histories and cultures and particular circumstances that have contributed to the current situation. Bahrain is ruled by the Sunni majority and there has always been a certain amount of unrest/disatisfaction among the significant Shia minority. Many in Egypt and Yemen are inconceivably poor and when the price of bread doubles or quadruples people starve - or march on the street.
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    Feb 21, 2011 4:34 AM GMT
    noren saidTiny Tim said -- "I think most of us in the free world have been living free so long (obviously not just ourselves born into it but our parents and grandparents - exceeding the collective memory) that we cannot even fathom what life is actually like elsewhere" . . .


    Errr... you're quoting caesarea?!?!?
  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    Feb 21, 2011 6:49 AM GMT
    I am an Israeli guy living in Chicago... so of curse I have my own bias... that being said.

    I fully support the Arab citizens protesting for their rights, it makes me SICK to see their fellow brothers in the army/police open fire at them. Some reports estimate that 250 people died in Libya just today.

    I hope after the Arab citizens succeed in the Revolution that they HANG Qaddafi, Mubarak, the Saudi royal family and anyone else involved in those massacres,
    As to the questions "how will this effect Israel/USA/West..." who gives a shit, the Arabs had enough, and all what matters now is that they are successful.
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    Feb 21, 2011 5:41 PM GMT
    It's hard for Westerners to even fathom the reality on the ground in these Arab states. When I first heard about the casualties in Bahrain, for example, I assumed the protesters had CLASHED with the army and police. However, footage uploaded yesterday showed demonstrators simply marching or standing peacefully on street corners with signs, when the army opened fire, storming these civilians completely by surprise.

    I am in awe of these demonstrators' bravery and saddened by the lack of value for human life in these states.

    If anyone from these countries ever happens to see this message, I'd like them to know that regardless of our differences, my thoughts and prayers are with them. No one should ever have to live this way.





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    Feb 21, 2011 5:50 PM GMT
    There are reports now that Col. Gaddafi has been forced to flee Tripoli, as mercenaries and helicopters continue to engage the protestors along with the army.

    The Libyan Justice minister has resigned over the attacks on protestors, and the entire UN Libyan delegation as well as several other major diplomats have called for international action against Col. Gaddafi and the government.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698